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Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing.
Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
Ep 128: Book Publicity with Emily Florence
Click Here to ask your book writing and publishing questions!
This week, I’m joined by publicist Emily Florence, and we’re talking about how to set publicity goals before you start chasing them, why a Today Show appearance might not sell nearly as many books as you think, and how to make your marketing feel less like shouting into the void and more like having conversations that matter.
Here’s what we get into:
- Why knowing your goals (career author? credibility? visibility?) makes all the difference
- The surprising truth about big media hits (and what works better)
- Building an author platform that doesn’t rely on hacking the algorithm or pretending to be someone you’re not
- How to build a real-deal, supportive author community (no fake “collabs” required)
👉 CLICK HERE to get the first draft of your nonfiction or memoir written in 33 days!
...even if you don't have a cabin in the wilderness, 4 uninterrupted hours a day to write, or confidence that you're a "real" writer. No overwhelm, no confusion. Just simple, actionable steps.
Awesome Email Templates for Authors
From communicating with your launch team to building relationships with readers, my customizable templates take all the guesswork out of writing emails that turn email subscribers into loyal readers.
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Write the Damn Book Already is a weekly podcast featuring interviews with authors as well as updates and insights on writing craft and the publishing industry.
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Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory, if you're anything like me. In short, I love books and I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most impactful ways we connect with one another. A few things I don't believe in Gimmicks, magic bullets and swoon-worthy results without context, as in. Be sure to reveal that a result took eight years or required a $30,000 investment in ads, because those details are just as important. What I believe in most as an author, the long game, is the shortcut For more book writing and publishing tips and solutions. Visit publishaprofitablebookcom or visit me over on Instagram at ElizabethLionsAuthor. Hi everybody and welcome to this next episode of Write the Damn Book Already.
Speaker 1:When Emily Florence reached out to me about coming on the podcast, she well, she had me from the first paragraph, but she definitely had me when she mentioned that she had worked on Gilmore Girls as a publicist back in the day. That is a show. I'm almost borderline obsessed with it every fall. She's the author of Even Better, easier Ways to a Happier Life, which was noted as the feel-good book of 2024 by Yahoo Finance, and you're going to understand why when you have this conversation. I was just so happy when I understand why when you have this conversation I was just so happy when I got through the end of this conversation. I think, as typically happens with this podcast and with the book space in general, I found a new friend and it's definitely safe to say that this will not be my last conversation with Emily when it comes to book publicity. Much like my beloved Jen Hansen DePaula, emily is such a go-with-the-flow, no-pressure, no-drama person when it comes to author publicity and I know you are just going to love everything she has to say. So let's just get on with the conversation.
Speaker 1:First of all, I can't wait to talk about all things publicity, because it's such a it's like a minefield to talk about this and I feel like when we start talking about it, people get excited and then they get very. It. People get excited and then they get very. It's like it's trepidatious, because I think people wonder what am I going to have to do? And my motto, which you may or may not know, is you don't have to do anything. I think that's so important to remind people maybe just myself of we don't have to do anything, and yet if we don't do anything. We don't get to come back and go. Nothing's selling, no one's buying it and I feel like and this is a little bit of a longer segue or intro than I was anticipating here, but I don't know if you talk to, so I'm asking you do you talk to a lot of people who tend to lead with? I don't really care if my book makes any money.
Speaker 2:I have. So okay, so I work with, I mean I work with publishing houses and I host workshops for them, for their authors and then I work independently.
Speaker 2:I do, like I have a DIY PR course which is just self-study, I have group coaching, I have full service publicity and then I also have consulting, which is kind of the sweet spot. So I'll tell you and you and I are kind of alike, because I think we work with a lot of women entrepreneurs too. So to answer your question directly, it's yes and no. Like I have a client right now, lisa, who's like just she considers her book like a glorified business card, so she doesn't really care about all these book sales. It was more to give her kind of credibility. She also wanted to be on more stages and things like that. Right, readers, she definitely. And things like that, the readers, she definitely. It wasn't. Like that wasn't her top objective, right. And then I have other other clients or people I work with who are like 100% they want to, you know, make it their author career. They want to sell enough copies.
