Ep 140: Writing Tips from Bestselling Author Jane Hamilton

Most authors have as big a stack (if not bigger) of abandoned drafts as they do books that actually make it into the world. Jane Hamilton—bestselling author of The Book of Ruth and A Map of the World and two-time Oprah Book Club pick—is refreshingly open about that reality.

Her newest novel, The Phoebe Variations, took nearly a decade to finish. Not because she was “blocked,” but because finding the center of a story often means writing and tossing out entire versions until one finally lands. “I wrote probably seven distinct novels before I got to what it is now,” she told me.

She talks about putting “Spanx” on her drafts while acknowledging the boxes of pages she’ll likely never read again. As I always say, those pages weren’t wasted; they were the stepping stones to the book she ultimately wrote. “I just have to make it the best failure I can,” she says, “and in doing so I get to the next place.”

For writers who may also feel stuck (*raises own hand), her perspective is freeing. Writing isn’t mechanical. It’s unpredictable and sometimes maddening. But it's always a process of discovery.

Whether you’ve read Jane’s work for years or are just meeting her now, this conversation is a candid look at the messy road to great storytelling.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Jane's Writing Journey
• 6:09 The Making of "The Phoebe Variations"
• 12:13 The Drafts That Never Made It
• 20:51 Editing Partnerships and Punctuation
• 29:41 Book Promotion: Then and Now
• 39:11 Reading Recommendations and Daily Habits

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:59

Okay, I got to figure out where to start this, because you've been doing this a long time. That's true, yeah, and I love that so much because when? So the book of Ruth, that was the first one, right, yes. And then Map of the World yes, and then one that a lot of people I hadn't even heard of the Short History of a. I had to write the Excellent.

Speaker 2: 1:26

Lombards, that's my most recent one, which was 2016.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Okay, I guess we could talk about how I hadn't heard of that you know, I don't know there's a lot to read out there and sometimes I think I'm not sure if this is true, but I feel like you know, debut novels if they bubble up to the top and get a lot of attention, and then, as the career goes on, unless you're Stephen King or you know, you might not have the kind of attention that you had initially, which, which you know, I've just been grateful to be able to continue to do the work all these years, and so I'm to me. Anything else that happens I mean, I know that sounds sort of Pollyanna-ish, but anything else that happens is gravy.

Speaker 1: 2:10

If there were ever a time to be Pollyanna-ish, it's now. And what I love about this, jane, is I talked to a couple of weeks ago Melissa De La Cruz, who's on Novel 80. But as I talked to her and I asked her, a lot of people have this perception that once you're in the machine you're good to go. And she was so transparent and honest, which I guess is one in the same, about the fact that no, that's actually not really how it works. Each book is its own unique project and requires its own to get its own traction, and I think with you, the assumption might be OK. Two time Oprah pick. I mean, I remember the fanfare about the Book of Ruth and Elizabeth Gilbert, right with Eat Pray Love, and then she does another one, but then she's got this whole backlist. I think it's an interesting point and perspective that just because a couple books do well, there might be a book to your point. There's a lot of books out there.

Speaker 2: 3:12

Also in my experience and I don't know how it was for your guest, but I've written a lot of failures that my people have said we're not going to let you publish this, and you know people complain about the gatekeepers in New York and all of that. But I'm grateful. I mean my editor and agent at the time have saved me from myself and I just am so grateful that they just said no, you may not, and so, and which is really difficult, and and yet there's sort of a balance. I mean, it's a different world, though, and I feel like in the last couple of years when I've handed in things, you know the powers that be might say you like this, but really we're interested in that, and you know, could you do more of that rather than this? And I think, but the book is this, right, you know, so there's so anyway it's.

Speaker 2: 4:08

It's hard, it's hard to to just be clear headed sometimes, but, like the Phoebe variations, I wrote a million Well, no, I wrote probably seven actually sort of distinct novels before I got to. I mean, there was always the central initiating problem, but I had all kinds of crazy plots and and at a certain point my then agent said Jane, and this is totally fair on her part. Totally fair Cause I think she had read it so many times, like 10 or 12. She said I will not read this book again, okay meaning like change it drastically.

