Ep 150: Author & Book Marketing in 2026 with Jenn Hanson-dePaula

Episode 150 provides the reset many authors quietly crave as Jenn Hanson-dePaula returns to help us modify (if not outright rebuild) our expectations, systems, and perspectives when it comes to book sales.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:

• How to implement a "2 sales a day" strategy.
• Becoming "profitable, not popular." (Hint: Clicks matter. Likes and views don’t.)
• The simple link path that outperform complicated funnels every time.
• The easiest daily selling you're probably NOT doing. 

We also walk through how to measure what actually moves readers, not what flatters the algorithm. Jenn breaks down clean DM workflows, repeatable content, and approaches that spark joy so you can stop force-feeding content.

We also look at the quieter parts of growth: handling criticism, building systems before you’re “big,” and treating your author life like a business, even when it still feels small.

If you want calm, clarity, and a plan that won’t chew through your energy the way I'm currently going through the pantry pack of Peppermint Patties in my freezer, this episode lands exactly where you need it.

CONNECT WITH JENN

Website: jenndepaula.com

Instagram: @jenndepaulabookm

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Chapters

• 2:04 Why Bring Jen Back
• 3:20 Expectations And Reality In Book Sales
• 9:23 Defining Goals That You Can Measure
• 16:01 The Myth Of “Runaway Bestsellers”
• 23:28 Profitability Over Popularity
• 30:03 Links, DMs, And Making Instagram Work
• 38:46 Two Sales A Day: Practical Steps
• 46:48 Emails That Sell Without Being Salesy
• 54:24 Testing Content And Repeating What Works
• 1:02:39 Consistency, Pace, And Data Windows

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 1:23

So we are at episode 150. Woohoo. 150. Jen, I, okay. So I said to myself this morning when I woke up without a plan. Um, as I do many days, okay, episode 150, I feel like it needs to not be just Liz talking about stuff. I need uh like, what am I gonna do? I thought I know exactly what I'm gonna do. It's it's Jen. It has to be Jen. So I messaged it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:49

I'm honored.

SPEAKER_01: 1:50

Well, and you're so gracious to because I was like, listen, um you available. You have a very busy schedule. So I didn't expect you to say yes, but we did I think I can't remember if it was at the beginning of 2025 or the end of 2024. I think it was the beginning of 2025. Is that your recollection?

SPEAKER_00: 2:12

I think so, because we talked about um things that we can expect and or that might be changing and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01: 2:20

Right, like what was working and 20, what what's not working, that sort of thing when it comes to author marketing. And somehow it's been a whole year. And so I said, listen, I think we need to talk about this again. And and and this is sort of like the preamble into 2026. This isn't like the official, hey, but we talked about how both you and I are getting a lot of questions and frustrations from authors who are like, What do I do? Like, I'm not selling any books. And of course, my first question is, well, when was the last time you talked about it? It's like, oh, I haven't, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 2:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 3:00

But I wanted to just kind of get a gauge from you. Is that all right? Did I say say that right? Like, do we get a gauge? I want to gauge, gay, let's gauge the situation because I wrote down a couple notes. I don't want to just talk about the same old, same old, which is pose to social media and send to your email list. Like, all those things are probably forever going to be somewhat important. And how authors do them, I think is equally important. So it can't always be self-uh-focused. But like, what are you seeing that first of all? Let's just start talking with talking about one of our favorite topics collectively, which is expectations. Yes. Are you still finding, because I am, that authors are having there's like two set segments of the industry where one segment is very focused on dollars, not so much on writing. So they're technically authors, but they're more, in my mind, they're more business people than authors. Right. And then you have the side where they might be a little bit of both, but they recognize that there's a very small profit margin on books. Right? We're not making a hundred dollars profit off of every book we sell, not by a long shot. So it's a quantity game if all you're selling is a book, which is fine, by the way. Are you still finding that authors' expectations or assumptions about what other authors are doing? Okay, so the nodding is happening.

SPEAKER_00: 4:38

Yes, absolutely. And I think too, it also comes back to I am big on thinking about a goal. Because when you think about, okay, I I want to sell more books, what does that mean? What does more mean? Right. And so when you can get very specific and say, okay, realistically, like what am I selling right now? I'm not gonna say, okay, I I want to sell 10,000 books this month when I've when I'm struggling to sell, you know, five. Right. It's going in smaller increments and thinking, okay, I want to sell 10 books this week, just for a round number. So I know I need to sell, you know, X amount of books per day. And so when you kind of take it down into smaller chunks and you think more about more strategically, how am I going to sell, you know, even two books today? Is it, you know, and I think too when authors are looking or assuming that other, you know, authors are selling tens of thousands of books, or that they're, you know, like every author on their first book sold millions of copies. Right. When that is not the case, I think educating yourself within how many books uh one of your favorite authors sold, or like how many uh books it took them before they started seeing that momentum to seeing those consistent sales. You look at like I one of my favorite examples is Kristen Hannah, because it was like her 14th book was the um The Women, the Nightingale.

SPEAKER_01: 6:28

Oh, the Nightingale. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 6:30

Because the Nightingale was really her jumping off point. And that was like book number 14. And so when we just assume like that our first book is going to be this runaway success or that that's what we're expecting, it's often this jarring realization going, oh gosh, I'm I didn't do that. And so then they think that they're a failure, right? Or that their book isn't any good. It's no, this is not, and that's also again with the the education and I think the community aspect of it, talking with other authors or you know, listening to podcasts like this, or you know, being in some sort of community where you can hear, okay, I'm struggling with this too. Or no, I did not sell a million copies of my book the first week that I was out. Yeah. You know, and that kind of thing. So yeah, I do think that expectation and just kind of realizing that you're not alone in this and that this is an industry that does take some time.

