Ep 141: From Fantasy to Memoir with Betsy Cornwell

Maid meets Under the Tuscan Sun!

Betsy Cornwell built her career writing young adult fantasy, but her newest book tells an entirely different story. In this episode, Betsy opens up about her memoir, Ring of Salt, which chronicles her escape from an abusive marriage and her creation of a sanctuary for single-parent artists.

At the center is the Old Knitting Factory in western Ireland, a historic building she transformed into a childcare-inclusive residency. What began as a crowdfunded dream became both a physical refuge and a symbol of resilience, reshaping her creative life.

Betsy also shares wisdom about the writing process itself. Teaching creative writing at the University of Galway, she knows firsthand how perfectionism derails authors and offers that waiting to write or release a book until it’s guaranteed “good” is like refusing to give birth unless you know the baby will be perfect.

This is an episode for anyone wrestling with the voice that says “not good enough.” Ring of Salt releases September 30th.

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👉 https://www.publishaprofitablebook/writethebook

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Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting Dara the Incredible Agent
• 6:11 From Fantasy to Memoir: A Writer's Journey
• 11:21 The Old Knitting Factory Project
• 19:51 Writing Through Domestic Abuse
• 30:05 Perfectionism: The Writer's Biggest Obstacle
• 39:20 Letting Go of Good and Bad

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:11

So, dara, you're delighted. She's a publicist, she's my agent and she's incredible.

Speaker 1: 1:16

Okay, so she's a doll. I mean, this was the first time I connected with her. So she emailed me, I want to say, four days ago this is real quick, and I, as anybody in the podcast space knows, I'm not, in fact, I'm probably at the low end of this. We get a lot of emails, from publicists primarily, and they're very and I've talked about this before they're quite formulaic. And then three days later we get a follow up. And then three days later we get a follow up and I don't respond to the vast majority of them because they're not well, it's just they're sent to everybody and I can tell that. And Dara's wasn't. And when I read hers I thought, oh, this sounds, I'm very intrigued, let's do this. And so then you booked immediately and I was like, oh my God, I love her for booking so fast.

Speaker 2: 2:09

And also, okay, fast research fast research, okay, yes, no, I'm sorry for springing myself on you like that and I completely understand. I was kind of also after Dara connected us, like you know, doing my own frantic research, so we'll have a very genuine chat and you know it'll all be good. But Dara has been just a gift in every way as an agent and she really. She's so committed and so in my corner and right, I've learned so much from her by example, about how to pitch people, because I think, like for many writers, it's something that I find really intimidating and I have learned so much from her about and it really is just about being genuine and thoughtful and warm and right. Making sure that somebody knows that you're not sending the same boilerplate thing to 100 people, I think makes such a big difference.

Speaker 1: 2:56

It makes such a difference and I love it. And I hear the sarcasm when I get emails that are like I've got this author I'd love to pitch. He can come on, and it's typically a he when we're talking about this and talk about how to make a million in crypto and I'm like, oh, you know what my podcast is.

Speaker 2: 3:11

Yeah, well, I used to intern for a literary agency in. It was called PARC. Now they're PARC, fine and Bauer and they're wonderful people. But I learned so much from being the person reading the submission pile and I think it's the same thing Like it is. So it's one of the things I teach.

Speaker 2: 3:28

I teach creative writing at the University of Galway and one of the things I tell my students is you know, it's such great experience to be on the other side of the desk, if you can, because you learn so much. You know it helps you remember that when you're rejected, 99% of the time it's not personal, it's just that it's like, not the right fit for what they're looking for at that exact moment. And also you realize that so much of what people see come across their desks is just clearly has not been researched at all. It is not like we would get hard sci fi submissions when, when it clearly stated on the website that that wasn't something we did, and even if it was the most brilliant sci fi book in the world and I personally love sci fi I couldn't. I couldn't bring it to the agents because it wasn't it's not what you do relevant, yeah, and it's amazing how many people you know.

Speaker 2: 4:13

So always tell my students if you can be professional, if you can write a personal note and if you are writing in the right genre for the person you're getting in touch with, you're already ahead of like 90% of people you know.

