Ep 133: Living Proof with Tiffany Graham Charkosky

In this episode, I sit down with Tiffany Graham Charkosky to talk about her forthcoming memoir, Living Proof (October 21, Little A), a book written and shaped over years of writing and rewriting.

At just 11 years old, Tiffany lost her mother. For decades, she believed it was an unexplainable tragedy, until a DNA test unearthed information that changed everything. That discovery didn’t just reshape her understanding of her mother’s death; it also made her question what she might unknowingly pass on to her own children.

INSIDE THE EPISODE

• The emotional (and editorial) decision-making around what belongs in a book
• How long it took for her story to find its true shape (and why)
• The surprising speed of her publishing deal once it all came together
• How do we process loss as kids versus adults? And what happens when new information forces us to reinterpret our past?

Tiffany’s story is as deeply personal as it is universally relatable. 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Tiffany and Her Memoir
• 6:11 The Unconventional Path to Publication
• 10:53 Writing a Memoir Over Ten Years
• 18:30 The Story Behind Living Proof
• 26:05 Finding the Narrative Arc
• 32:55 The Challenge of Ending a Memoir
• 36:50 Current Reads and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:36

I am so excited to be joined today by Tiffany Graham-Czarkowski, whose novel although this is really a memoir, right Memoir Living Proof, is it? It's not out yet. No, october 31st, 21st, 21st Okay, I had one number right October 21st which just feels it's July for point of reference. Where in the world are you, tiffany?

Speaker 2: 1:00

I'm in just outside Cleveland Ohio.

Speaker 1: 1:03

Okay, all right, so you're dealing with some humidity. I'm in Phoenix where it feels like it will never be October. I was quite delighted to get this memoir in the mail. Don't spoil anything for me please, cause I'm just I've just broached it. I think I'm at like chapter four. What I love about it so far is and this is me, this is a subjective thing, so I don't want anyone listening who's working on memoir to think this is the way it has to be your chapter so far quick, and what I find happening for me with that is I think I'll just read another chapter and then I get through it so quickly that I'm like I'm going to read another chapter.

Speaker 2: 1:46

I'll read one more, because it's just a couple pages.

Speaker 1: 1:47

Exactly, and before I know it, it's 2.30 in the morning and I'm at the end of the book. So, memoir is? You use the word fascinating so much I'm trying to find a substitute word. I'm not doing a good job, so we'll just use fascinating for today. It's a fascinating genre for me to talk to people about because, number one, it's notoriously challenging to sell. Yes, and you sold this to little. Is it little a? I know it's an. Amazon, yep, and so I'm. I'd love to ask you about your process there.

Speaker 2: 2:27

First, yeah, so I think that I had a pretty untraditional acquisition process, so I'll just start out with that out the gate. Um, I got my literary agent, lori Dennison, with Creative Media Agency. I got her last spring, so spring of 2024. And we were going through, we did two rounds of edits so that we were kind of deep in the throes of my second edit last summer with the intention of going on submission last fall and Lori called me and said don't be mad, I soft pitched this, your project, to an editor who lost a memoir for 2025.

Speaker 2: 3:09

So can you work really quickly to pull your book proposal together, which I'd submitted a proposal, you know, when I was querying and she's like just, you know, work on the first 50 pages, just focus on getting the first 50 pages as good as you can get them. And so I sent those off to Selena at Little A and they interviewed a couple weeks later and then a couple months later I had a book offer. So it was amazing and it was crazy because you do see, all the time memoir is so hard to sell and so I had been sort of gearing up for this like really long process and you know how would we do that, and it was a long process to get to the part of finding an agent and writing the book, of course, but actually moving into the publication stage has been a little bit of a whirlwind, in the best way.

Speaker 1: 4:01

And I enjoy that because I talk to authors who say I was working on the book for 27 years and then it took me 37 years to find an agent and then another 47 years, and obviously I'm being dramatic for effect. I love the opposite side of that as well and I'm trying to think right now. Julie Chavez everyone but myself. When I spoke with her about this same thing really fast like she didn't even necessarily Corey she actually got her deal with Zibi Publishing before she had an agent. So she went out and got an agent and I enjoy having all things are possible, right. So what did you ever consider? Self-publishing or hybrid publishing, or for you was it kind of always a? I want to go traditional, and here's why.