Speaker 1: 4:49

No, it's over it's over.

Speaker 2: 4:52

I'm never going to read another version of this. Ever is what she said. And you know I thought at that point, if I can't make this book work about a girl who goes and hides in a basement with 12 boys overhead and the crazy mommies, then I need to retire. But it was just for me. It was a matter of actually narrowing the focus and just concentrating on that house and that family and those girls relationship.

Speaker 2: 5:21

I had sort of you know, at the beginning it was about gender stuff and I just had to put like Spanx on it.

Speaker 1: 5:28

Fantastic, I had to put Spanx on it, okay.

Speaker 2: 5:32

I did, I did, I did so, um and and all that, to say that my you know, my then agent was I, I, she was so generous with me and read so many versions. Yeah, she just couldn't anymore, and I understand that.

Speaker 1: 5:46

So did you take what is now the Phoebe variations to another agent entirely?

Speaker 2: 5:50

I mean, I rewrote it, I worked on it, I worked, worked, worked, worked, worked. And then there came a time to find another agent and I was very fortunate in finding somebody who just was like yes.

Speaker 1: 6:02

Is it wrong that, as I continue to talk to more and more authors, I really enjoy not because I enjoy people's pain, because I don't at all I enjoy. It doesn't sound good if I don't phrase it correctly, but I so enjoy hearing people like yourself, who have written just some truly brilliant pieces of work, say, yeah, there were a lot that never made it out of the gate. I think it's such a huge misconception in this world.

Speaker 2: 6:35

It's interesting. I mean, I have boxes and boxes of the drafts that didn't work out and it's very painful to look at them. I thought I should go back and see what's there, because I actually don't remember all the iterations. And you know, I open up the boxes and I have to say there's some good writing in those pages. And you know some people say, oh, nothing is ever wasted, you can always. I'm one of those people. Well, you know, for me, when I'm writing something that I am pretty sure isn't going to work out, I just have to make it the best failure I can, and in doing so I get to the next place and it's very, very inefficient. I should just be able to do this mentally, but I just have to type and just, and then things fall into it. But really I just I have kind of made a rule for myself now that I I'm not going to look in those boxes, cause it's just, it's painful, all of that all of that work that didn't work.

Speaker 1: 7:35

When I say no writing is wasted, I don't mean that you should be able to usurp it later and use every line somewhere. I just mean that the writing of it is what ultimately got you to whatever you ended up writing Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 1: 7:51

That's what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm at about, I think, chapter six of the Phoebe Variations and when a book grabs me from, I have a, it's a very bad habit, it's a great habit, but it's turned out to be terrible, and here's why. So when I know I'm going to, when I know I'm having someone on the show, I am not a fast reader. I'm not Zibi. Zibi posted the other day to her Instagram that she has five interviews today Jane and all five books where she's like this is what I, it was yesterday. She, jane and all five books where she's like this is what it was yesterday. She's like this is what I'm doing today, reading all five. I know she has a process, I know she's not absorbing every word, but still the idea it makes me feel so incompetent. I can't get this done. But I'm not a fast reader. It's just I'm not.

Speaker 1: 8:40

Lots of times when people book and they're coming on like you, you, it was like nine days from the time that I, we did all this. So I get the book and I know I can't get through it all. So I say I'm going to just read the first chapter so I have a sense of it, and then nine and a half times out of 10, I can't stop. So now I am fully immersed in Phoebe Greta, all the people, and my question is can you talk to us about chapter one like the process of chapter one, not necessarily the specific chapter one of this book, but was this always the chapter one? This?

Speaker 2: 9:22

was always the chapter one. Okay, okay, yes. And in that chapter one, the adoptive mother of Phoebe says you know, we're going to take a trip and you're going to meet your birth family, right? And Phoebe's like why I don't want to? So that was always the beginning and also the thing that happens when they do visit the birth family was always there, so not there yet Don't spoil anything.