Speaker 1: 4:23

I think a lot of people don't realize that, I think it's such a simple pivot, to be honest, like just let's remember that social media, for example, is meant to be social. Let's remember that there's a human being on the other end of the email with 792 other emails to go through. So if your email can stand out, and not just by the way, by saying and this is a whole separate this is like a. This is turned into for a second here, almost not an advertisement, but a something for how to pitch, not to say oh, I just listened. I loved your interview with Betsy Cornwell about exactly what the title says. So make it clear that you, if you're going to mention it, make it clear that you actually listened to the podcast. So let's go into.

Speaker 1: 5:12

So I'm scrolling through your website and I'm in love with your book cover. I have a well-known penchant for titles and covers and I love it, and that's a purely subjective opinion, of course, but I do. And then I scroll down and I think, well, wow, she went from is it fantasy, is that your okay, fantasy to memoir. And then I scrolled down even more and I saw the old knitting factory and Betsy. I was like, oh, my, okay. So I didn't know what it was at first. Now I know what it is but at first I was like oh my God, and she knits.

Speaker 1: 5:53

She runs a knitting factory. So wherever Betsy lives, I'm moving and we're going to knit together and we're going to write some stuff. Ok, so that's not what it is. It's in, it's a writing. Well, you tell us what it is.

Speaker 2: 6:07

Yes, well, I mean honestly that, like you, come here and we knit together scenario sounds great to me. So, because I actually I do knit, but that is not relevant to what the knitting factory is. And actually when I sold my memoir it was in the proposal. The proposed title was the old knitting factory and my editor actually decided not to go with that because it heavily implied that it was a book about knitting and actually has nothing to do with it at all. I would have bought it, right? Yeah, I mean, that's same. I love knitting. That's one of the things that drew me to this building.

Speaker 2: 6:37

But anyway, so I am calling in now from the Old Knitting Factory, which is a historic knitting factory in the west of Ireland that was built in 1906. And in sort of the same effort that produced, like the Aran Islands knitwear industry and those Aran jumpers that we all love, you know, and taught local women to knit and they produced sweaters and lace and things like that. And the knitting factory eventually became the world's first Irish language cinema in the 1970s, which is very cool. I did not know there were any Irish language cinemas and it was a jewelry studio in the 1990s and then by the time I came across it in 2020, it was a little used vacation home and at the time, I had been a single mom for a few years, I had come out of a domestic abuse situation, had briefly been homeless and had developed this really intense fantasy of homeownership and of also finding a home that I could also turn into a child care inclusive arts residency space for my fellow single moms. Because, as you know, a working single mom and artist and someone who already had a publication record, you know I would hear about these writing residencies that I wished I could go on, but they were either just totally financially inaccessible or had no way to account for childcare and, and you know, and I just I just felt such longing and so I wanted to create the space that I wish I had as a single mom, you know, and so we moved into the knitting factory in 2020.

Speaker 2: 8:10

I made a rent to own agreement with the very kind and patient owner. It had been on the market for sale for a few years without any interest. It's a very sort of old, drafty house. Irish people tend to want, like you know, warm new houses, which I think is fair, but I, as an American, thought it was very romantic and, you know, developed this crackpot plan, and so over the course of the next year and a half, I crowdfunded the purchase of the Knitting Factory by talking about my story as a single mom and my hope to turn it into a retreat space for other single parents, and so the memoir that I have coming out is about it's the subtitle is a memoir of finding home and hope on the wild coast of Ireland, and that is sort of what the bigger themes are about. Really, it's about coming to Ireland, falling in love, getting married, eventually realizing I was in an abusive situation, getting out with my baby, and then this sort of long journey to finding a stable home here at the Knitting Factory.

Speaker 1: 9:41

So yeah, so it's interesting to me in the most positive of ways that you've. Is it five fantasy novels that you have out?

Speaker 2: 9:50

Yeah, so I have six, six novels out. They're all for young adults and they're either fantasy or historical fiction.

Speaker 1: 9:57

Yeah, Okay, Okay. And so to go from that to memoir, in my experience, talking to other people who have done something similar and honestly, you're the first person I've talked to who's written so many books in a different genre and then gone memoir, there's this sort of vulnerability that people. Is that word applicable?