SPEAKER_01: 7:32

Time. Like I had, I was talking to somebody, an author I work with last week, and we were working on keywords for a new book that this person has coming out. And one of the first places I like to start, and I'm not going to go into a big keyword discussion, but is what's a similar book that it don't think of it as a competitor. Think of it as if you bought this, you'll also like my book. So give me a name of that. And this person said to me, Well, the the runaway bestseller in this arena is and gave me the title of the book. And I said, Okay, how do you know that's the runaway bestseller? And the answer was, Well, I have this software, and I went into it and it said that the book is doing like$20,000 a month. I said, interesting. So I also have a software that I can use for that that's called Publisher Rocket. It is not um a uh uh like an a perfect science. So even books that I I know exactly what they're making because I've written them sometimes are off high. It'll say, you know, 10,000 a month, and I'm like, wait, what? Yeah. Like, where's that money going? However, when I logged in and looked at this particular book, it was$8 a month. And I right, and I had a sense of that because the it had a very low number of reviews. And so I thought, how can this and it I looked at its sales rank on Amazon and it was, you know, in the millions, right? So it's like, how is this a runaway bestseller? And then to continue on with that conversation, because I think this is important. There was another book that was referenced that supposedly is doing incredibly well. I looked it up in Publisher Rocket. Sure enough, it was showing 19,000 in sales every month. Now keep in mind that's not 19,000 in profit. Yeah. That's 19,000 in sales. So we have to divide that by like four, and one quarter of that is approximately the the net profit. The context that was missing and is often missing is the individual who is selling that book is also running five figures of Amazon ads per month to that book. Yeah. And we know that because this program is one that this author is in. So that, and I'm putting air quotes in this case around the word author, not the one I work with, but the one who is selling the$19,000 in books, is advertising. Oh, I'm selling all of this in order to get people into their program, which I might add costs five figures.

SPEAKER_00: 10:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 10:33

It's a$10,000 program. And that is actually where they're making their money.

SPEAKER_00: 10:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 10:39

So it, they're, they're screenshotting the, hey, we made$19,000. You didn't, first of all, you didn't profit$19,000. Yeah. Your book's sold. And second of all, you probably spent$15,000 on ads. So do all the math and maybe you took home$400. But you're making all your money off of this$10,000 course that isn't working for people because it's not a feasible thing. No. That's that's in one side of the industry. And then of course, we talk about fiction writers. Um, like I've heard from a lot of fiction writers lately who are vi who are quite uh, what's the like not disillusioned, but they're frustrated. They're tired. Yeah. They're like, what so tactically, Jen, when you say, because I one of the things I love about have a goal is it keeps the author very themselves focused. So they're not even looking at what other people are doing. They're just looking at their goal. So if your goal is, I want to sell 10 books this week, and therefore let's just make it easy and say two a day, now what? Because the next question is, well, how do I sell two a day? What do I do?

SPEAKER_00: 11:45

Yes, exactly. So this is where, and I think that, you know, like especially the timing where we're at right now, if your listeners are listening to this in April of next year, you know, this it's still a starting point. I think the piece that so many authors skip over is the prep work. And I'm when I say prep work, I'm not talking about this is gonna take months of, you know, time. This is really sitting down and looking at, okay, so if you are already active on let's say social media, or if you are um, you know, going to different events and selling your book or, you know, doing in-person things, listing out all the things that you're doing to connect with people. And then you really audit it where you are looking at, okay, if I'm spending all of this time on Instagram and I am just going for more and more views, or I'm just looking for more and more likes. Likes, what I always tell authors is I want you to be profitable. I don't want you to be popular. Yes, popularity is, you know, great, but that's not going to help you sell your book all the time. You need to be profitable. And there's a different, you know, like you have to actively sell that, you know, like you have to talk about your book. And so when you go into audit, I always look at like if let's say you're on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, you know, you can go in and look at those analytics. And I am not having you, I don't want you to look at the likes. I don't want you to look at even the views. What I want you to look at are the clicks. Like, are people actively clicking on your link in the profile? Are they actively clicking, going from that outlet to your website or to wherever it is that you're leading them? Because that tells you more about what's people are that are actually taking action. So for example, like on TikTok, I think I have like 55,000 some odd followers over there. And then on Instagram, I have 30 some odd thousand. And so if someone were to look at that and go, oh, you obviously, you know, you sell more through TikTok. No, I sell, I, but like also looking at the analytics, like, and this is why it's so important to have a website. You're treating this, your, your sale, your book as a business, essentially. So having a website, so you can look at those analytics. And so I know if I was only following the number of followers that I had on an outlet, I would be all skewed because the most traffic that I get personally to my website is Pinterest. I know.

SPEAKER_01: 15:10

It makes pretty laugh because you told me that probably a year ago, and I was just like, What?

SPEAKER_00: 15:16

I know. And so you can't assume. So because when people only look at the number of followers, the number of likes, all of that, that is not automatically contributing to sales.

SPEAKER_01: 15:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:28

When I see people say, Oh, we're gonna increase your views. I'm always like, no, pump the brakes here because views don't translate automatically into sales.

SPEAKER_01: 15:40

Especially if they're not views by somebody who would even be interested. Like maybe they're watching it because it's entertaining or who knows what, just because the algorithm serves it to them or it's popular, it's gone quote quote viral. But that doesn't okay. So, question about um Instagram specifically and what you've seen work for the link in bio. So now we can have, I mean, there are all different ways people do that link. Some people just have one link, some people use the, you can now have like what, five, I think, through Instagram. Some people use a link in bio, some people use a direct themselves to a website, whatever. But how do you when someone is starting out? So you you have this great saying, start simple, get fancy later, that I've, you know, you've said to me for so long, and I now attribute it to you.

SPEAKER_00: 16:29

Well, I it's it's from Amy Porterfield, just so I can give credit where credit is due.

SPEAKER_01: 16:33

Yes, which you we you do so well and so so honestly. So start simple, get fancy later. When you're when you're starting and you just want it to be simple and you don't want to feel so overwhelmed. Let's say that Instagram is your platform that you are going to. How what do you do you recommend that people have in their um uh in their bio a link to their book and a link to their website or a link to their book and a link to maybe sign up for their email? Like what, how are you trying to um guide, how do you best guide people in terms of making this work as opposed to, like you said, just be about vanity metrics?