Speaker 1:That that's all they have to do. Yeah, well, and I think you raise a really good and interesting point. So last week I was talking to Melissa de la Cruz, who is, you know, was written 80, 80 books now Crazy, right. And her thing was you've got to know what your goal is. Yes, and I completely agree with that, and it's one of the first things that I talk to people about is what is your goal? So, in line with that, when someone says, well, I'm using my book as a glorified business card which I've talked about how much I hate that phrase I have I have a right. I'd see it in your face. But we, we both know what everybody means when they write, when they say that if I say right, one more time, I'm going to lose it.
Speaker 1:Knowing that your book is intended to be the entry point for people to find out more about you, to connect with you more, is a great. That's what a lot of people mean. When they say, I don't care if the book makes money, what they're saying is they don't care if they make a full-time living off sales of their book, which, as we all either know or will now know, is extraordinarily difficult to do Extraordinarily. Then there's the other side of it, where I hear people say well, I truly don't care if I make money, I just want to help people, which I think is so lovely, so, so lovely.
Speaker 1:Either they have another source of income or and they truly don't care if I make money, I just want to help people, which I think is so lovely, so, so lovely. Either they have another source of income or and they truly don't care. There's somewhere in the middle, though, where I think people say it because they're trying to protect themselves, because they're afraid. They know that they feel nervous about doing the publicity, and by telling themselves, I don't really care if it doesn't, it's protecting themselves from needing to go out and do something that they don't necessarily want to do. So I'm really excited to get your thoughts on what's and see the air quotes working, what's not working, what are some new things that people are trying? And first, I need to ask you what you did with the Gilmore Girls, because so good right.
Speaker 1:When you sent me your email, I mean you had me from the first paragraph. But when we got to the Gilmore Girls and you said you had worked on the Gilmore Girls and American Idol but the Gilmore Girls, I was like we're done here.
Speaker 2:I know it's just like my heart. Um, yeah, so I I did my master's in broadcast journalism from Emerson and then I was working in the news in um, producing Okay, and then I switched over. I wanted to come back to California. I went to LA and and started working as a publicist just the other side, you know, and at a phenomenal agency top in Beverly Hills. And so I was a publicist for in the TV department for American Idol, gilmore Girls, so you Think you Can Dance, just tons, a lot of shows. Gilmore Girls has a special place in my heart because sometimes you represent something and you absolutely love it, and sometimes you represent something and it's more just a job. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's a great point. Yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 2:It's so great and I can't believe like they left us, kind of like I am not.
Speaker 1:I'm still very displeased, I know.
Speaker 2:I'm like I know they've moved on and done all these other great shows, but I'm like can you just circle back?
Speaker 1:please Like, who leaves us off with I'm pregnant? Well, they did. I know I still love them. I mean it's I've watched it with both my daughters mostly my older daughter and we just watch it over and over. There's like a time of year when we always put it on.
Speaker 2:It's always in the fall, coming like I was just about to say, elizabeth, it's such a fall, yeah, it's a fall show Like it's so great. I know, I do too, I'm the same way I want to live there.
Speaker 1:I'm like, where is that? I know me too. Okay, I swear if I lived there I'd do a lot more book publicity. So tell me Hollywood. But bingo, bingo.
Speaker 1:So tell me, first of all, do you, do you know Jen Hanson DePaula? No, I don't. Okay, I need to connect the two of you. So Jen is my dear friend who I'm realizing you guys are extremely similar.