Speaker 2: 10:19

No, absolutely Like it's been. It's like that is my buzzword. Is that your buzzword?

Speaker 1: 10:24

Okay, great, as long as it's not a wheelhouse, we're fine. Yes, right.

Speaker 2: 10:28

As long as it's not wheelhouse we're fine.

Speaker 1: 10:30

Yes, right, yeah, totally. What was your kind of pulling? What pulled you to really want to reveal those aspects of your life?

Speaker 2: 10:44

Yeah, well, there were a few things. I've always really enjoyed writing, both fiction and nonfiction. I've always really enjoyed personal essays, Like ever since I was a teenager. I took a class on personal essays and I loved it, even at the same time as I liked writing fiction and maybe especially fantasy. So that felt that did feel like home to me. Writing nonfiction, writing about my life, was not new and I had published personal essays. I'm very proud of my modern love essay that I did a few years ago, which is actually also about the knitting factory project and definitely helped me land this book deal, you know. But yeah, so I think there were a couple of things. So when I first developed this fantasy of homeownership, I thought the way into it which which, looking back now, I think it's completely irrational of me, but I thought the way into it was to buy a house to write a book.

Speaker 2: 11:29

I had this, I had you know which was bananas, but it's a path to millions, isn't it Right? Of course Doesn't everybody know. I mean right, I had already written enough books that I should have realized that that was absurd. But like, yeah, I thought if I could find a sort of weird old house that no Irish person wanted, I could write about it. And you know, because we Americans we love weird old Irish houses and thatched roofs and sheep and sweaters and things like that, so I thought I could write about it in a sort of under the Tuscan sun kind of way. And, you know, maybe someone would want to buy that book and I could use that money for a down payment or something, because I was a low income, self-employed, immigrant, single mom and I knew that no one was going to give me a mortgage, you know. And so that was my plan when I came to the knitting factory. But I sort of, and I wrote a proposal about that concept that didn't sell.

Speaker 2: 12:21

I think you know, a lot of the feedback I got was that it was too risky to buy a proposal about a story that hadn't finished yet and because I hadn't yet bought the house, I couldn't guarantee the ending of the book, which was a total catch 22 because I needed to, you know, sell the book to buy the house or buy the house to sell the book. But I was talking about this wild dream that I had online and and gradually people started getting really interested in it and it sort of organically turned into a crowdfund and that ended up being how I was able to buy the building, which I could never have dreamed of at first. But, you know, so it was telling my story and talking about my experiences as a single mom and what I wanted to be able to offer to other single parents. That was what allowed me to buy the house, but just in a completely different way than I anticipated. And after that happened, then I was able to sell this book, which is fabulous.

Speaker 2: 13:19

And so I think telling this story as nonfiction to answer your question was always built into my dream for what the project would be, and I also it was important to me to talk about my experience of single motherhood and domestic abuse and course of control honestly, because it really was hearing other survivors' stories.

Speaker 2: 13:43

That helped me to contextualize and understand what was happening in my marriage, whereas previously I had thought that I was, you know, in a complicated situation with someone who was struggling but who I loved very much, and while that is true like it was also true that there were some very clear patterns of emotional abuse and course of control that I was only able to see through hearing other people's stories, and so I wanted to be able like you know one of my if this book helps one person to sort of understand the abuse that they're dealing with, that would be kind of my highest hope for it. You know so. But exactly as you said, you know it has felt really weird having a nonfiction book come out when I'm used to having fantasy novels, even though the writing process you know, writing it was hard at times when I was writing about those harder things, but it was extremely cathartic. It was really good for me to do that writing, but I think I didn't fully process that other people are going to read it.

Speaker 2: 14:40

You know I think that was the part that I like somehow did not occur to me until like a month ago that, oh right, other people are. People are gonna read this, and it's very personal.

Speaker 1: 14:49

You know, I absolutely understand, because sometimes authors with whom I'm working, well, we'll go through the whole thing and we edit and we polish and we do all the things, and then it's time to publish and they go wait, so like this is gonna be out there now, it's like forever. Yes, that's what we've been doing, but it is kind of I wonder sometimes if our brains block that Absolutely Because it allows us. I'm wondering.