Speaker 2: 4:49

I think I wanted to see how far I could take it and sort of where it might land. So it wasn't like I need to have this, you know, traditionally published or anything like that. But I think I just kept working and trying and you know, querying is exhausting. I think I queried about 60 agents over the course of two years, so it wasn't like a constant barrage or something, but sort of noticed like, oh, nobody's biting at this, is it the query or is it the pages, like so just continually trying to make both better and so yeah, so I wasn't dead set on you know either road. I think I just wanted to see how how far can I take this story.

Speaker 1: 5:36

And then make a decision. Exactly yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:40

And I don't have like a ton of money to, you know, self-publish something. So I was thinking about that, you know side of things, that aspect as well.

Speaker 1: 5:47

Yeah, how long did it take you to get the draft? Another reason memoir is so interesting and it's tricky is that it can take a while to get that first draft to the point where you feel comfortable sharing it with anyone, let alone quarrying it, because it's so personal.

Speaker 2: 6:05

Yeah, well, it took me. I started working on this about 10-ish years ago and it doesn't mean I was working on it all day, every day. It was like I did a first draft in about a year. That was like so bad that I didn't know what to do with, like I was just like I don't even know what to make of this material. And then it was probably, you know, around the beginning of the pandemic, when I had nowhere else to go and nowhere else to be and I thought, if I can't like really carve out a time to do this now, then when else will I do it? So I spent maybe two years, about two years, between that and, like, working on it, then started sending it out and I did have one lovely agent respond and say the story is.

Speaker 2: 6:50

I think it's a lovely story, I don't see how I can position it and I don't see a narrative arc here. And I was like what is a narrative arc? I don't know what that means. I don't have an MFA. So then I had to go back and, like you know, you read all these craft books and take writing classes and sort of like muscled it into a structure that gave it, like you know the story arc and so that was probably the most helpful feedback that I got through. The whole process was like find the story and then when I was going through revisions with my agent, she was like ruthless in saying what is this about? What is this about? And it's amazing. I mean you've written so many books like how much you have to cut away and then how much more you add back in in order to make the book about what it is about. So there's a lot of stuff you write through that feels like it's critical and then you realize it's actually not part of the story.

Speaker 2: 7:44

It was just part of getting to the story.

Speaker 1: 7:47

We talk about that all the time. I talk about that in my writing group and with on this podcast, about how much we're writing our way through and into and out of the story and into our understanding of the story. And one of the things that I ask people often when I'm editing memoir is why does this matter? And I am not challenging them as though I'm saying like this doesn't matter. I'm legitimately asking why does this matter? Yeah, because sometimes and I love it when an author can come back and say this matters because, and then I go, yeah, yeah, because sometimes and I love it when an author can come back and say this matters because, and then I go, yeah, okay, I get that, but that's not coming through in the words Yep, and other times an author will say maybe it doesn't like, maybe I just needed to vent that.

Speaker 2: 8:36

Yeah, it's really interesting and going through the editorial process which is something I wish for every writer I know like find an editor who can help you answer those questions of saying why does this matter? Or say this exists in your brain, but this isn't showing up here and I need you to do more work for that. Like it's just an amazing gift to work with an editor who can help you do that.

Speaker 1: 8:59

That's another great point. We have stuff in our brain that is not on the page. Everyone, it doesn't matter. You could have written 80 books, you could be Melissa de la Cruz with your 80th book coming out in September, and it's in your brain. So you think it's on the page. It's not on the page.

Speaker 2: 9:17

No, or maybe it's in like an old draft and you cut it and you're like did I leave this? Did I cut it? Where am I in this story?