Speaker 1: 9:49

Oh, I think you are. We're arriving, they're driving and it's in the front seat with Greta. Okay, okay.

Speaker 2: 9:57

I've lost. I lost track of that, but yes yes, so that inciting incident was always, always there. So I mean what?

Speaker 2: 10:09

wasn't there, I don't know, at one point. Well, I won't bore you with all of it, no, I love this part of it, but at one point let's see if I can even remember, I think it's. Is it Phoebe or Luna? I guess it's Luna, who wasn't called that at that point is dying and she comes back to chicago and phoebe takes care of her, and then they reflect upon the past. Wait, wait, does that happen? Because no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Talking, no, no. There's no universe in this, in this real world order, in which that happens but in that version of it was phoebe adopted.

Speaker 1: 10:44

Had phoebe been adopted?

Speaker 2: 10:45

the whole beginning is the same, but then, but. And then there was another version where phoebe was the assistant to a comedy duo very like jerry stiller and ann mira, and she lived with them and she had a affair with their teenage son. I mean it, it just, it, just but. But here's the thing.

Speaker 1: 11:05

Okay. So I see this is really taking a stretch here of liberties, but I see myself in you because or I see you in me or something, because I'm working on my first novel now, which I have not made a secret of, and it's a nightmare, jane. It's a nightmare. You're the first person who's ever said kind of what I feel like is going on with my brain, where there are like 97 stories, 97 possibilities. I've got this main character and everything you just said without turning the spotlight here on me. How do you ultimately like decide on one to at least take to the next step?

Speaker 2: 11:42

Well, elizabeth, it can take a long time, you know, and and. But here's the thing, here's, here's, here's what I know to be absolutely true, that I've just told you that all these versions, many, many versions, had the same beginning. And when you, when you, so, when you get through the end of perhaps the first thing, that doesn't work, and every book is different. Some of them just come out as if on one breath, but some of them don't. It's so, so important to just open all your follicles and look at the work, because what you have set in place in the beginning is everything is there in the beginning, and if you see it and you can follow through on that, then you will have an easier time. And maybe that doesn't make sense, but really you have to really listen to what the work is telling you, and you cannot know what you've made until you've made it.

Speaker 2: 12:45

I know so, you know, and at one point my then agent said you know, you've got to figure out how to, how to do this thing. You know, it's just, it's so inefficient I'm like it's not pipe fitting. You know, it's just, it's just not. And so to me there's in this book, there's a house where Phoebe goes to stay and it's a it's a very, it's an enormous house with many, many children, and I myself experienced a house like that when I was a teenager and it was interesting because Reese and I just was kind of obsessed by that house and really my focus had to be on that house. I realized this everything that happens, I think, when I first wrote it, everything that happened in the house, took place in like three months, over three months. No, let's make it a week, you know, and just so put spanks on it.

Speaker 2: 13:37

Yeah, put spanks on it. So. But recently I went to the funeral of a friend's mother in Oak Park, illinois, where I grew up, and you know the mommy was 97 or something like that, and so all the high school friends were gathered and we were sitting in a bar, for, you know, hours the night before the funeral and everybody kept talking about that house and I realized I am not alone in having been obsessed by this house and all of the crazy things that went on there. So that sort of made me happy, just like. Oh, you know, I mean there's all kinds of reasons to write a novel, but sometimes it's celebrating a time and a place, yeah, and I'm often surprised by what about a book, whether nonfiction or fiction, resonates with an audience.

Speaker 1: 14:29

One of the first things to resonate with me about the Phoebe variations is my youngest daughter was adopted and she's now 17.

Speaker 2: 14:38

So I thought well, you're not old enough, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 14:43

I love you, I am against nature you just need to get up close, like I need to take these. Uh, it's a. I've got a sharp a situation going on around my eyes, but you're so kind, thank you, yeah, and so I thought this is so interesting because it's something that, as an adoptive mother, I I have wrestled. Hers was an international adoption, it wasn't domestic, but I've wrestled with that in the sense of you know, wondering what's? I hear some of my thoughts in Greta's thoughts, youaring or inserting herself in a way that isn't appropriate. I don't know, I'm making all that up. That was one of the first things that I thought, this because I saw it as a way to navigate my or not navigate, but kind of experience, my own thoughts and my own feel. So I'm really intrigued.