Speaker 1: 15:16

I've I've worked with and I'm currently working with, actually a couple of authors who have written about domestic violence in their own relationships, and one of the things that I think is challenging sometimes is knowing where your story ends and the other person's story begins and how do I how do I write this in a way that is helpful to other women specifically, Not to say that women are the only but women specifically and not put myself in a situation where A I'm writing with anger B I'm writing with needing validation from my reader and C I'm writing in a way that isn't going to get me sued. How did you navigate all?

Speaker 2: 16:05

of that. Yeah, I mean, those are great questions. Those are things that were at the front of my mind the whole time. Obviously, I think for me this book was first and foremost a survival tool. You know that this book was. I conceptualized it as part of the way into a stable home and life for myself and my child. And I am my child's sole financial provider, his sole caretaker, everything you know. And so I feel that telling this story, you know, like my first, my sort of silly write a book to buy a house dream. You know, like this book has helped me to finance this work that I'm doing at the knitting factory, like that did happen. And it has helped me to provide for my child in a stable way. And you know, I was a writer when I met my ex and he knew all along that I wrote personal essays and that this is part of how I make a living. And so I, you know, I hope that I have been fair to him.

Speaker 1: 17:00

It's like if you date Taylor. Swift don't be surprised if there's a Totally.

Speaker 2: 17:04

But I think, you know, I hope that I've been fair to him.

Speaker 2: 17:06

I tried really hard to be fair to him. I've also changed his name and identifying details in ways that I hope are protective, and I had a really excellent legal read process from both my US publisher and my UK publisher. Us and UK libel laws are quite different and that was really comforting to me from a sort of don't want to get sued standpoint for sure, but I think but yeah, like ethically it was important to me. You know, I think my goals in writing this book were one to provide for my child and, yeah, like I would love to live in a world where, you know, my ex and I had a healthy marriage and he was helping to provide for our child and this book didn't exist. Like it would be great if I could live in that world. But I live in a world where I am my child's sole provider and this is what I do for a living, and so if this is what I need to do to provide for my child, that trumps the feelings of other people, I feel.

Speaker 2: 17:59

That said, I did try really hard to be as fair as I could and I really did not write the book from a place of vindictiveness, and I think a lot of survivors would agree that. I think you know a lot of people who aren't survivors look at a survivor telling their story and read vindictiveness into it, when really what a survivor is asking for is just to be believed and not for anyone to hate their perpetrator or even punish them, but just they're looking for validation and looking for safety. You know, and I'm like I've had to put up various boundaries against my ex, but that doesn't mean that I think he's a demon and who doesn't deserve love or something like that. It just means that, like my child and I need protection and that's what we're asking for. And and to be believed, you know, and that's it's such a low bar, you know, but I think it's Right.

Speaker 1: 18:48

Right, it's such a low bar, you know.

Speaker 2: 18:49

but I think it's right.

Speaker 1: 18:49

Right, it's such a low bar and I think everyone's experience with this, I'm certain I don't think is different. Were there pieces where, when you wrote them out, you found I think I'm still a little more angry about this than I realized- yeah, I think there were things more angry about this than I realized.

Speaker 2: 19:12

Yeah, I think there were things. The thing that that makes me think of is there were like writing this book was a part of the healing process for me, and I think you know it's impossible for that not to be true of any kind of art that you make. I think there were things that I saw with more clarity when I wrote them down and I think there were things that I realized were more dangerous than I thought they had been at the time, because I had been sort of telling myself these stories. You know and I can't get into too much detail about that, because I did work carefully with my legal team about what to talk about and what not- to talk about so you can read the book to find out what I mean by that.

Speaker 2: 19:44

But like, but, yeah, like certainly. But I think anger, but yeah, like, certainly. But I think anger, anger isn't necessarily a bad or a toxic thing. I think I felt some healthy anger about it, that that this book helped me get through, you know.

Speaker 1: 20:00

You just created a question for me and I don't know Are there differences? Have you been advised that there are differences between what you can write about versus what you can talk about?