Speaker 1: 9:26

Yes, I was working on a book yesterday and I had a note in one chapter that said something I'm paraphrasing. But remember, back in chapter four we talked about X and I messaged the author and I said where the hell is this? I said it's back in chapter four. It's not in chapter four. Did it get cut Like? Where is it? So that happens, we get crazy with version control and where did it go? And is it in the parking lot or is it in the trash? Or when you said that your first draft was I don't remember your exact words, but not good. It was some version of not good. What was it that kept pulling you back to keep, as opposed to saying screw this?

Speaker 2: 10:08

Well, I think that if you have a story inside of you that just doesn't leave you, I feel like that your creativity talks to you and it's like what are these things that I need to express? Or I haven't seen expressed in other ways, and I know that you're early in my book so I won't spoil anything for you. But I did go through genetic testing and I was sort of desperate to find books that talked about this process and where I was. And I'm like the kind of person who, like I want to read a book about everything. If I start cooking a new food, I want to go find books on it. Yeah, I want to read. I want to read books about whatever, wherever I am in my life, and I was like I can't find the book that I need to read right now.

Speaker 2: 10:54

And I had a wonderful like genetic counselor and I have a wonderful medical team, but I was like I don't have anyone to talk about this with and I don't have any.

Speaker 2: 11:05

There were, you know, like chat rooms on Facebook and things like that, but like that feeling that I think you get from reading a memoir is like I'm not alone or like our experiences aren't exactly the same, but like I have felt that way before and I'm not crazy for feeling that way, I'm not a bad person because this is how I'm feeling in this moment and so for me it was just like if I can make something positive out of this experience and like help people feel seen in this, like in this moment.

Speaker 2: 11:39

And I think the other thing is like genetics are always advancing, like and I have no training in the world of genetics, I'm not a geneticist, I'm not a medical professional but it's this feeling that there's all this information out there, like you can take a swab of your you know saliva, send it off to the universe, find out you have family members you didn't know I did, you did, yeah, find out.

Speaker 2: 12:02

You like carry a genetic condition that you should be getting surveyed, like, screened for, but there's nothing in that that says like here's the emotional pathways that you can follow to sort of, like you know, navigate this experience. So for me, it was this feeling that like I was going through something that I'm certain other people are going through or have gone through, but I wasn't finding that story that I needed to relate to. And so I wake up every morning, I have a full-time job. I have two kids and it was like it motivated me to wake up out of bed and I think if you have a thing that you're working on that's like come on, tiffany, come hang out with me, we've got work to do. It kind of felt like that.

Speaker 1: 13:37

That's delightful that you just said that, because I, as I've made no secret of, and working on my first novel, I feel like Tiffany, I'm going to be saying that at episode 672, like I'm still working on it, I'm still working on my first novel too, are you really Okay?

Speaker 2: 13:53

So we're going to enjoy this together.

Speaker 1: 13:54

Yesterday morning I had a conversation and I want to come back to a bunch of stuff you just said but I had a conversation with someone recently and I think it was Audrey Ingram. I'm not 100 percent sure, it easily could be her, even if it's not, because she's just brilliant. But she said something about sort of becoming one with your characters and even if you're writing memoir, right, you're becoming sort of one with yourself and with your reader and why you're doing it. And I thought yesterday morning, as I was surveying my closet and all the gray t-shirts because that's all I have are gray t-shirts I thought, you know, maybe I'm letting Hallie, my main character, down because I'm not with her every day, and so maybe that's what will be kind of the motivation. Maybe I need to sort of feel this pull of my main character saying Liz, let's just go have coffee.

Speaker 2: 14:54

I have a main character in my novel and I love the feeling of being like I'm going to go hang out with my novel characters for a little while and it's something like only somebody who writes that can know that feeling. But of like, or you know, I kind of had to put the novel away as I was deep in the revisions of this book and I find myself saying to my main character's name is Gwen, I'm like I'll be back, I'll be back, Don't go anywhere. Because I don't know if you've read the Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. She talks about ideas, having these, looking for places that they can land, and she's like I wrote this book and then Ann Patchett wrote this book and because I wasn't giving it attention. And so I find myself like talking to my characters, where I'm like I'm coming back for you.