SPEAKER_00: 17:14

Yeah. So there are two sides to this that I would I would advise. So when it comes to which and how many links to have in your bio, first of all, if like let's say you're just starting out, you haven't, you can't afford to build a website yet, or you just you don't have that yet, that is fine. What I would encourage them to do is either um set up just a simple landing page through their newsletter service. So there's like Mailer Lite, there's Flow Desk, where you can have, you know, like a landing page. You can you can create a landing page to start growing that list, which is so important. If that kind of intimidates you, or it again, if money is a factor, Substack, I call that a great starter home. That is, you know, like if you're just getting started, you don't have like if the technical or the technical things just kind of make your mind want to blow. Yeah, it's a simple thing. It's not my favorite, but it is, you know, something to do.

SPEAKER_01: 18:15

So And you can take your subscribers from Substack later and write and move.

SPEAKER_00: 18:20

Yes, you can right now. Like that's right now. This is this is this is where, and so if someone is saying, well, what what's wrong with Substack? Substack is still rented space. Yeah. You do not own that. And so when I see people advise, I've seen some people and they're in the writing community who are telling them ditch your website and just and put everything, you know, like have Substack be your website. That is that is very dangerous land for me. You know, like I but you do you, you know, I'm never going to say you need to do this. Yes. So, but that's one thing. So figuring out where it is that you want them to land. I always, always, always tell authors, focus on the destination first.

SPEAKER_02: 19:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 19:02

Where do you want them to end up and then reverse engineer that? So for your links, some people I've heard some people ask, um, you know, like, oh, does Instagram dock you if you have more than one link? Or, you know, is is that about the they don't care. Like honestly, they're tired too. Yes. But the thing, like their main purpose is to keep, they want people to stay on Instagram or on TikTok or wherever it is.

SPEAKER_01: 19:29

So yeah, I know it's coming. Uh you know it's coming because you saw it. It's so um lately there's been this and I use it, but many chat, which is the software. A lot of people know what it does, they just don't know what it's called, where people will say, comment book if you want me to send you the link to my book. Yes. And so I use it. Um, a lot of people uh, you know, use it. Uh I I I mean, I does it work, yes. Is it as crazy as I anticip? No, like I sometimes I'm getting comments on things that were posted three months ago, and then I'll post something today and get crickets. But do you find or have you seen any data that suggests that that works better than saying link in bio? I know for a while people were doing like bio with the eye upside down. They were using an exclamation point instead of an eye because it didn't want to like trigger the algorithm that you're trying to send people off of the service.

SPEAKER_00: 20:25

So that was really more in TikTok, where you know, like they would they would say blink and Lio or like in the video or you know, something like that. But when we're talking about Instagram, I find that the link in by or the um that the many chat or prompting people to say a word in the comments. You don't like if you have a very small audience or if you just don't have a ton of engagement, having them, you know, like comment a word, you go back and see, you know, like who has left a comment and then you DM them because that prompting DMs are one of the biggest visibility tools that you can have. And so prompting them to say a you know a specific word where you can then go and DM them the link or whatever it is, because you can share multiple links in DMs.

SPEAKER_01: 21:23

Well, and the and the great point about that, because ManyChat is a paid service and it's not a super expensive service. I think it's like$15 a month. But for people who are just getting started who have to choose and they're like, I just can't absorb that, to your point, if you don't have hundreds of people commenting, yeah, then when someone comments, you can go and do that manually.

SPEAKER_00: 21:43

So that's something like if you're just looking to get started. And the thing is with many chat, also to remember like I I pay a lot more now because my audience is larger and because it's Like I get hundreds and hundreds, you know, like it's it's in rel it's in um I can't remember if it's in regards to how many p people follow you or you know it's I can't remember what it is, but it saves each person who DMs you or who c who posts the like whatever they want.

SPEAKER_01: 22:13

It saves them as like a contact.

SPEAKER_00: 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:16

Um and so as you're like I actually go in and delete all of those. Oh, good because I don't use it for anything. Now other people do, like who are a little more advanced with that level, that type of marketing. For me, I know exactly why I'm using it. And it's just to start those conversations in DM. But but if I don't go in and delete all those contacts, it will start upping my price every month because it is based on the number of air quote contacts. And I say contacts because yeah, it's not like you get their email address.

SPEAKER_00: 23:40

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 23:41

It's just their store. So I think, I think, and now this is like off the point, but you can if it's storing those contacts for you, you can then go back in and start another many chat cycle that like auto DMs everybody who's on your con, you know. So many chat knows how to reach your people on the platform, but you don't. Yeah. And that's how they kind of keep that behind that golden gate, which is why it's nice to just get them to sign up because then you have their email address that you're not beholden to I think that that definitely does it helps the visibility factor, but it also it's it removes that barrier of that extra step for people to take.

SPEAKER_00: 24:33

So if they just comment that, that you can send them the exact link that they're looking for. And right again, having some sort of just greeting where you're, you know, hey, I'm excited for you to, you know, check out these chapters. Here it is. And guess what? I'm gonna give you this other free thing too, you know, or something like that, where you're really starting to have those conversations in the DM. And yes, that definitely works more. I I would I I want to say, you know, like the link in bio is definitely important. Having some because if someone stumbles on your profile and they see, you know, they start going through it, they want to be able to find what it is that they're looking for.

SPEAKER_02: 25:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 25:16

And so that is important. But when it comes to people actually participating in the feed and participating in that conversation, if it's easy for them just to copy, you know, like just put in a word and then they get, you know, a DM, that does help your visibility. So yes.

SPEAKER_01: 25:33

Yeah. So okay, coming back to the the tactical, I want to get two sales a day, if someone came to you today and said, okay, me, I'm gonna come to you today and say, Jen, I want to get two sales today of a book that just isn't moving.