Speaker 2: 15:47

Well, I have a friend who also has adopted children, and well I don't. When Phoebe does meet her, her birth mother, she has what my friend thought was an unusual reaction.

Speaker 1: 16:30

Okay, I'm excited, and I don't not to go off on a tangent, but I don't. It's almost like I'd want to have a conversation with Greta and say what was your expectation? Right, and that this is where I think that fiction can be so as healing and as growth helpful with someone's growth as a self-help book. Oh yeah, because it just makes you think a little bit like how would I handle that? Or, oh, I'm having a reaction to that. Why am I having a reaction to that? Did it ever occur to you? Or did it ever make you think or wonder, when your then agent said I cannot read this again, was there a part of you that just thought you don't, okay, you don't get it Like I? Did you wrestle with that at all? Or did you trust that person so much that I would think that would be a hard I'm thinking of myself. That would be a hard call to make, maybe.

Speaker 2: 17:28

It was complicated because I didn't trust her and she had been my agent forever and really helped me through some very difficult things, both contractually and just, you know, editorially. But I also knew there is a book here. I know there's a book here and why can't I get at it? I don't know why I cannot get at it. But I also know that it took a really long time for the character of Luna, the friend of Phoebe, to come into focus, and I think part of the problem in those early versions were that she was not in focus.

Speaker 2: 18:08

And you know, I think now I mean this might sound like a stretch, but I think I also was interested in the way power dynamics work between people and also a leader and his countrymen, and how you, you know, when you have, when you have a dynamic where one person is so powerful, how do you forge yourself? How do you, you know, can sort of escape the person, or you can pretend that your subservience is absolutely fine and it's all good for you. You can resist in whatever way. So, even though this is a story about two girls I really was thinking about, you know, how do you resist? And I would not say that Phoebe in the end, resists appropriately. I think there's room for discussion about you know how you deal with a friendship where it's very unbalanced.

Speaker 1: 19:15

It's interesting for me to hear you say that Luna didn't really come into focus in the beginning, because I feel so. I can see this whole thing on a screen. I can see Luna, and it's not just because you describe her, it's because she is so in focus from the jump. So what's, what was your process or what is your process for getting to know a character better who doesn't feel in focus initially?

Speaker 2: 19:46

yeah, I mean I again, I think it's just it takes time to to understand the character and and try to achieve as much psychological depth as you can. But I think I I often think about Flannery O'Connor's line that the purpose of fiction is to probe the mystery of personality. And I really love that, the mystery of personality, and I really love that, the mystery of personality, and so that in a way, even though it doesn't answer any questions, it's kind of my guiding light. That's what I'm here to explore. And I think it just took time and just took a lot of time. And you know how long did it take? Well, I started working on it, I started thinking about it in 2013. And I worked on it on and off again until you know well, tomorrow I'll get the third pass and we'll read it for the last time and it'll be copies. Copy, I mean, it'll be typeset. You know it'll be what it is.

Speaker 2: 20:55

It'll be what it is If I don't get the comments in the right place, the whole thing will be ruined. You know, at this, at this stage in the process, it really does feel like every little dash is is so critical that someone reading it would say there should, there should not be a comma there, and I just refuse to continue reading this book.

Speaker 1: 21:14

It's very funny that you would say that, because I am that person, admittedly. So I'm an editor, my mom's an editor, and so when we get arcs like I was so excited because the arc that I got of the Phoebe variation this was before you even had a cover- oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 21:32

And also it's so uncorrected. Well, not even copy edited, it's not I know.