Speaker 1: 15:40

Well, that's the thing is, I'm I'm such a like recovering people pleaser. I say recovering, I think, just to make myself feel better, to people please myself. But I'm such a recovering people pleaser that I think of it like this is a real person and she feels left, left alone, and so I can't do that.

Speaker 2: 15:59

I can't leave this fake real person alone, and so all right.

Speaker 1: 16:02

So coming back to some stuff that you just said about memoir writing and helping people feel that they're not alone and the emotions that are involved in genetic discoveries and such, you know I people are drawn to books for a variety of reasons. I am not drawn to your book because I have a similar scenario. I wasn't drawn to Breathtaking by Jesse Fine because I have a child with. She had a child who passed a couple of years ago. There's something that you're so. There's the group of people who will read it because they identify in some way very directly. Then there are people who will read it because they just want to know how you navigated something like that and they will still glean something from that.

Speaker 1: 16:50

And one of my very best friends' moms passed of ALS and my friend was young, I think around 17, when that happened, and so through her I understand the discomfort, the fear, insert whatever word anybody would choose of oh my gosh, do I carry this? Am I passing this along? That sort of a thing. And so just my relationship with her even intrigues me to want to understand more your journey, because I have a feeling that people listening or watching are thinking well, what the hell is this book about? Can you give kind of a?

Speaker 2: 17:27

Yeah. So my mom died when I was 11. For most of my adult life I thought that it was just bad luck she was dead, it was over. Now I'm living my life.

Speaker 2: 17:41

We all work really hard when somebody we love dies, I mean whether it's a mother, a father, a grandparent, child. You do a lot of work to figure out how to live in the world without somebody who you love, and so I think for me, I had reached this point where I felt like I have this great life, I have this husband, I have this son who I love, I have this job. And then it was like oh, by the way, like your mom died, it was bad luck, but like it was more like a coin toss and, by the way, like you might have it too. And so I think the thing that I really had to work through was that. And so there's a couple of pieces to this. One is that like you lose your child, your mother. As a child, it's one type of loss I felt like suddenly I was losing her. As an adult, I was losing, you know, a different version of my mother in a different time in my life, and I had to look at like, what does that mean for me as a mother? Like, how am I, what is the legacy I'm leaving for my children? How do I, how do I do this? And so I hope there's a couple of layers to that, which is, like, you know, not everybody is going to get genetic testing and I think that's like my path into this. But like when I read, for example, cheryl Strayed's story the Love of my Life, like I have never been like gutted like I was when I read that story. I read, for example, cheryl Strayed's story the Love of my Life, like I have never been like gutted like I was when I read that story. I read it standing up in a Barnes and Noble the year the best American essays came out. I bought it.

Speaker 2: 19:12

I was like other people feel this, like I cannot keep living, I'm blowing my life up, like it was this feeling of like this is kind of a big deal and like I think that, like when you're a kid, you're sort of just like I'm just gonna like keep going, I'm just gonna keep living. And that can mean a lot of different things. It can mean you know you go to get good grades, which was like the route. Now's the time, you know, almost 20 years later now, you're really going to like deal with this, and so I feel like that is a universal feeling.

Speaker 2: 19:51

That isn't just about like, oh, and I had my blood drawn and whatever. It's more like my world is different, oh, and the whole world I thought I'd lived is also different. So I think that like that sort of for me, where this story is not just about, like you know, genetic testing which of course it is but it's sort of like you know, when you know more about yourself, how do you build the life that you want to have, how do you love the people in your life and carve out that space for yourself.

Speaker 1: 20:24

Well, and does it? Did it create for you and I'm curious if it creates for other a different lens through which you start to look at everything that has transpired, or many things that have transpired, between the time that, when that thing happened, and today.

Speaker 2: 20:40

Oh, I mean 100%, 100%. And like I, you know, my mom was 11. I have two sons. They're now 16 and one will be 13 next week. My dad was younger than I was when this happened, like my dad was. My mom was 30 when she passed away. My dad was 33. So I'm 43 now.