SPEAKER_00: 25:49

What do I do? So, what I would do again, once you have that information on which platform is actually getting you the most the most traction to participate in what it is that you are calling them to do. So for me, I know that that my newsletter, I know I can put out a newsletter and people respond. Like that is my tried and true. If you're just starting, it is you need to have a time of observation in okay, what is, where are people participating? So let's say it is Instagram. What I would do is going into like posting stories and seeing like, because that's where people do.

SPEAKER_01: 26:35

I know that the roll that I and it's it's no, I'm not, I'm not rolling my eyes in a negative way. I'm rolling them like, yup, because people I was like this too, Jen. Like I disregarded stories for so long, or I did the thing where I would just take a post and share it to my story, take a reel and share it to my story. And it wasn't nearly as effective as inviting some level of engagement in those stories, whether it was a link or a poll or asking a question, like but continue with what you I just wanted to clarify. I wasn't rolling my eyes like, oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00: 27:10

No, no, no, no. Because I'm the same way, because I honestly like stories exhaust me. Like for some dumb reason, they exhaust me. And so it's where if you're like, especially if you're just getting started, when you really exhaust you to uh uh consume or to create, to create.

SPEAKER_01: 27:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 27:33

Isn't that weird? And it's it's honestly like I I totally get it when people say, Oh God, I just don't like, I know, but honestly, like if that is where your audience is participating, those stories that is where you can sell every single day. Correct. Every day in your stories.

SPEAKER_02: 27:51

Correct.

SPEAKER_00: 27:52

There is a fantastic author. Her name is Janae Cecilia. She's a poet, and she is she's my go-to example of someone, like she posts poems like and other things in her feed, but every single day she is selling and she has a massive back, you know, like a uh backlist. Backs back. I was backlog. No, that's not it. But the backlist. It's Monday. It's fine. Exactly. But she like she is constantly selling books that she released five, six years ago. Like this isn't something where you can only, you know, you only need to talk about this one book. One time. But yeah, but she also has other things that she is selling. But then she also asks, hey, what should I write a poem about today? Or, you know, here's here's something that I I observed at the coffee shop. Yeah. It's very personable. And this is for fiction and nonfiction. You have got like, and I know so many authors just kind of cringe, like, well, I don't want to pester people and I don't want to. You're not. When you have something, and especially like when we're talking about nonfiction, if you are providing something, well, even with fiction, you're providing something that people are actively looking for, whether it's a problem that they're looking to be solved or an escape. You are showing, hey, this is this is what, and it's not you just showing the picture of your book, it's showing the transformation that your book provides or the feelings that your book provides.

SPEAKER_01: 29:22

Like as a storyteller, right? As right, as authors, I don't care if you're writing fiction or if you're writing about business, you are using words as a medium to reach the final consumer. So therefore, you are in some way, shape, or form a storyteller. So incorporate, I was just, it's this is crazy because I'm making, I'm actually making a carousel about this today. Because people, yeah, because people get so hung up, and I did too, on like, what do I say in an email?

SPEAKER_02: 29:56

Right?

SPEAKER_01: 29:57

Like, what do I even say beyond buy my book and also please for the love of God review it? That's that's what I hear all the time. It's not, it's actually so much more simple than people think. Once you get into the mind frame, there's a there's an author, you mentioned um Janae Cecilia. There's another author, Gillian McAllister, who's been, she's a br a you, she's in the UK. She writes, I believe she writes thrillers slash, it might be rom com. I might be screwing it all up, but I'm pretty sure she writes the thrillers. She is so on my radar right now because she's been doing all of these very uh like personal, hey, this is what it's really like to be a best-selling author. And she is, she's a New York Times best-selling, so um, but she manages to work in the the the sale in a non-salesy, non-self-promo, non-cringy way. And I believe that most cre this is one of the things that most creatives struggle with the most.

SPEAKER_00: 31:00

Absolutely. And it is what, if you're concerned about like AI, stories, experience is what sets you apart. Right. And it's not, I always tell authors, social media is about an inch deep. You do not need to go, it's not deep. You do not need to give them the magnum opus in a in a, you know, in your caption or in your your post. You're only trying to get them hooked. Then you lead them to your newsletter or to your book. That's that call to action. And when we talk about even like when you're talking about the newsletters, putting yourself in your reader's shoes and saying, if you saw a magnum opus in your new in your email, you wouldn't read it.

SPEAKER_01: 31:44

Absolutely not. I guess them.

SPEAKER_00: 31:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:47

I'm like, no, thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 31:49

And there are some, like there's um, oh, she wrote uh The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue or um of um V-E V E um not Schwab. Why am I? I've only heard the title of the book, but um I I'll yeah, but she like there is an author where once a month she sends like this massive, like very, very long email.

SPEAKER_01: 32:15

Schwab.

SPEAKER_00: 32:16

Yes, okay, it is VEB.

SPEAKER_01: 32:17

We're back, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 32:18

Where she she writes a very, very long email. And personally, like I started, I remember signing up for it and kind of just skimming the blog or skimming the the newsletter. And I was like, man, she could break this up into four newsletters and send them out once a month, you know, like once a week. So you stay at the the whole purpose, like not the whole purpose, but one of the main benefits of a newsletter is that you stay at the front of their mind and you know that it's ending up in their inbox and that they will see it. Will everyone read every single email that you write? No. No. And the click rate that for publishing, when people say, Well, I only have like 30% open rate, you are at the top end because the average rate is 21.3%.