Speaker 2: 20:17

Well, what I was told? Is basically be careful not to talk about anything that we told you not to write about, and so there were some things that had to be edited out, and so I'm just like because I don't have the whole manuscript memorized, I think like you, know, I was just like just read the book, then you'll know.

Speaker 1: 20:31

The official word is on the page. Otherwise, let's yes, so as because you also help people with writing, do you? Do you use the word coach? I'm so tired of the word coach Betsy.

Speaker 2: 20:42

Yeah, me too actually to be honest. Yeah, I agree with you. Well, I teach. I call myself a teacher, I guess you know Okay.

Speaker 2: 20:48

So yeah, like I teach creative writing at the University of Galway I'm in my ninth year now somehow, and I it's a novel writing module, so I get third year students. It's essentially an honors course and it's their full course load for the semester. So mine is the only class that they take that semester and I basically take them through writing the first draft of their first novel. And I wrote the first draft of my first novel when I was in my third year at university.

Speaker 2: 22:08

So I always tell them that you know like I consider them real writers and that I really believe they can get these books published if they want to. And it's an intense experience for them. I have them write 5,000 words that they turn into me every week, which I'm sort of infamous for and then they have to turn in a 50,000 word draft at the end of the semester. But I do consistently see that being really good for them because it pushes them past this kind of perfectionism. And I am obsessed with the title of this podcast, by the way, because I think it's like that's essentially my whole teaching philosophy, that's what it?

Speaker 2: 22:41

is.

Speaker 1: 22:42

Look as a writing guide or whatever teacher or coach, however you want to say it, and an author. I find myself on both sides of that, because I'm telling people just write the damn thing, we'll fix it. And my own mentors and helpers, and you know so sorry to all of them, I know exactly who they are are saying the same thing to me.

Speaker 1: 23:04

And yet, when I'm on the other side as the author, I remember how it's. Just, it's for God, there's gotta be a more unique word than hard. But it's challenging, do you? When you so? Okay, I've written six nonfiction and now I'm working on my first fiction and I've said I've said before, it's like I've never written anything. When you switched from fantasy to, or when you switch from fantasy to nonfiction or memoir, does that feeling come over you? Do you almost feel as though, wow, I was a folk singer and now I'm learning how to sing, country or write pop songs?

Speaker 2: 23:45

Sure, yeah, that's a good way to put it. I mean, I think for me I feel that way with every, or I have felt that way with every book that I've written, you know, I think, and it's only like, like with every book at some point I feel like it's the worst book that anyone has ever written in the history of the world and like it's disgusting, and you know, I like I can't do it and whatever. But at least the good thing is that now I it, I'm fairly quick to recognize that that just seems to be a step in my process, you know, and so that is helpful. So I think I certainly had those moments with this book, but that didn't feel different from, like I've had that moment with all of my books. So, you know, I think, and because I've always written personal essay, like this memoir does feel in some ways like a 300 page personal essay, you know, and so I think I was familiar with the form in some ways, you know.

Speaker 1: 24:34

And I think once you've my experiences, once you've written one book, no matter the genre, you can become a person who gets to that point where you're like this is the part where so this is the part where I start to freak out. And my sister actually we were talking about, not about writing books, but we were talking about I don't know something with emotional regulation or something and she had developed this process of saying, when she got uncomfortable with something, this is the part where I freak out. So I think once we can start, it's that first way through and a lot of the authors with whom I work are first, this is their first book and they don't know that this is normal. And they don't know that authors who have written 20 books have this same thing happen in their 20th book, like what am I doing? Why did I think I could do this?

Speaker 2: 25:32

This is the worst thing ever the feeling, and that's the thing that kills me when I work with my adult clients, because I think my students, my 20 year olds, they're still sort of malleable enough that I can push them through. And also I have, they have the delightful external motivation that I will fail them if they don't do it. And so like I can't give that to my adult clients, like I can't actually do anything to them, you know, and so that's, I think, makes a big difference. But I've been thinking about like ways I could create that, that pressure for adult clients, but I haven't come up with one yet.

Speaker 1: 26:09

but anyway, Well, you know what else, and I'm so wondering what you think about this Cause. It's just. This just came when you, when you're our age and I don't know how I think I'm older than you are, but when you're in this realm. We didn't grow up with social. I didn't grow up with social media. So when I'm working with, the majority of the authors with whom I work are probably in the middle of the age range 40 plus, not there.