Speaker 1:She is, has been in book publicity for a long, long time, and before that she was in music publicity from you know, in the in Nashville for the a long long time, and before that she was in music publicity in Nashville in the music industry oh, fantastic. And so she has been for years my go-to for books, which is the other reason I was really excited to hear from you, because there just aren't many people in the space, I find, who authentically know what they're talking about, meaning they're willing to say I don't know, they're willing to admit this is a very odd, it's just kind of an odd space. There are no guarantees, we're all throwing darts at the wall and I think that even that, coming from an industry expert, professional, is so reassuring to authors. So just tell me, what do you love about book publicity? What do you feel like on the author side? What do you feel like is available now for authors that should excite and I don't like the word should, but should excite authors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'm just because I'm so passionate about helping authors and entrepreneurs, because I that's that's me too. You know, I have a book out and I've been on the journey and oh my gosh, and we have to champion each other and I am all about that, like I absolutely love connecting people too and helping them like share their books, and just let's all do this together. We're all in it together. So I'm a big believer in that and I just have always had a special passion for authors and for entrepreneurs and I think putting yourself out there is such a big deal and I commend every single person. It is not easy, but I really just connect with authors and entrepreneurs. That's why I kind of you know I left the entertainment world to say I want to really help people and then I also want to help people help themselves. So what was your question again, elizabeth?
Speaker 1:That's the best moment. So where were we going? Like, what do you find exciting, my brother?
Speaker 2:would be like land the plane.
Speaker 1:Listen, if we don't keep this reined in Emily, we're both going to go. The whole audience is going to be like are they ever going to come back to center? Will they ever land the plane? And the answer is I don't. I don't know. My original question was what is exciting to you about? You know, for authors I mean, let me just say really quickly, because you said something and if I don't say it I'll forget it.
Speaker 1:I have talked to a lot of authors at this point in the traditional indie hybrid, it doesn't matter how they're published, and one thing I have come to really rest assured with is that, even though the book industry is very windy and it's turbulent and it's unpredictable and, as Jane Friedman said, it's the one area that she can think of and I can't think of one either, another one either where there are no guarantees, you know it's not like well, if you stick with this for 10 years, you are assured to fill in the blank. You're not assured to anything beyond finish the next book, because that's the only thing over which you have control. We've certainly heard and seen the cattiness that can happen in this industry, sadly, especially among women in the Goodreads community, et cetera. That being said, I find this to be one of the most supportive, lovely communities. I have met some of my dearest friends. Like people like I'm already, I can already tell you you're not we're, you're not rid of me when we get off this interview.
Speaker 1:I find that it's such a wonderful space where people don't feel like it's my book or your book so I've got to be cutthroat. It could be both. Let's figure out how someone who likes my book will also benefit from your book and let's see how we could do this together, which also creates this sense of I'm not alone in this. I'm doing it with someone else. So if we win, we both win. If we air quote fail, we both fail, we do it together. And it feels a little safer. Absolutely. I agree 100%. When you work with authors, because you do it in a whole bunch of different capacities. When you get started with someone who says and this is even a hard question because it's going to depend on genre but, like, I want to get my book out there to as many people who will enjoy it as possible, do you have a a first step?
Speaker 2:Yes, I do and I have a first step for everybody too, and it's like it's kind of what you were mentioning too goals. I always kind of start with objectives same thing, different, different. And I find that authors that I work with it's one of three things. For the most part, it's either number one they want an author career and they want to sell books. I mean, this is like something. It's not just that they poured their heart into one project, they want a future for this Another, you know. Then also there's the other people who are like you know what this is just like we talked about the business card. They're like I want this book to build credibility.
Speaker 2:So many people I meet, especially in the nonfiction genre, especially people who are coaches or they have, you know, some sort of practices. They want to see themselves as like the go-to on CNN or the go-to on the Today Show or being, you know, speaking on stages. It's not like they really poured their heart. They're not like me who want to like, enjoy, like sitting in a room for seven hours alone typing, like I love that, right? Not everybody is like, right. So and then there's other people who really just, they're like I just want visibility. They're like I just want to be out there and kind of with any campaign there is a little bit of you know, throwing something against the wall and seeing what sticks. But it is so important that people at least have an idea of their number one, number two, number three objectives, because it's going to it's changes the whole way that you're going to go about things. Like if I want like, for your example, if somebody says I want to get this book in the hands of as many readers as possible who are also going to appreciate it and get value from it. Right, which is so important you pour your heart into something. You want other people, you want to have a positive impact on others. Books change lives in the best way. So in that kind of situation you would be like okay, we want to target, you want to be really, really clear on who your audience is, and then you want to get in the media that are going to be serving that audience.