SPEAKER_01: 33:12

But you can't even trust open rate because no, right? Because like when I'm in my inbox and I see it'll technically open, but I just hit delete, right? So I look at click rate, click. I don't look at open rate. And so go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 33:28

No, but if you get like even two or three percent click rate, that is really good. Positive. Yes, that is very good. So it's when we kind of look at the numbers, it's again educating yourself and going, okay, what is what is a good click rate? What is a good open rate? You know, like just kind of understanding that. And so when it comes to like what do I even write about, just even sharing a little. I there was one um email that I sent out just a couple of weeks ago. It was about like when I worked in the music industry and I actually had to work with a boy band, and it was during like the mall tours, and I wrote about that. And but I brought it, so there's this thing that I call it's called the art of the backdoor brag, where you're talking about one thing, but then you bring it back to what it is that you want to talk about. And so that whole thing, it brought back to this offer that I have where it was just like, and hey, you know what, PS, if you want, if you want to grab this, it, you know, click this link. Where it's a soft sell. It's not ramming it down someone's throat. Yes, there is a there is a time for a strong promotional email or a strong promotional post. But when we do, when we talk about promoting every day or, you know, like you know, talking about your book every day, that is how you bring it around to what it is. Leading with story or leading with, like if you write um a nonfiction business book, you know, talking about a client that you had, where this is how I helped them, you know, turn things around. And here's how I can help you turn things around. I have it all outlined in my book. Right. That is a very gradual sell, but it it's there's meat to it. It's not you shoving it down someone's throat. So when we talk about daily sales, that is really like one of the best ways to do it.

SPEAKER_01: 35:23

And so I'm curious, because you did mention AI and that was on my list of things, right? How much do you because I'll be very honest about my use of it, um, when it comes to coming up with ideas for promo. So what kind of success or not so much have you had when it comes to using AI to help give you some more ideas for how you can promote without promoting, like without it being so, so it's it's more of an afterthought. Like you said, it's more of a soft sell than it is uh, hi, I'm back, and today only, for you know, because there is a time and a place for that, but it's much less common than just regular person-to-person communication.

SPEAKER_00: 36:13

Yes. And so when it comes to actually seeing what works promotion-wise, this is where a little bit of testing comes in. And this is because it's different for every audience. And like there was one, I I'll speak from personal experience. Like, there was one post that I did where I thought, oh, you know, this I was sharing uh an experience of an author that I had worked with. And it was about how she was like in she didn't even go viral, but she was selling like two or three times, you know, like what other authors were selling. And so I just did this example and then I drove them to go to my free download. Yeah. And I had like over a thousand like download downloads that day. And I was, okay. And so then that was from a post. That was from a post. Okay. And so then I I looked at that and I was like, okay, I know that this works. So how can I reuse this? You know, it's not telling the same story, but it's the same approach.

SPEAKER_01: 37:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 37:19

And you just use that over and over again because you do not need to come up with 365 different posts. Right. I take like finding the top 10 that work and you recycle. Repetition is the key to marketing.

SPEAKER_02: 37:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:37

And this is something where I'm actually getting ready. This again is not to, you know, be a promotion, but I'm getting ready to release. It's like it's called um the 90-day book sales system. Uh-huh. And it's how you find those 10 to 15 key topics and you just put them through the ringer. Keep going.

SPEAKER_01: 37:56

And that can work for any genre.

SPEAKER_00: 37:58

Absolutely. And so it's really about looking at what is working for you because you can't the a big mistake that I see authors make is going, oh, well, this worked really, really well for this author. This person. So that's I'm just gonna kind of mimic that. Yep. And yeah, you can get inspiration from that, but you need to, you need to have some time where you are trying a few, you know, like if it's uh trying wording or even trying your imaging or something like that. I, Liz, the number of people that have that I've seen, like that have copied like exactly like the the colors, the the fonts, everything that I do. And I go to their posts and they get like five. There's nothing. There's nothing. Correct. It's that's not what is going to sell. Yes, it kind of sometimes it might grab their attention, but it is about the what. What is it that you're talking about and what sets you apart from other authors? And I know that that does take some introspective, you know, that um it takes some, you know, kind of digging and kind of thinking, but I promise you, if you just take that time to figure those things out, but it's also time and data.

SPEAKER_01: 39:11

So, like without saying, so people often say, well, how long will this take? And my answer is, because I, you know, I'm not the marketing person. I you're you're that, you I come to you for all of that. But but my answer before I send them to you is it's not about the time, it's about the quantity. So if you if I it would be disingenuous to say, well, you've got to look at your data over a year if someone's only posting once a month. Whereas if they're posting three times a day for an entire month, maybe you can look at the data after that. So how is there a general number or timeline? Like, do you typically say to authors, post this many times a week for this long, and then look at the data and see what is doing well or better?

SPEAKER_00: 39:59

Yes. Yes. So for minimum, when it comes to your bandwidth as an author, like the consistency factor is key. So let's say you were to say, realistically right now, for me to be consistent for a month, let's just talk a month, I can I can post twice a week. It's like, okay, then start, get your getter going with that. And then I would also add in, you know, like just pepper in some things in stories, like if we're talking about Instagram or even reels, or not real, um, TikTok, you can do stories there too.

SPEAKER_01: 40:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:35

But keeping that consistency and like once you kind of get that muscle working, this is again, it's not, you're not gonna wake up and say, I'm gonna run a marathon and immediately run it. You need to train for that. And so once you get those two posts going per week and you're going, oh, this is I can I can do this. Maybe I'll add another one. And you also want to focus on the quality of these posts. You don't want to just toss something together and you think, oh gosh, I need to. Yes. Oh, I see it all the time. Yeah. Yes. You need to be really conveying why your book is what someone is looking for. Because the thing about books is that you are not, it's not like a concert, like with a musician, people go to an event to watch this, you know, group perform live. People aren't going out to watch an, you know, an author write a book, you know, like on in groups. You're asking someone to sit down and be still and read something. No. They it's e I I will there are a lot of people that fight me on like the price point of a book. If there is someone that I, that anyone loves and they say my book is$50, and if they are just like the like special editions, anything, people will plunk the money down. What they are wanting to know is, is this book worth my time? Am I going to see what it is that I'm looking for with this book? That is where your marketing message comes from. Right. What is it that makes your book so valuable to read? And so it's when we talk about, you know, even just like the consistency factor, even if you can only just do it two times a week for a month, that will get you at least some numbers. But it is a minimum, like when someone comes back to me like three weeks after they start putting this together, they're like, nothing's happening. I'm like, I know. You need and especially if they're starting from scratch, right? You need to, I mean, two, maybe three months even. Yeah. And that is a big box. For a lot of people because they want it right away. Of course. But here yes. But there are billions of people like on Instagram. There, and it's not to say that you're you won't get there. It's the time that you, you know, it's it is going to take some time.