Speaker 2: 21:00

Like I'm looking at these things, it's like I can look back in time and be like this is what teenage Tiffany was feeling like at this moment. But, by the way, like here's the age that my dad was and it's all of a sudden I can start like forgiving these things. That like when you're young you don't understand, but you can go back with like wisdom and time and be like, okay, we're all actually just like humans trying to do our best with what we know at that moment and live. You know our lives, and so I think like a hundred percent it has done that for me. Like, and I think part of the amazing thing of writing a memoir is like you are forced to find the narrative in your life. You don't get to just like live in the confusing messiness. Like, all of a sudden it's like oh yeah, tiffany, why are you like that? And you can kind of see it laid out on the page right in front of you.

Speaker 1: 21:54

So what did you find to be the narrative arc, that arc that that delightful agent called your attention to?

Speaker 2: 22:03

Yeah, so my book's broken down into three parts and sort of the first part is it goes forward and backwards in time. The scenes alternate between me being a child and me being an adult going through the genetic testing process and then so that's sort of end of phase. The end of part one is, like you know, you've gone through the testing and then phase two is sort of you know, the middle part of the book. That messy middle part is, like you know, 13 years have passed since I've done that. Like I've had a couple surgeries. Like I have another child.

Speaker 2: 22:37

I had to make some big decisions like health wise and you know navigate, you know what are my family relationships? Like Like not everybody in my family has this mutation, it's 50 50. Like I don't have really, you know, there's a lot of you know kind of the middle part. And then getting to the part where it's like and I kept saying this to my agent, you know and then my editor, I was like I'm real scared about how we write this ending, because I don't feel like there's no guarantees in anybody's life.

Speaker 2: 23:06

So I don't feel like I can say like, and now I have beat this thing because you will never do that and so and I'm like it's jinxy to even think about so you know, I think about that. But then I think about like well, what have I learned? And like, what is my relationship with my children look like in my relationship with my husband and my relationship to myself? Like those are big things. And I think you know, ultimately, when you go through anything like that, you end up saying like I have one life, like what am I doing in this life and how am I spending my days in the way that, you know, bring me the most fulfillment and, you know, help me be the very best version of whatever I am.

Speaker 1: 23:49

So and I think that's such a what I hear, because I haven't really well, I haven't written straight memoir. It's memoir-ish, like there's story and my but my stuff is really more strictly nonfiction to this point. I think when people are writing memoir there's often this sense of can I end Like I'm still learning, I'm still figuring out who I am? And then there's this fear of but what if I publish it? And then I realize three months later that this epiphany I had on page 74, I disagree with Yep, and you know my guidance is typically you are where you are where you are. It's always going to be evolving, yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:31

And so you finished the book with that knowledge and that sense of this is where I am now. How did you decide ultimately that?

Speaker 2: 24:42

Yeah, that was really hard. I think I ultimately had to land and this was another thing I said is I don't want anybody to think that I'm trying to tell them what they should do or I'm in no place to be like dishing out life advice to people and so like really, you know, trying to find that voice or that, you know ending that feels like it was worth the journey. I think is one of the things that's hard in memoir, especially because you know my book ended I finished writing it in 2024 and it's been a of editing and I've kept living and all of that. So I think it was like trying to find a moment that feels like emblematic of like something bigger. So it's, you know I ended up, you know, having close, you know, with scenes of, you know, my husband and my children and sort of where we are.

Speaker 2: 25:28

And I think the thing with I was joking with another writer because we are, you know, both launching books and you know when you're working on memoirs, like you want to say like congratulations on your book. Also, I'm so sorry you had to live through that to get to this. So it's this weird place where I wanted to kind of end with like this is what my life is and I'm ultimately, like, really happy with my life. I still am.