Speaker 2:So that's not necessarily the same situation for somebody who says, hey, I want to build credibility. Now, credibility is always going to be about media logos that are very recognizable. Now, they don't have to be recognizable across like national media, as far as the today show or a GMA or or whatever, or NPR or entrepreneur Forbes, it can also be in that genre, you know. So I have a client right now that I'm working with and she's a mom of four and she wrote this incredible book about, you know, doing less in motherhood, like kind of modern motherhood, and her credibility. While she does, you know it is one of her, you know, targets to objectives. She does want to be, you know, at some point at the GMA couch, so we're working on pitches for you know, figuring that out, but also a lot of the mom podcast blogs, media. They might not be recognizable to everyone, but when she has those logos on her website or somebody says she's been here, it's credibility for her in that genre Right.
Speaker 1:Right. So question about that how reasonable do you feel it is anymore to shoot for, say, today Show, good Morning America, beyond it being a bucket list item? Yeah, Right, so I know that a lot of people that you know. When Oprah was on, that was the dream I want to be on Oprah, so many people would say that.
Speaker 1:What people don't, what a lot of people don't realize, is that the reality of, and especially today, but the reality of getting on the Today Show is you're going to move fewer than 300 books by being on the Today Show, and that was even maybe a decade ago. Like, I don't even know what it is today because people don't have cable anymore. And so how many people are actually watching the Today Show? Now to your point. If you can say I was on the Today Show for even 30 seconds, yes, it absolutely gives you credibility, because the Today Show will not bring on someone who is not credible.
Speaker 1:As far as the moving books, as far as the moving books, right, I often have to reset people's expectations with that because, number one, it doesn't do in someone such as yourself to help them craft the pitch to get them on the show and all those sorts of things. So I think it really is about assessing what are your goals in doing this. Same with New York Times bestseller list, same with all of that there are people paying six figures to get on the bestseller list, just to say I got on. So how do you set people's expectations? Because, coming from the Hollywood side of it, right, I certainly understand your potential position of look, there is validity to those things too, so just tell me your perspective on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah so, and I and I love to manage people's expectations and also I'm a big optimist and I've seen the big things happen, right Like there's magic everywhere.
Speaker 1:I mean, look at my, I don't know if people, if they're not watching, but I have a whole thing that says everything is possible.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I'm also it's like the optimist, with a side of heavy, side dose of realism A hundred percent, a hundred percent, with a side a heavy side dose of realism A hundred percent, a hundred percent, and I also, I always tell people who I, you know, work with um and even just talking to you know you really have to have patience and tenacity, absolutely Like you really really have to. And I remember I don't want to go on a tangent, so let me go back. So how do I manage those expectations? I mean, I'm a big believer in if you have a calling like if you're like I want to be on GMA, like one of my clients, that is her goal, like that is where she's seen herself and all the things I'm all about. Let's swing for the fences and also let's create a strategy that you're also going to see other results, because there's all, there's momentum in all of this stuff. You can talk about it from a mindset, energetic, perspective, where it's just really unhealthy to hear no all the time.
Speaker 2:As somebody who's also, you know, worked with like the American idols, like the media coaching, you know you have people coming from all over the country and they're like Ryan Seacrest, like welcome to Hollywood, and suddenly they're being interviewed by, you know, national media, walking red carpets. They're like what do I say? What do I do? There is this element, too, of like get your feet wet, get really comfortable with your sound bites, with your talking points, just you know. So I like to do a little bit of both.