SPEAKER_01: 43:06

But what I love that you're saying, and you've said this before, is it's not so much you have to post four times a day or five times a day or five times a week or anything like that. If that, you know, a lot of people are like, I have a full-time job. I'm a full-time parent. I fill in the blank. I I am not able to do that. And my response is then don't. Like, can you post once a week? It might, it will, it will take longer, probably, to get that data and that traction. But to your point, if that's what you can do consistently, then do it. What I see people doing that in my experience doesn't work. And the reason I say it doesn't work is because they tell me it's not working, is they're just like, oh my God, I haven't posted something in three days. And they just share someone else's something. And then they're like, why am I not selling books? It's like, first of all, nobody even knows you've written a book because you're just sharing stuff and nobody really knows why they care. I mean, it's it's you're building, building a relationship over the internet is just, it's just weird anyway. It's just weird. And so to your point, grabbing people's attention, keeping people's attention, um forget to read a whole book, just to read a post.

SPEAKER_00: 44:27

Yes. Like it is uh but you also have to remember people are like even thinking about how you consume content, people are flying, yeah, flying through it. Yeah. And if you're like you always want to see what is going to make them stop the scroll, what is it that, you know, like and it's a combination of you know, the visual, it's like having a hook, you know, like having verbiage on the on the screen. Because also, like if you're talking about TikTok or even reels, a lot of people watch them with the sound off. So having text on there is very important. And even with if it's just captions, you know, like catching what it is that you're saying if you're doing a reel. But the thing that we always need to remember is that, you know, like we want to stop the scroll. But the the next step is that you want them to see more. Like once they see the the post or watch the reel, is there something in that caption that's going to make them want to read the caption or to go take that next step? There has to be with every single thing. The one thing I always look at when people are saying that that their social media isn't working or that they aren't selling anything, I always look, are do you have a call to action? Yeah. Do you have something where you are telling them what to do next? It's like hurting cats. Like you cannot expect them to know what it is that you want them to do or where it is that they need to find their books. Like I've had some authors who have said, well, social media doesn't work. And I'm like, well, what do you mean it doesn't work? Well, I'm not making any sales. And then I go and look and they don't even have a link in their bio. They don't have anything. Right. It's like, well, of course. They're like, right. Well, I say that it's available on like KU. It's like, they're not gonna do that. They're not gonna do that. Right. No, and they'll if they get they that requires them going to Amazon. Oh, shoot, what was her name? You know, and you can't remember that. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 46:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:30

Exactly. Yeah. So it is, you have to think leading them and being intentional about every single step. And I know that that this is like that I'm I'm speaking about this, like this is my world, and I understand what those next steps are. If you don't understand what the next steps are, that's again educating yourself. It's thinking about, okay, the end destination, I want them to sign up for my newsletter. Okay, then you need to have, you know, like where is it that you need to start? You need to have a hook. You need to um, you know, tell them um, like the messaging of the story. What is it about your book that's exactly what it is that they're looking for? And then having a call to action to go to the link in your bio or to comment a certain word. And then that gets them onto your sign-up page. So it's thinking about all of those steps. It's not just about getting more views or going viral or doing all of that.

SPEAKER_01: 47:30

Well, and I think that one thing that a lot of people are guilty of when they're in a, because I am too, when they're in a place of like self-focus, like my book isn't selling, is think about how you A, consume content and B, order books. So I right now have probably 20 books in my cart. Um, that, or or I'll see something and go, oh my gosh, I want to get that book. Jillian McAllister, perfect example. I want to get so many of her books. And every time I see her on Instagram, I'm like, I've got to order that book. And then my sourdough's burning. So I have to go deal with that and I forget. But for some reason, and I don't know what the psychological, well, other than we're human, we take it really personally when people don't make it a priority to stop everything and go order our book right now. And it's that age old someone has to see something 11 times or 13 times. And that's probably been even exacerbated now because of this brain rot situation that's happening on social media where it's like people aren't even paying attention. They're just scrolling.

SPEAKER_00: 48:47

So, to kind of contribute to the brain rot conversation, it's thinking about something that I like to kind of go back to a story about when I worked in the music industry, I did something, it was called Tour Press. And Tour Press is when a band was gonna be going on tour or gonna be going to play at a town or a city, and I would get them coverage and you know, like in magazines, newspapers, TV, all of that. And so, in order to do that, like let's say they are a brand new band, we and they were gonna go to Chicago. What I would do is I would draw an hour circumference around Chicago, and I would look all in that one concentrated little area. What were the TV shows, you know, morning shows, uh magazines, you know, online magazines, uh TV or newspaper, all of that stuff. And I would just saturate it. And they would go back to Chicago again and again and again. And then, you know, like once they had a bunch of shows there, the newspapers would be like, oh yeah, I remember that band. They're really great. You know, and so then it, but it takes that time. The same thing, if you are a new author and you're listening to this and you don't have like the idea of social media just makes you want to puke. And you are really, you have no clue where you should even start. Start small. There is nothing wrong with starting within the area of where you're at. Yeah. So even going in, like, let's say you live in St. Louis, and this is this is a real life example. I had an author who he was so frustrated. He did not want to be on social media. He was in his 50s or 60s. He wrote this historical fiction book, and it was, you know, based on one of the world wars. And he was like, I have no clue what to do. I was like, okay, where are you located? He was located in St. Louis. So I said, What is it that you love? Like when if you could do anything, you know, to talk about the subject or, you know, to meet people, what would what what is it that you would do? He said, I love talking about history. I love talking to other people who love talking about history. I was like, okay, let's look at the historical societies around your area. Let's look at your local library and see what other um, you know, like if they have any sort of historical fiction meetups or book clubs or something like that. So we just started looking at this is what he enjoyed doing for one, that brought him joy because when you enjoy it, you will show up consistently. And two, looking at what he has just in his area. And we just looked at the St. Louis area and he went to his library and oh, there's a book club that he could talk to. We do not need to hit a million people all at once with our books, or possibly ever. Exactly. Right. So focusing, looking at a small thing and look at what you can do really well because you can balloon out from there. So if you are struggling, it's don't pull back more. Zoom in on, okay, what ask yourself, what do I enjoy doing? Where do I enjoy showing up? And then what is there around me that I could participate in? Yeah, or that I could, you know, I could even reach out to them to see like libraries. I always say that is the first place you go. Librarians are a godsend. Like they will know where to put you. But even if like you write nonfiction, and let's say you have you're writing about a part of your business, or even memoir, or you know, something where you have a collection of people that even if it's like 10 people that you have either worked with or that you're connected with who know your story, starting with them and using them kind of as your launch base or to help you kind of get that conversation going. That is all you, you know, like that is really one of the best places to start because then you get that momentum going. It's like oh, you with a, if you're gonna build a snowman, you start with a little, a little hand, you know, like you just get a little bit and then you start rolling from there. You don't need to have a massive launch team, you don't need to have a massive group of people to even launch your book. Even, you know, like five, 10, 15, 20 people is great. Right. And you just start from there. Yes. You do not need, you know, 10, and this is where I I can get on my soapbox about, you know, like publishers saying, oh, you need at least 10,000 people. It's like, no, you don't. You don't need that. Right. You need even just like a good handful of people to get things started.