Speaker 1: 26:37

There are some exceptions here and there, but 40 plus, and so the idea of putting yourself on social media for promotion is like you want me to do what?

Speaker 2: 26:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Younger, like my kids, who range from 17 to 26,. That's all they do all day. Right, right, right Do you do you see that difference between your student like your students who are students, and then your adult. Sure.

Speaker 2: 27:04

Yeah, I mean I don't work as much with people on the sort of promotional end of things. I tend to work with people more on the like get your draft done and revise it, end of things, and I'm really good at helping people with query letters and things like that. But I tend to be I tend to be at the before you have an agent or an editor phase, so I don't work with people as much on marketing. I mean, one of the reasons for that is I also am very intimidated by it, so I'm probably not the best person to advise anyone about that. But we all are right. Thank you, that's. That's reassuring.

Speaker 2: 27:38

But yeah, I think what I find, as you know, for my, for my older clients, it is harder and harder as time goes on to get over that fear of writing a bad book. You know, and I think like that is really one of the reasons why I make my students do it and and that's not to say that their books are bad you know they write these brilliant things but like you need to learn that you will not die if you write a bad book. You know, and you also like one of the things I was so lucky to come across the National Novel Writing Month program in 2008, which is what made me write my first book, and I had always wanted to be a writer. I'd wanted to be a writer since I was six years old and I knew exactly six.

Speaker 2: 28:24

Oh stop. I remember looking at books on a bookshelf and being like I want to do this and that's been my path ever since. That's so cool. But yeah, I would write like 10 or 15 pages of a book and be like, oh, it's no good, this must not be my novel. You know, my novel will be something better than this.

Speaker 2: 28:40

And I, because I had been put in gifted programs and I, when I was an English major and whatever I thought of myself as a good writer and I thought, like the teachers I loved the people I looked up to thought of me as a good writer. So then I, this good writer, was writing crap and I and it was a total ego death for me, you know, and I couldn't handle it. And I think that's exactly what I see with everyone that I work with, almost without exception. And so I was so lucky to come across National Novel Writing Month, which just sort of is an experiment where you see if you can write a novel draft in 30 days, was doing an internship at a magazine that semester and so I had some sort of like free time when I was in the office and whatever. And I thought you know what? I'm just gonna see if I can do it. I've.

Speaker 2: 29:23

Just I was tired of my own bullshit a little bit at that point, and I think I'm lucky that I just got tired of my own bullshit at an earlier age than a lot of people do.

Speaker 2: 29:32

But I just thought like I wanted to see, I wanted to prove to myself that I could write a book, and I said it doesn't matter if it is the worst book in the world, I just want to prove to myself that I can do it. And it would like it will be practiced for some other book that I will write someday. And then that did turn out to be the first draft of what was eventually my first published novel. And I knew in the back of my head that I was kind of just excuse me, I'm just playing a mental trick on myself and that like, excuse me, I'm just playing a mental trick on myself and that, like, I hoped that I could do something with it someday. But I had to play that trick on myself in order to get out of my own way and write the draft. And you know, still the only way that I can write any book is to tell myself that it is only practice for some other book that I will write someday.

Speaker 1: 30:14

Or like no one's ever going to see it. That's sometimes what I have to remind myself is no one's ever going to see it. And then that's sometimes that has an opposite effect. I mean Jill Beisel, who's a friend of mine and her first novel just came out. I believe she said her first novel was like her MFA in writing.

Speaker 2: 30:33

That's how she looked at it she said yeah, that's such a good way to put it.

Speaker 1: 30:37

And last week I had Jane Hamilton, who wrote the book of Ruth and a map of the world, and I mean prolific and wonderfully talented and she said, elizabeth, I have more drafts in the drawer than anybody would believe. And I think that's the piece that I like to talk so much more about, because I just want to continue to reassure writers, authors, at any level that or any age, rather that this is part of it.

Speaker 2: 31:12

Yes, and I think that's the thing you know. Some of my older clients have a book idea that they've been marinating for decades, you know, and they think of it as their. This is their one book and I think that is such a trap, you know because, like it is.