Speaker 2:I like to encourage people in whatever strategy we ultimately or they create or I create with them co-create. I like to have them. You know you want to have dreams. I mean that's so important, of course. And also you need to kind of be a realistic. And I mean personally and I know you asked this earlier, elizabeth, and I didn't really answer it Like where I find people are having the most success right now and the definition of success meaning they're connecting with actual readers and people who are really interested in their books are podcasts, and podcasts there's so many reasons. It's like, number one, they live on forever or for a long time. And number two, like books don't get old. Books have a long tail. You know, I can hear about a book that was out five years ago. I don't care that it launched five years ago, I'm going to go buy it.
Speaker 1:It's not it's you know, I'm going to, I'm interrupting you again because I will forget.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I heard the other day? That I didn't know what Taylor Jenkins read? Um, seven wives of Evelyn Hugo. Have you read this? Uh-uh? Okay, I need you to. I don't know what genre you like, but it doesn't matter. I need you to put this on your list. This was my first Taylor Jenkins read that I got my hands on and it blew my mind. That was a. I believe she released it. I might be missing, like 2017, but it was a COVID breakthrough. It did not go berserk until COVID, for some reason right. So, three years later, and the same can be said that the other example I've given for years is you are a badass.
Speaker 2:Yes, Jen Sincero.
Speaker 1:I talk about that all the time. It was like four years and it was not expected. Yes, it was traditionally published. It was like four years and it was not expected. Yes, it was traditionally published, it was not expected. Never she does what I do. She was a book coach, a little differently, but same thing. And then I don't know, right place, right time, right cover, right who knows what, and off it goes. So it does have a very long tail, especially today, and even traditionally published authors today are given a little bit more leeway by their publisher. It used to be like three weeks If you don't get this baby moving in three weeks, we're done. Now they've got months, if not sometimes even a year or so. They give them because they know there's always something new they can try, totally Right.
Speaker 2:So podcasts are absolutely and books are very word of mouth. It's like somebody says you got to read this book, emily, I'm going to buy it. Like you, I'm like, okay, putting that in my little cart right now. Like I'm like putting in that, putting that in my little cart right now, um. But, but yeah, podcasts. I I steer clients towards and my coaching students towards at least exploring podcasts, for those reasons that they live for a long time.
Speaker 2:Um, you also get um, you know SEO, that you know if they, oftentimes you'll ask the host to link to your website in the show notes and so you have some search engine optimization going on, which is always lovely. And you also, you know most, you know ones that are recorded. You can say to the host you know, can I get a copy? And then go and have your VA, your virtual assistant, or do it yourself. You make clips so you can have, like, out of an hour podcast interview, you could have four or five clips that you can repurpose on social media. You know, it's just, it's, it's. I find it's the gift that keeps on giving. Yes, it's the gift that keeps on giving, yes, and also, podcasts are rare in the sense that they allow you to go deep and to really connect with people, where even you know I have people. I just booked somebody the other day on an NPR and that's great. Npr can go a little bit more like 10, 15 minutes versus like a little bit.
Speaker 1:You just go so deep with podcasts, well, that's a great point because with news, you know if you're on a local you've got two minutes. It can feel like the longest and shortest two minutes of your life. That's it. There's no depth to that, it's just. Hey, I was on this news channel this morning from uh, if we pull it back to a very grassroots keeping with the podcast theme, but a very grassroots look, I'm a new author. I'm not really comfortable with this. Yet I don't have a huge platform. You know I'm trying to get out. There Would podcasts and social media.
Speaker 1:What are some ways that you encourage people that are like bang for your buck, so to speak? Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I think people hear oh, you've got to post three times a day and I can't even maintain, I can't and I you know with podcasts to go back to that for two seconds. One, well, a little more than two seconds. But the thing is that's somewhere that some people might hate it when I say this. That's a great place to use ChatGPT because you can have it, help you come up with ideas for how to parse out a podcast clip or podcast show notes or whatever into multiple different types of content, and chat GPT can also be a great way to help. You can't I don't believe you should copy paste. You got to make it sound like you, but come up with ideas. So how do you help people start who are like I don't have the ability or the desire to do three posts a day? Show my face. What valuable content am I going to provide? I've written romanticism, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, it's such a great question After so many years of doing workshops and helping people. That's when I created this DIY PR course, because I don't like to break people's banks and everybody, every author has a different. If anybody's listening and they don't know. Like, if you're going to hire a decent, good publicist for three months, which is usually a minimum, it's going to be from $10,000 to $15,000. Thank you, it is not cheap, it's not, it's not at all. It's a huge investment and it's wonderful for people that it's wonderful for. And also, there are so many people I started meeting, so many people who were like I can't, that's just not you know, and it's not that it's not possible for me personally, like I want.