Speaker 1: 21:38

I absolutely know that, and whenever I get I mean most of the books that I get for this show are arcs, and so I know that I mean, as an author, like I know what my uncorrected proofs look like. And it's just you want to call people and go, page 86. I swear, I swear there's supposed to be a semicolon between these two words. So I read it knowing that, and yet I can't turn off that part of my brain that makes me want to, you know, message the author and go. I know I think there's a period missing, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:09

I know, I'm so embarrassed that you're reading that version. It just that's what you have to do. I know, I know, and it's, it's, it's. I also think that most people just read, you know, and like in the, in the next iteration of the arc there's which was no, it's not a copy edited yet, but still there's a paragraph missing and it's like you're here and then all of a sudden you're here and that makes me crazy. It's not that I keep saying to people it's not the real book, but I don't care, just give me one like well, a, I don't have them and b no right it's.

Speaker 1: 22:48

It's in a couple different ways. I love it, and the one I just said, but the other is that I one thing I've long thought would be great is can we just see the first draft? Just could authors who write these incredible books, just could you just put out the first draft so that we could all see that everyone starts in a really not good place? We all forget when we read the final, final, final final, that it's gone through 732.6 rounds of developmental line copy, proof all of it, and I think that would be so reassuring.

Speaker 2: 23:30

Yes, yeah, I mean, you do have to be willing to write badly if you're going to set words to paper. But I have to say that with the Phoebe variations, you know and as you said, I've been at this for a while the best editor I've ever had and she just absorbed the entire book. It's like in her head.

Speaker 1: 23:50

Can you say who it is, corey?

Speaker 2: 23:52

Hunter, okay, yeah, and she came up through Double Day and anyway, she, she has just been, she's been amazing really. So I'm very grateful to her and she, you know, I sort of feel like I handed in a pretty clean copy, but she, she would say you know, there's a sentence on page 82, which I just think if you, if you took out half of it you know, I was like this, we weren't even looking at the manuscript she said, I just think it would maybe be sharper, I don't know, I just I was completely impressed and I don't know, I don't know what your experience is. But you know, I've taught writing classes and it's always really interesting. And maybe Corey has many novels in her I don't, I don't know, we haven't ever talked about that if she has that wish, but it's always interesting to me, almost more than seeing the natural writers in a class like and some people have both, but when you see it and I actually don't have it, and so when I have students who are that, you just say more, keep talking.

Speaker 1: 25:00

So anyway, Well, someone said something to me recently and I hadn't thought about it this way. She said I wonder if you're because I've done. I've written nonfiction, this is just my first novel that I'm working on, and I've sort of been working on it for about 24 years. But anyway, she said, I wonder if you struggle with it because, as an editor as well, you don't know which hat you have on. And I think that is true. Yes, I can see that.

Speaker 1: 25:26

No, it's like you forget that it's like I'm trying to edit it and write it at the same time, yet that it's like I'm trying to edit it and write it at the same time and I it.

Speaker 2: 25:35

It's not an easy thing to do. No, no, um, I would say it's probably almost impossible, because you have to really say that well, no, no, you have to.

Speaker 1: 25:42

You have to somehow operate the editor part of you while you're writing yes yes and then find someone who I love the editing partnership process, I do too. Do you? Yeah, I really do. Do you feel like you're, especially with this one? Corey saw things that, developmentally, that you didn't.

Speaker 2: 26:06

Absolutely yes. And also I think it's interesting when people tell you what your book is about, because it's not always what I would have said or what I would have seen in it. What did Kori say? She said it was a feminist. What's the word? Well, I'll get back to you on that. I don't even know what that word means. I'll have to go look it up, anyway. So it's sort of funny. I don't even know what that word means I'll have to go look it up. Anyway, it's sort of funny.

Speaker 1: 26:35

It's interesting. I'm like what is this? I had to go. I got to find it because I had to go keep talking. But I had to go look it up in the dictionary and I thought, ok, this is a beautiful, a beautiful moment. I don't even know if I'll be able to.