Speaker 2: 31:26

So that is the thing that is going to one shot, right. You're going to get so twisted up about you already are so twisted up about it that it makes it so hard to write, and I would wish I I would. I would not wish on anyone that their first book is their best, like that's such a terrible fate.

Speaker 2: 31:45

So like agreed you know, a book like just, you have to have to be willing to let it be. And I like it sounds right, it sounds so facile. This is an incredibly painful and difficult thing to do, so much so that many people never do it, but you have to be willing to let your first draft be bad. You have to know that. You know every book that you love, that's out there, that you admire, is in draft. You know, and the writers you admire are also beating themselves up and feeling miserable about their drafts all the time. And like you, like you, I just wish that I could sort of like and all you know the clients I work with. They tend to be talented writers. They tend to be able to make beautiful sentences. That's not the roadblock, it's the.

Speaker 1: 32:28

It's just purely getting out of their own way and it's so hard to do, and I wish I could give that to each of them you know so Well, and there's also seemingly this belief that circulates like well, once I've written a good book see the air quotes once I've written something that's done, well, I'm kind of home free and to that I would offer look newest book. But it's just come under and whatever people think and how people react is how they react. The point is once to your point earlier of if my first book is my best, now, eat, pray, love was not her first book, it was like her ninth, right, but it was a completely different genre. She had written a completely something different before that. This was memoir, it went gangbusters and frankly it just gave critics of we're all a critic the opportunity to kind of pull her down off that pedestal. And so this is such an interesting, these are such interesting truths that we attach ourselves to when it comes to art.

Speaker 2: 33:44

No, I think everybody has fantasies about what their life will be like when they've made their good art and, like we all, we all probably need them to get by, you know. But but, right like it is the, the problem is when those keep you from getting your daily work done. You know, and I think that that's you have to let it all go Like. You have to let the hope that it will be good and the fear that it will be bad go. And actually, one of my, one of my absolute heroes is Linda Barry, who is a sort of a cartoonist and writer and artist, and she is a professor at the university of Wisconsin Madison. Now she won a Mac at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Now she won a MacArthur grant in 2019. She is like an actual genius. I love her so much.

Speaker 2: 34:29

The book that she wrote about the writing process is called what it Is, and I assign it in my class at the university every year, and she has a little comic essay in it called the Two Questions, and she said she didn't know when.

Speaker 2: 34:38

As she became an adult and became a professional artist, the two questions became the only questions she asked herself about her work, and the questions are is this good, does this suck? And as she's working, those are the only two things she's asking herself, and the only feelings she has while she's working are sort of dread and anxiety. And the only feelings she has after she's done working are relief and regret, and that she sort of mourns this joyful, uninhibited way of just making lines on paper to make a story come alive that she was able to access so naturally as a child, and that was the reason that she got into making comics and being an artist and writer in the first place. And yet when you start to think of it as your work and worry about whether it's good or bad, it dies. And so her point is that you need to let go of both of those questions. You need to be willing to sit with not knowing what you're making long enough for it to live for it to you know.

Speaker 2: 35:35

Right, exactly Like and she said. I heard her in an interview once say it's like saying you are like, you know that you are pregnant and but you're not going to give birth unless you know for sure in advance that it's going to be a really good baby.

Speaker 1: 35:49

Like you know, what a great analogy. Yeah, but at some point you have to do it. Nature's going to take over.

Speaker 2: 35:59

Yeah, exactly, so you can't hold that baby.

Speaker 1: 35:59

Not soon enough for this woman right here with number four.

Speaker 2: 36:02

No, indeed, but like right, I mean. Or I remember being too much overdue with my actual baby and being like why can't I just willpower this out? But it turns out it's not actually. You can't, actually, you can't intellectualize your way into going into labor or writing a book.

Speaker 1: 36:16

You have to you have to just live your way through it and you have to accept that you're not in control of it the whole time, and that is terrifying Me at 40 weeks and two days with my fourth child.

Speaker 2: 36:24

I was like, come on, like there's got to be a way.

Speaker 1: 36:26

My doctor kept saying at some point he's going to come out and I thought I don't think he is.