SPEAKER_01: 53:43

Do you think 2026 could be I'm looking for a year of calm?

SPEAKER_00: 53:48

Ooh, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 53:50

How about you? Like, I'm just I've last night I perfected my Italian sourdough.

SPEAKER_02: 53:56

Ooh. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 53:57

I think I've gone through like$100 worth of flour and ordered it. So I this thing that was supposed to be economical is somehow not. But I would like a year of good sourdough and calm.

SPEAKER_00: 54:09

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01: 54:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm just wondering if we might get there.

SPEAKER_00: 54:13

Oh. And I think that the we're like writers tend to be more introverted and like you don't want to, you know, people too much, and you just get exhausted. But we like just this weekend, Marcus and my husband and I needed like a full day of decompression because like we we peopled too much last week. And it was just like, and so yeah, it but I think it's it's simplifying. And this is the other thing, like uh something that I recognized in in going towards calm. I realized that doing like TikToks and videos, reels specifically for like um when we're talking about social media, suck the ever living life out of me. Like it was something that I it was just sucking every ounce of joy out of me. So I stopped doing them. I do carousels, yeah, and I I get great engagement. I do my once a week uh YouTube video that's also our podcast. And it's just like I am focused, I that that is enough energy for video.

SPEAKER_01: 55:25

And I I think that's also the other great point, Jen, is that just and we you've already said this, but just because something's working for someone else doesn't mean that it has to be your thing.

SPEAKER_00: 55:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 55:37

There are just as many people, because I'm in a group right now where people are trying all these different things and they're not authors, they're just they're creators of all different types. And and there are people who are like, carousels are not working for me. And then someone else will say, Well, my carousel got, you know, two million views last week. And then they'll say, Oh my God, well, how much did you sell? I sold nothing.

SPEAKER_02: 55:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 55:58

And it it and then someone else will say, Well, my reel only got 300 views, but I sold six books or I sold four courses or whatever the case is. And so I think that can send people into this tailspin of, oh, I gotta turn 180 degrees and do this other thing in order to be successful. And we lose, we lose our you. I do this end of the year thing where it's like, what did I like this year? What do I not want to do next year? What do I want to do more of next year? And lean into that.

SPEAKER_00: 56:32

Yeah, but it's also we're focusing on the wrong thing. Yeah. We're focusing on the outlet. Yes. The outlet is not the answer. No. All comes back to the content, to the what. Who is it that you're trying to talk to? I always say talk about your ideal reader and then your messaging. Those two things are the heartbeat of everything. And if you like tomorrow, I might wake up and going, I want to make videos again. And I can I doubt it, but but the thing is, is that I have this core, like I have these 15 things that I taught or like the the topics. Yep. And I can turn on a dime because I know what I'm focusing on. But and because like it was also, it was about six months ago, or even longer than that, where I realized my reels weren't convenient, like they weren't uh as like they weren't getting the amount of interaction that I was used to. I was like, okay, I I know my message is good. I'm gonna try carousels. Try something different. Yeah. But that worked. But so it's when we only look at the outlet as the answer. That's not the answer to your problems. When you know what it is, who it is that you're talking to, getting very, very specific on that, and then your messaging, making that the heartbeat of everything, then you can go anywhere. Yep. So that's when you think about where, well, if I can go anywhere, where should I go? Where you find the joy, where you want to show. Yep. And that makes you excited to show up. If you enjoy doing podcasts, if you love talking with people and you want that one-on-one, you know, like face-to-face conversation, sign up for in like some speaking events or go to some, you know, uh events or you know, different meetups and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01: 58:22

Meetup.com is really book signings at your local bookstore. Just go and be a member of the audience and raise, ask a question, or don't. Yes. Right? Just be among other people who who love books and other authors who are just out there trying to do the damn thing. It's a it's just a long game. I'm gonna say it till I'm dead.

SPEAKER_00: 58:41

Well, and with any business, this isn't even just with books. This is with any business, you have to continue to talk about it. You have to continue to, you know, and when I when some authors say, Well, I'm sick of selling it, and it's like, okay, then don't. You did then, yeah. You it's it, but it the thing is it's like I'm sick of selling it, but I still want to sell more books. You have to talk about it. Right. And like I've had some, I I understand the whole, well, I'm I'm an author. I didn't sign up to, you know, become a marketing expert. It's like, you don't have to be an art marketing expert, but no one is more passionate about your book than you.