Speaker 2: 26:55

I should have highlighted it. But anyway, are you an everyday writer? Am I an everyday writer? Well, ideally yes, but you know life doesn't frude, which is sometimes good. But yes, I mean, you know, when I had little children, I didn't really have a daycare situation and my kids went to the neighbor every other afternoon for two hours and so every other day felt like a weekend. I think now I should have just had an hour every day because, just finding my thread but here's the thing about those days, this was before email, so you just sat down and got to work. It wasn't like, oh, let me just check, you know, for now five hours. So we were free in a certain way. So that was good. Yeah, I think, when you're in the middle of the project, if you really can do even just a bit every day so you don't lose your thread.

Speaker 1: 27:49

Yeah, can you do it in seven-minute bursts if you have to?

Speaker 2: 27:53

That's not ideal.

Speaker 1: 27:55

I mean ideas in seven minute bursts like are you someone who could be driving down the road and all of a sudden you think Sure, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 28:02

It never comes at a convenient time, but In fact, you know, with Corey the other day we were going through the second pass and there was just a line that she thought needed two commas and it was like it was. I of course said yes, and I said I don't, oh, I don't want to clutter up with commas. And she said, okay, that's fine. And then I was driving to the grocery store afterwards I thought of course there has to be commas. I of course said, and so I pulled over.

Speaker 1: 28:30

I called her up and I said we have to have those commas, corey and I would get along, famously because I feel like there's two ways to say that. I, of course, would say yes. And I of course would say yes If there's commas, it changes the way. But there are millions of people, jane, who would say Elizabeth, it reads the same both ways.

Speaker 2: 28:53

It actually really does not and I'm like no, it doesn't. Oh, it doesn't, it doesn't. And you know this is, you know I'm an elderly person, but I this whole new craze of not using quotation marks for dialogue, which sometimes I really in a novel, sometimes I really understand and it works. But I read a novel recently and there were no quotation marks and you honestly could not tell who was talking when and these even in italics.

Speaker 2: 29:20

No, no, no, and and I think that these, you know, punctuation was created for a reason and happened to really believe in the virtue of clarity.

Speaker 1: 29:33

So, anyway, I yeah, well, what's challenging now is people are and myself included are putting text conversations in their books. Yeah, so how do we delineate the text conversation from a? So I put texts in italics and I double indent. I mean, it's like you know, we're seeing all kinds of things, that all kinds of liberties are being taken.

Speaker 2: 30:00

Yeah, but that seems a little different than because that's its own form.

Speaker 1: 30:08

Agreed, agreed, agreed. I don't think at my stage of life I can read a book without quotation marks. I really do need that marker of someone's talking now, if I have to suss that out, as the kids say for myself we're done.

Speaker 2: 30:26

Anyway, it's just everything is changing all the time and always has done. Everything is changing all the time and always has done.

Speaker 1: 30:31

No kidding, what do you enjoy doing for book promotion? I mean, having been doing this since the days when we didn't have Instagram and we didn't have Facebook, which is when I started too, and I enjoy social media for what it's good for, and it's also incredibly distracting and overwhelming, and all the shoulds come into play whenever we're talking about social media. So how do you go about promotion in a way that feels good to you?

Speaker 2: 30:57

Well, I used to love the old days. You'd pull into a town I mean, really, this is going to date me so much Some place like Omaha, and you'd have an appointment with the fiction guy at the whatever the Omaha Herald, and you'd meet him in a smoky bar and he'd be having his afternoon whiskey, sour, whatever and this and he's smoking cigarettes and you just talk about books endlessly and that was that, you know. And then and then you go to your event and you'd read, you'd read from your novel for a half an hour and actual people showed up.

Speaker 2: 31:31

yeah, yeah, that was fun, that was fun and so, anyway, those were the old days. I really enjoyed that and, and you know, I had small children then, so it was really kind of such a lark to get out, get out, but what I really what is and I sort of said this before about editors but it's really fascinating to meet readers and to sometimes people say the most articulate, amazing, really mind blowing things about the book that I hadn't thought of and I really appreciate that. That is that's, that's a remarkable experience. So, yeah, so and are you doing?