Speaker 2: 36:32

No, me too. I remember that. I remember being like videos of babies on Instagram in the middle of the night when I was a week overdue, and sobbing because I was like I'm never going to have this, my baby's never coming, which is completely insane.

Speaker 1: 36:47

This is me now. I'm just a permanently pregnant person, right.

Speaker 2: 36:52

I'm just going to walk around like this forever. And then, after he was born, I was like how did that happen?

Speaker 1: 36:55

I'm so glad you mentioned. You said her name was Linda Barry.

Speaker 2: 36:58

Yes, so happen. I'm so glad you mentioned you said her name was Linda Barry. Yes, so it's Linda with a Y L Y N D A.

Speaker 1: 37:02

Okay, I'm going to put that her book in the episode notes. I've never heard of the book. I've not. I'm newly discovering Linda and the book and I can't wait to get a copy of it.

Speaker 2: 37:12

Prepare to be delighted, it is.

Speaker 1: 37:14

I feel delighted already. I feel delighted already.

Speaker 2: 37:17

She has some amazing lectures on YouTube as well, so look her up.

Speaker 1: 37:20

Oh, good to know. Okay, so tell me. Last question I always ask is what are you reading right now Besides Linda Barry?

Speaker 2: 37:27

Oh, that's a great question yeah, so I have sort of a weird answer to that.

Speaker 2: 37:31

I'm reading Jailed for Freedom by Doris Stevens, which is a memoir of the American suffrage movement.

Speaker 2: 37:37

Really, yeah, and it's actually incredible, like I have been learning about for a future project that is not announced yet but will be soon, but I've been learning about the American women's suffrage movement and there are all these amazing heroic women who I never learned about in school, like I learned I heard Susan B Anthony's name mentioned once maybe, and that was it, you know.

Speaker 2: 38:02

And there are all these incredible women. And so, yeah, doris Stevens is a writer and activist who helped get the 19th Amendment passed, and she was jailed for picketing at the White House gates and was, you know, violently force fed in prison, was a political prisoner, and so her book is called Jailed for Freedom and it's about it's about the sort of incredible sacrifices that these women made to to get you and me to vote, and you know, as as an American living outside the US right now, like I sometimes feel very jaded about it, but this it's just been a really vivid reminder of of you know how much was done so that I have the right to help shape this country, and it's really humbling. I really appreciate it yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:47

Well, thank you for putting that book on my radar because, honestly, more often than not my guests mentioned books I I'm not aware of, and I totally such a gift. Yes, and that's how we learn about books and authors and that's how the community continues to expand and I just absolutely love. I love that aspect, yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:08

I know I completely agree and one of my favorite things about I teach writing retreats online and here in Ireland and I always ask people to bring book recommendations. That's one of my favorite things too. But yeah, jail for Freedom is in the public domain, so you can download it from Project Gutenberg or whatever, which is great, so yeah, Wow, that's wonderful.

Speaker 1: 39:26

Well, thank you so much. I can't wait to get a copy of this new book and the other book. You know my daughter. I have two daughters and they really like fantasy. So now I'm going to, they're going to discover your books through me Incredible, all kinds of exciting. So congratulations. And it comes out the 30th right.

Speaker 2: 39:47

Yes, 30th of September and I am going on a book tour sort of up and down the East coast of the U? S for the first two weeks of October, which I'm very excited about.

Speaker 1: 39:55

Why does everyone go to the East coast? I'm going to have to move to the East. I'm on the West, I'm in the West.

Speaker 2: 40:00

Okay, Well, I would go to the West Coast. If you know I were invited, so I'm happy to show up. Does my invitation count?

Speaker 1: 40:08

Yeah, right, okay. Well, I think more and more I'm going to have to spend some time on the East, because everybody's going East.

Speaker 2: 40:13

I don't know, I know it's so unfair, but my best friend lives in San Francisco, so I'm sure I'll be out in the West coast at some point.

Speaker 1: 40:19

Well, hey, the East makes sense. It is a much shorter flight than coming. You save five and a half hours.

Speaker 2: 40:25

So yes, oh, my goodness, thank you so much.