Speaker 2: 25:52

And so I think trying to end it with like this was the road that you have to take in order to sort of get here, and mine is different than yours, is different than anybody else's, and I hope, as we get older, we can sort of forgive ourselves of whatever mistakes we've made or feelings we've had or, you know, things we've done, and say, well, if that wouldn't have happened, then there's this whole other domino of things that wouldn't have happened, and so if you can kind of feel like, well, where I am, is it a place that I'm, like in this moment, content with, then, like that was sort of what I ended up working towards. So, yeah, it is. It is really hard. The ending is so scary, and the longer it takes to finish the book, the more you're like, oh gosh, do I have to add this?

Speaker 1: 26:34

Do I have to add this, exactly, exactly, and like you're driving down the road and then you call your editor and you're like I think I have to add in this other story and your editor is lying and saying, nope, it's been, it's off to print, it's gone, we're done.

Speaker 2: 26:47

You do have to say like I'm are you good with letting this thing go? And you know you have to. You know, at some point and that's the phase it's in right now is like arcs are going out there. You have it like it's out there and you know learning to live with, like hey, this thing that was like really tiny and precious to me, and only to me, is now this thing that other people are engaging with and you just like really hope that it does what you hope it does.

Speaker 1: 27:16

Well, and it makes me think actually that you're you know, we talk so often about the messy middle of writing there's also the messy middle of publishing, where it's done and it's. The arcs are traveling and all that is starting to happen and you're starting to do press and whatnot but it's not out yet. Yeah, and so it's. I don't. How does that feel? Like does that feel?

Speaker 2: 27:38

how does that feel? It feels really weird. It feels strange, I think, because you know, when you're somebody who's you know drawn to writing, I think that you're sort of not like trying to put yourself out there all the time, like you want to sort of like you've been very private and like you're writing something that's a very, you know, a very curated version of a story. And so it's this, I think, feeling of like hey guys, this whole time we've known each other, I've been like doing this thing, and that feels weird too. So I think it's the self-promotion part of it that is always challenging and I just, you know, to prepare for today.

Speaker 2: 28:19

I was listening to your interview with Emily that you just had. Who's like amazing, and so I do think, you know, trying to figure out those ways of like, how can I be like true to myself and true to the story? And you know, trying to figure out those ways of like, how can I be like true to myself and true to the story? And, and you know, I would love to write another book. So how do I like do this? Well enough that, like they, the elusive they in the world will let me keep doing this.

Speaker 1: 28:45

Well, and I'm curious, you know, when you release the novel because you will, and surely you'll do it before I do You'll have to come back if you'll be willing and talk about the difference. When people have written memoir and fiction, what's so interesting is to ask them about the promotion difference between the two, because when in writing nonfiction and memoir, it's like you're promoting yourself and you're still promoting yourself with fiction because it's your book. But sometimes I feel like it's a little bit easier to lean on, like I'm promoting my, I'm supporting my characters again, as though they're people. It's like, and I'm so good at like I can hold your book which, by the way, in love with this cover, thank you.

Speaker 1: 29:33

In love with this.

Speaker 2: 29:34

If people are watching it on the we're now on YouTube, so if you're watching this.

Speaker 1: 29:38

Oh, look you have it there too. We'll show it twice. You know, I could stand on the corner with this all day and be like buy it, buy it, buy it, buy it. But put me on a corner holding my own book and I'll be like so hey, I know.

Speaker 2: 29:53

I know and I work in the arts, so I'm like always promoting other artists, like programs that are happening, and it's easy and natural to like cheer for other people and it's flexing a completely different muscle to say, oh hey, like I did this thing over here, and also can you, you know, share your time or your money or your resources, like you know, consuming this like it's a big. It's a big thing, yes, yeah, and it is a completely different muscle.