Speaker 2: 33:04

go ahead. No, people say, oh must be so hard to be on the road. I'm like, well, you know to be on the road and to meet people most of whom say you know I love your book. I like, how hard is that? Not really all that hard. To me, the the hardest thing to react to is when people say I read your book, thank you, I'm sorry, you know what, what, what, what. Why would you say that if you didn't? I?

Speaker 1: 33:41

I truly don't understand that. That's not a full sentence. If we're talking about editorial, editory, editing, editoring, oh my god, editing. It's not there's, it's a predicate are you? Doing a lot of in person events with the Phoebe variations. Yes, in the fall when it comes out. I don't suppose you're coming to Phoenix.

Speaker 2: 34:03

I'm going to Tucson in March. I'm going to the book festival. Oh, the book festival, of course, no, I'm not going. I've never been to Phoenix, to tell you the truth, really. Well, don't come now.

Speaker 1: 34:20

I went out to water the plants this morning and they were all screaming You're not on social media.

Speaker 2: 34:25

Well, I do have an Instagram account. I do have a Facebook page, Elizabeth. I do. I rarely look at it, but I do. I'm signed up.

Speaker 1: 34:37

Okay, I tried to find you. Oh, I'm on, not on, facebook. I tried to find you on Instagram because that's where I spend. Facebook just makes me sad. I spend a lot of my time on the majority of my time on Instagram.

Speaker 2: 34:48

I think I'm Jane Hamilton author or Jane Hamilton writer. Okay Well.

Speaker 1: 34:53

I'll do more research, but I hear you're not posting three times a day. No, I am not. And you're not dancing on TikTok reels.

Speaker 2: 35:01

And.

Speaker 1: 35:01

I think that's so refreshing because I've always said if you catch me dancing on TikTok, it is a cry for help.

Speaker 2: 35:07

Like someone.

Speaker 1: 35:09

That's my SOS. You say you need a code word with your friends. Like my friends know, that's my code word okay okay, yeah, have you just never really had the um? Have you had people tell you you should be there?

Speaker 2: 35:28

I, yes, yes, yes, yes, I have, yes, I definitely have'm. You know, I look at it to see pictures that my daughter posts and we're involved with a coffee shop in our town, and so I look to see what what the wonderful owner of the business has been doing. And you know, I look at it, but but I'm not, I don't, I'm not that interesting, I don't have that much to share and it feels very intrusive to me. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 36:01

I hear you. I don't know why anyone cares what anyone has for lunch. I don't know that anyone cares what anyone has for lunch, or it's such a strange. I certainly remember when we didn't I mean when I had my first child I had to take a picture of her, print it at the drug store, mail it to my parents. Now I could just FaceTime them. I mean, I'm not giving birth ever again, but now I could just FaceTime them and they could watch the whole thing if they wanted. It's crazy how much we've evolved in just 25 years. It is. But sometimes I miss well a lot of times actually, I miss that slower kind of.

Speaker 2: 36:43

I miss slow time so much, and I am as addicted to my phone as the next person.

Speaker 1: 36:49

Are you, oh yes, are you addicted to, if not, social media? Now I'm.

Speaker 2: 36:54

Are you? Oh yes, are you addicted to, if not, social media? Now I'm. I get news alerts from the news source of my that I prefer, and I do the Peloton app. I'm an obsessive workout work outaholic so, and I am studying French, so I do Duolingo and I mean, elizabeth, let me tell you there's a lot you can do on your. Listen, I know I'm also do Duolingo and I mean, elizabeth, let me tell you there's a lot you can do on your phone.

Speaker 1: 37:15

Listen, I know I'm also on Duolingo. My mom speaks fluent French, so I've been trying for years. She has a master's in French literature and yeah, and so I. You know, I've asked her many times just talk to me in French, and she does. And I'm like forget it, it never. So I was doing Duolingo for French also. I guess I quit that. I have some brain activity like Wordle and the crossword puzzle. Of course, definitely our paths diverged at the workoutaholic. I talked to Audrey Ingram a couple weeks ago, whose novel and Then we Ran is just about to come out and I thought it was about running. So I was like I'm not going to like this, but in fact it's about running for political position and I'm very into it. It's very good because it's not about running. Our paths diverge there, but that's okay.