SPEAKER_01: 59:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 59:22

Even if you're signed to a traditional publishing house, they are not more passionate about your at all. No. So because this is something, again, this is your business. I know that you're a creative person. I know that that is, you know, like kind of like acid to your ears when we talk about, you know, a business, but you have to approach it like that. Like a business. Right. Yes. Yeah. And you can't just kind of shoot from the hip with that. You have got to be intentional. And it's not when I say intentional, that does not mean it's going to take you three hours every day to do. When you can kind of plan and again keep simplify how where it is that you want to show up and, you know, like really honing in on your messaging, it's so much easier to apply because you do not, do not, do not, do not have to be on every social media outlet. You do not have to be anywhere and everywhere. I know. So it's really strip it down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:24

I'm on one, truly. Like I cross post sometimes to Facebook, but I really don't pay a lot of attention to Facebook. It's just not, not, not, not, not an enjoyable place for me to be.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:35

So when we talk about like content creation, it's you you find I focus on the long form content first, which is for me my podcast and the YouTube channel, which kind of go together. And then I break it off from there. Like, okay, what are, you know, three or four key topics that I could also use within this on Instagram.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:58

That I'll repurpose, you know, like I don't really post it to TikTok anymore, but it's just kind of like, where can I repurpose this? Oh, I can turn this into a pin for Pinterest. I can turn, you know, and so it's working smarter with that one outlet, not harder, on how you can because most reuse let's be honest, like most authors have a second job.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:19

Like for most authors, being an author is not their full time or even close to it. No. And um those who can are are blessed and lucky and they have all kinds of things going on potentially that people don't.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:32

They've also been doing it pro for probably years. They have like 10 books under their belt.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:37

Yeah. Yeah. So everyone, all that to say, everyone is trying to figure it out and manage their time and sneak it in. And so how do we sneak it in in uh a way that doesn't feel like uh yeah. Because I spend most of my day feeling like how I can't remake the sound I just made.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:59

It's very guttural.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:01

It felt I felt it in my soul, not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:04

Um, well, thank you so much for making on literally giving you like 14 minutes notice. And if we get really lucky, we'll do this much more often in 2026.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:17

That is our wish. That is our wish. No, no, it's not even a wish. It will happen, but it's one of the one of the ways that we are going to make 2026 better.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:28

And calmer. Yes. And also, this will behind me will be moving. Like I'm redoing this whole room in anticipation of said collaboration between you and me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:43

Fancy pens. Well, you are uh one of my I have to tell you, one of my favorite things. Is like when I do hop on Instagram at the end of the day and I go into my stories and I see a new project that Liz has started. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, what's this? Like you're the handiest person.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:03

No, no, no. The other day, one of my sons came in and he looked in this room. And I have, you can't see what's going on around me, of course, right? There's a ladder against the window. There's uh wood leaning up against the walls. I've got tools. I took a picture yesterday. I had my kitchen aid mixer next to my um uh finish nailer, like sitting on my look, like who I don't know. And he just walked in and he looked in my office and he just goes, Oh no. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:35

Well, one of my all-time favorite texts from you, this was a while ago, but you said something about, well, stop me before I list this up.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:45

Lizify. Lizify. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:49

It was, oh gosh. But it's but that also, you know, like kind of going back to, you know, just stories. This is it, if you think that it's silly, or you know, like, oh, who would even care about that? People can like when they see kind of behind the scenes of your windowsill, like when you're measuring out your windowsill. And it's in quasi. Yeah. But people love that. You know, you just kind of get it. Or they don't, right?

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:18

Or they don't. And and and and I think that for me, my strategy, I don't have nearly as intentional of a strategy as you would like for me to have. No. I don't. We've talked about this. Yeah. But part of my strategy is I do what I like. And I just hope that the pe because there are plenty of people who a lot of people don't talk about the unsubscribes. People don't talk about the uh oh, I signed up to get your free thing and then I just dropped off your list. People don't talk about that. It's everyone has it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:51

Everyone.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:52

Everyone has it. I have plenty of people who are like, I don't care that you're making sourdough.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:58

Why are you posting?

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:01

This is something too where like when when someone says, you know, like, oh, I want to have like 10,000 followers or whatever it is, that they reach this, you know, their their pinnacle. I say, you know, and they want it to happen right away. I always ask, are you ready for it? Correct. Oh, don't you? Because this is the separate.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:19

We'll do a whole episode on this in 2020.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:22

So that's yes, because that I think is one of the biggest misconceptions. And boy, I have some fun stories about it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:30

Boy, I have some fun stuff stories about me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:33

Like, I will wholly throw myself under the bus for this because the number of times I thought I was ready, I would have been canceled so fast because I was not ready for someone to email me and say, why do you keep selling? Who do you think you are? I was not ready. And I would not have handled it. And I'm not, I mean, for all I know, I wouldn't handle it properly today, although I feel like I'm a little more regulated, like depending on whether my estrogen's working, you know. But like I was absolutely unequivocally not ready for more money, not ready for more eyeballs, not ready for more criticism. And I I think that that is one of the big oh, we we'll do a whole episode. It's one of the biggest disservices that creators do is focusing on the dream, which we all have, but not being honest about what also comes with that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:33

And I remember it was like, oh my God, it must have been more than a decade ago. And it Bethany Frankel, who is, I I never I I she's still relevant, but I don't, she's not in my like feed or algorithm anymore. But she when she had said, listen, now that I'm at the level I'm at, my legal issues cost$150,000 instead of$3,000. And I just think that I like I get it's sort of negative to talk about that. Everybody likes to say, like, everyone the line was all the way down the street and I made 40 grand. And I it's also important in my world, it's important that someone also says, and here's what also comes with that, because I want to be prepared for that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:21

I don't want to be in a space where I'm like, oh, but I thought it was just all like cake and Taylor Swift and you know, whatever. I mean, so whole other topic. Oh, yeah. We'll have fun with some of these, I feel.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:38

Oh, yes. I definitely are good.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:41

Stories are good. Yes, you know. Um, I adore you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:46

I adore you. Thank you. Thank you. We'll thank you for coming soon.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:49

Oh my god, always. Always. And we'll yeah, just every week, please. There you go, which is something I'm working on. Yes. So um, thank you. All your stuff will be in the episode notes, and we'll talk to you again in 2026.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:03

All right.