Speaker 1: 30:25

I mean, it is a, and I think it's something that we all just have to sort of lean into and go at our own pace on whatever's comfortable. And, as I always say, truly there are no shoulds, musts, need to have to, none of that. It's just what feels. If it feels a little uncomfortable, can you acknowledge that it feels a little uncomfortable and just dip your toe in and see how it feels and then maybe dip your toes in and then or maybe say, oh hell, no Right, Like, if it's, if it's the Arctic icy, whatever, like I'm not, I'm not a cold plunger, Tiffany, yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:03

Yeah. But then I mean you get messages from people who say things like I am going through something so similar or my daughter's going through this, and you, things like I am going through something so similar or my daughter's going through this, and you're like, oh okay, like I, this is why I did it. So I think, like you know, with all art you're looking for that connection, you want it to, you know, strike a chord inside somebody else and have this like shared human experience. And so when I tell myself, like it's for those things and like try to think of it as like finding my readers, like who are they, like it's finding readers not selling books, so I think that those are some different ways of doing the same thing, but like it's the mental framing of it.

Speaker 1: 31:45

Yes, as Jen Hansen DePaula, and I love her. She's an author marketing I don't even use the word marketing. It's like she's a connection expert and she's always saying marketing is just like. Are you comfortable? And Emily said the same thing Are you comfortable having conversations?

Speaker 2: 32:01

Are you?

Speaker 1: 32:02

comfortable just making new. That's really what it is.

Speaker 2: 32:06

It's not sales.

Speaker 1: 32:07

We're not selling Volvos over here, right, thank God, right, right, so all right. Last question I always ask is what are you reading or what have you read recently that you really loved?

Speaker 2: 32:20

Well, I'm almost always reading two books, one fiction and one nonfiction. It just depends on my mood. So right now, I'm currently reading no One Gets to Fall Apart by Sarah Labrie. Have you heard of this? No, is that nonfiction or fiction? Yeah, it's a memoir. It's a story about Sarah discovers that her mother has schizophrenia. Okay, so she's Sarah's in her adult life, but it feels like similar in that she's able to look similar to the book I had you know finished, in that she's able to look similar to the book I finished, in that she's looking back on her childhood and it's like all these pieces of her childhood are making sense as to like, oh, my mother has this disease and I'm scared that something will happen in my world and I will also have it, and so it's also just really beautifully written. So I'm working on that. And then I'm reading the Phoenix Pencil Company by Alison King, which it's Reese's Book Club 2025.

Speaker 1: 33:23

I haven't even heard of it, yeah, so here I'll show you I have covers for both.

Speaker 2: 33:27

Okay, let's see no one gets to fall apart. That's a beautiful cover beautiful cover. And then the phoenix pencil company, allison king. Yes, I did just see that where. Yes, so I am. I'm lucky I work at a library. The woman who runs our popular department keeps me in new books and she's like you have to read this one by allison king. It's like no book I've ever read and I started it and I like I actually can't wait to just keep reading it.

Speaker 1: 33:57

So I hope to finish it this week. I feel like it was in like a bookshoporg email or something. I've absolutely seen that cover and for some reason anything, any book with the word pencil or library in it the Midnight Library, the anything I'm done, paris Bookshop, little Paris Bookshop, bookshop, library or Bookstore I'm done, so I'll grab a copy of that for sure.

Speaker 2: 34:22

Yeah, so they're both great. And you know I'm always reading many things and then I'm also I have to read. After the Phoenix Pencil Company the summer we ran, so you were talking about Audrey Ingram and so I'm like, well, I have that next it's so good, I just finished it.

Speaker 1: 34:38

and I finished it maybe a week or two ago and I messaged her on Instagram because I could not go to sleep. I had to keep reading. It was just and it's funny because when she was on the show and I knew about the book and I had received the book, I initially heard or saw the summer we ran. I thought it was about running and I was like I'm going to hate this because I hate running. And then when I found out it was about politics, for some reason I was in.

Speaker 1: 35:06

I hate politics, but I was in because I love the drama behind it, it is so well done. You will absolutely love it. Good, you will absolutely love it. Awesome Well thank you for having me oh thank you so much, and I everybody, October 21st, grab a copy of Living Proof. I'm so excited to keep going through it and I hope we can stay in touch and do this novel writing thing.

Speaker 2: 35:33

Yes, I'll be your accountability partner. Thank you, and vice versa.

Speaker 1: 35:36

I need all the help I can get. Thank you so much.