Speaker 2: 38:11

What about yoga with Adrienne? Adrienne's yoga, I don't know, adri, that's okay. What about? What?

Speaker 1: 38:14

about yoga with Adrian. Adrian's yoga. I don't know Adrian's yoga. I have about 17 yoga apps. I just never opened them. See, I'm the person who thinks that if I have all the supplements on my counter, it's working. So I buy all the things the lotions and the supplements and the yoga apps I just don't do them.

Speaker 2: 38:33

Well, I think that's. Yeah, adrienne, she kind of she started. She started putting up her yoga little classes and you know five from five minutes to an hour and for free on YouTube, because she wanted people to have access to yoga. And then it really took off and, especially during the pandemic, everybody signed up. So anyway, she, I love her aesthetic. There's no music, the background is very spare. She has a. She has a beautiful little or fairly large blue healer dog named Benji, who's often in the in the frame and she's, she has a you and she's developed the yoga vocabulary so you can do any of the videos and you know where you are and what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 39:23

I'm going to check that out I highly recommend it. Okay, because I've got to start moving. I don't know, things are.

Speaker 2: 39:30

I would start with the. She's got seven videos called rise and it's just more first thing in the morning and it's really good all right, getting me to do anything before 10, 30 is well you can do it on jadrian. It's going to be a challenge you can do it at um 10 45, okay, all right, I'll keep you posted.

Speaker 1: 39:52

Okay, all right, okay. The last thing I ask everybody is what are you reading now?

Speaker 2: 39:57

I'm. I just finished Playworld by Adam Ross, I believe is, and Playworld which I loved with all my heart. But you know, I'm afraid to recommend things because my tastes are not.

Speaker 1: 40:11

I just I'm not even asking you to recommend it. I'm just saying what are you reading?

Speaker 2: 40:15

Yeah, I love that book. I love that book with all my heart and I'm reading a book called Brian that Sigrid Nunez recommended a while ago in the New Yorker, and it's a very, very eccentric book and I know what I just read. I just listened to Sunrise on the Reaping, the prequel to the Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins, and it's really. It so speaks to this moment because it's about reaping. Well, yeah, it's about you know, know what happens when you're in an authoritarian world, anyway it's. I actually listened to it and the reader who's some hot actor who was in yellowstone, I think read it so beautifully and he made me fall in love with the hero. I mean, I just loved the hero and I think. I think it was actually a very different experience than reading. It would have been.

Speaker 1: 41:18

I hear that often about audio versus and I sort of vacillate between them myself, but I'm more of a reader than an audio book, unless I'm driving or something. I am so late to the Hunger Games thing. I just watched the Hunger Games last week for the very first time.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Nobody can.

Speaker 1: 41:37

Yeah, nobody can believe it. So I, why did you? Because a friend of mine said this is a crime To watch this. So I've never seen Star Wars. Oh God, I won't tell my best friend, aaron is at Comic-Con right now Meeting with Anakin. Anakin, I won't tell my best friend, erin is at Comic-Con right now a meeting with Anakin. I don't know, I'm going to say it wrong. She's looking for Ewoks. Okay, I've never read Star Wars either. Have you seen the movie? Oh, no, I've never seen the movie. Yeah, I've never seen the movie. Oh, that's an interesting fact about you. You know, you have those little moments. Share an interesting fact. That's one I guess maybe I'll share.

Speaker 1: 42:15

Hunger Games I don't know, it's all very of the times in some way, like we may be going there, we may be in it, I don't know. But good grief. Well, thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to meet you and to chat with you.

Speaker 2: 42:28

It's a pleasure to meet you and good luck on your novel to meet you and, uh, good luck on your novel. Just keep at it in 34 years, when you're, when you're when you're 41.

Speaker 1: 42:40

Okay, I'll cast that a long time ago, jane, long time ago.