Speaker 2:I want us all to do the best that we can and I also believe there's so many people who I work with clients, I teach them, I coach them. They can do it themselves. Elizabeth, they're not going to do it all, but they don't have to. Like we kind of started out in the beginning. You don't have to do it all. You can do a little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit there and watch the momentum kind of build.
Speaker 2:I'm also a big believer in like strategy and I know that's kind of like a word that can appeal to people and also be like. But I like it because I like to help people like put. You know, I was playing dominoes with my niece the other day and it was like I like to help them put dominoes in a row and flick the one that's going to have everything come into alignment, like I'm all about like let's take the overwhelm and the stress out of it as much as possible and be smart about it. But to answer your question, like I have a DIY PR course. I also have group coaching students and then I offer like single sessions to give those people like some one-on-one, because everyone needs some one-on-one at a rate. That's, you know, much more affordable than investing in a publicist.
Speaker 2:And I would say get started with some sort of roadmap. You know, of course I want to tell everybody come join my DIY PR course. I'll take great care of you, I'll give you all the information, but you don't have to do that. There's so many resources out there, but you really do have to have an. You need to start with what do I want, just like we started with. Like what do I want? You also have to give yourself some time. You have to be realistic of, like, what's a three month plan? And I'm going to commit to it? Right, and hey, why not ask chat GPT to help you with that? Right, you know. But I, every person is different, but, and how much time they have in their day, or or whatnot? This one client of mine who I mentioned earlier, she's a mother of four and, uh, she's doing incredible and she also has she doesn't have five hours a day to work on pitches and whatnot.
Speaker 2:But I would say decide what you want, get really clear on what you want, give yourself a timeline three, six months a year and I would say go after podcasts. You need to. The most important thing you need to do, after identifying what you want, is who. The most important thing you need to do after identifying what you want is who you're trying to attract. Who are your readers? Because it is so pointless to spend all this time pitching to a podcast where, let's say, your ideal reader is a woman who's 30 years old. That's pretty vague, that's not even very specific, but let's just go with that. You're going to have so much more success. You're going to feel so much better and see the results when you pitch to podcasts. Who that's their target. That's their listeners, even if it's a smaller podcast 100%, Elizabeth, 100%.
Speaker 1:So many times people will say to me well, I want to get Gary V or um, I don't know why I always use that example, but it's funny because, you know, I used to. You know, maybe five years ago, I had a lot more male clients than, like you know, and I I've switched a little bit. I work with far more women at this point than men. I still work with men, but far more women, and at the time, though, it was the reverse, and so, for some reason, Gary Vee was the. He was the blurb du jour. That's what everybody wanted, and what was interesting about it was, I said look, Gary, yes, has millions of people following him and listening to him and doing whatever he says.
Speaker 1:If your book is a romance novel, I'm guessing there are like 17 people in his audience that would run and grab that. On the flip side, you can get yourself on a smaller podcast that maybe has it's newer, which, by the way, is a lot easier to get yourself on. It's not. You can't even make contact with Call Her Daddy. I mean, you know, hello, like that's. Probably my dream at this point is to be on Call Her Daddy, but you can't even reach those hosts directly. You know there's a whole process for that and it's very much like in the traditional publishing world. A lot of the editors, the acquisitions editors, will only talk to agents. In the podcasting world, a lot of those booking folks will only talk to publicists.
Speaker 2:And so sometimes the gatekeepers, yeah, the gatekeepers.
Speaker 1:And sometimes, when you're paying that 1010,000 to $15,000 to $25,000 for a three-month retainer with a publicist, that is what you're paying for is the fact that they have not just a list but they have a personal. The more personal relationships they have, the more you are understandably and reasonably going to be asked to pay for that. That. Just to me, that makes total sense. So if you can find a smaller podcast that's just getting its legs and you can reach out to the host directly, but their listeners are exactly your market, yes, you are going to have more traction with that than you will going to talk to the Gary Vee folks.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And then it kind of like we kind of mentioned earlier, it's snowball, somebody will hear you on that podcast and they'll be like, oh, I want her to be on my show or I want to follow this person and now I'm going to connect. It's just wild, like visibility, it it is you really. Once you get in there, it just happens. It's beautiful. I love it. And, again, I think podcasts are the gift that keep on keeps on giving. Granted, there are some people who are like I don't want to be on camera because podcasts you know now, like 90% of or 80, I don't know the percentage, but a lot of them I don't either. But right, and I'm always like, okay, let's do a little media co-chair, let's get your feet wet, you know cause you do have to push yourself and not all of them are on camera and not all of them.
Speaker 1:This one, for example, isn't. I mean, I do clips, but I have yet to put this on YouTube as video, because I truly have to hire someone for that. I don't have another thing. And then some people just don't even want it.
Speaker 2:They're like I don't know how to show up or whatever but that's where you know you can also.
Speaker 2:there's so many. I was just working with somebody recently who we just got a blog post of hers. Like, honestly, we repurposed one of her sub stack newsletters or emails or articles, I should say, on CNBC their Sunday edition. Now I don't know how many readers she you know how many book sales she gets from that, but I do like that there's a direct link to her website. I do like that there's these direct links for ease and also for search engine optimization and then you get some credibility with that media logo as well.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:There are other ways that I say right, this second I'm like dive into podcast. Do it, you won't regret it.
Speaker 1:I think what a lot of people in this space don't recognize, because unfortunately, the loudest voices are often the ones that are saying I can teach you in five minutes how to make 17 good trillion dollars and it's only going to cost you seven dollars. But I can, you know I can do that, or it's going to cost you 70,000. Who knows. What a lot of people don't realize is how long of a game this is, and I take great comfort in that, because if I feel like, oh my gosh, I have five minutes to figure this out and if I don't, I'm dead in the water, that gives me great anxiety. I love the idea that it's just kind of it's its own story pun intended being told. One of my sons the other day actually asked me because I got two more books in the mail. One was from the new book of poems by Miranda Cowley Heller, who is from Paper Palace, and the other was Jane Hamilton's new one. But they're both arcs and I was just so excited I just thought I can't believe that these are just showing up on my doorstep. And my son said how are you getting these people on the podcast? And I said you know what? I'm a hundred. And not only am I 128 episodes in, but this is my fourth podcast and I've been doing this for nine years the book, the book coaching thing, not the podcast.
Speaker 1:The podcast has only been about a year, but in that time I've met people who have said oh, let me, you need to have Jordan. Roeder was on, you know, several weeks ago and she said you've got to have Melissa De La Cruz. That's how Melissa and I connected. And so once Jordan who's friends with Melissa reaches out and says, hey, melissa, you've got to go on this podcast, melissa's like okay, but those things take time and I don't look at things as being transactional. I'm never having someone on this podcast so that I can then go back to them and say hey, so I had you on my podcast, can you introduce me to someone? I've never done that and I think there might be people who would tell me that I've missed an opportunity there. That just never felt good to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I and I think the whole thing and I love that, I love what you're saying so much because it is the author community is so embracing and it is so wonderful. You just have to connect with the right people. Wonderful, you just have to connect with the right people. Put your heart into honestly.
Speaker 2:something else I do because when I was working in the entertainment world especially, you have you know so many people doing trying to get product placement or this and that, like I, send out mailers to influencers all the time. Now, influencer is a very interesting word.
Speaker 1:It really is, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I don't even really gravitate. I'm not a big fan of that word.
Speaker 1:Me either.
Speaker 2:I don't know how else to say it, but let me say I will send out to people. It could be a female entrepreneur who I've taken one of her programs, or it could be an author who I respect, or Kristen Davis. Recently she's the actress on Charlotte on Sex and City.
Speaker 2:And I never worked with her in person, but I remember when I was living in LA after Hurricane Katrina, I volunteered with a rescue organization called Rescue for Refugees and they brought in, you know, hundreds of dogs and cats who were like abandoned in New Orleans, and she was part of it and we all just took. I ended up fostering a dog for like four months.
Speaker 2:She was just absolutely so lovely, and when my book came out, I felt that she would really like it, and so, you know, I sent her a copy with you know, just a mailer that has some QR codes and stuff like that, but a heartfelt letter and I guess like to land the plane on this one. I think that it's all about being authentic, doing what feels good in your heart, being on those shows that you actually like and respect, like I just adore you, I'm like, I love Elizabeth, I just think you're fantastic on so many levels, but I think that the more that you connect with people not try to make it transactional, but really like genuinely like.
Speaker 2:I want to know you and I want to be in your world and I want to support you. I write reviews for people all the time. Yes, you know, I share shelfies like I'll get a book. It doesn't even have to be a client and I'll take a picture and you know a little selfie posted on Instagram. I'll do everything to support.
Speaker 1:You know, you, you do kind of get like. This past week I was in Portland and so my oldest daughter and I went to Powell's and, by the way, no one like I would have really appreciated a little warning, meaning, get a plan for like five hours, take a suitcase, buy an extra suitcase, like all the things, okay. And so we go into Powell's and if anyone's been to anyone who has been to Powell's who's listening, knows exactly what I mean. It's four floors, you're in a maze, it's just, it's unbelievable. And I found I was looking for I'm always looking for my friend's books in there. I have a local group of writers that I've become really close to and I'm always looking at okay, are there books here? Are there books here? And my friend, neely Chobati Alexander, just launched her newest one, courtroom Drama. So I was looking for that, and whenever I see them, I take pictures and I post them to social media.
Speaker 1:And then we went to um, where were we? Cannon beach, and there was this darling bookstore, cannon beach books company. It was so I can't even. They had one copy of every book that they sold, just one, which made me think of Ryan Holiday's store in, I think, austin, the Red Porch, I think it's called Because he too, I believe they only stock one copy of each book, so they can have. It's not a huge store, and so I was like, oh my God, this is I don't even know.
Speaker 1:It was great, though, and one of the first books I saw was Super Bloom by Meg Tatey, who I love, and I just was like, oh my God, like she's here, you know. And then I discovered another book called Libby Lost and Found, and when I was growing up, my nickname was Libby until eighth grade, and you never see that and so I immediately bought that. It's by Stephanie Booth, if I'm not mistaken. I'll put it in the show notes. And then I posted that and Stephanie replied, and that's how I connected with Stephanie. Like it's not about transactions, it's really about just. So, even if you're an author and you're not sure how to promote your own book, here's an idea Just start promoting other people's books.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, how often? Because I know people do like tactical. They're like oh, this sounds great and everything, but what can I do? So if someone's just getting going on Instagram or the? So what is your recommendation? Is it pick one platform? Is it pick three platforms? Is it post five times a day? Is it be? How do you? If someone is really unsure and I know we're giving general advice here and you'd give much more specific advice if you were working with someone one-on-one but how do you kind of what's some general guidance you can provide?
Speaker 2:Okay, it's so, so important, such a great question I am. I like to be very strategic about everything. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'll throw a story up there. That's just my silly dog. If there's not an intention behind it, it's just fine, you know. But but when? When it comes to efforts, I don't like to waste my time, I like to um, I'd rather be writing, right, you know. So I'm not a big social media person. I'm not a big fan of it. Um, it's not good for, like, my brain and stuff. However, I understand the importance of it. So I'm a big believer in going deep versus wide, and I also believe that.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know, I know we're like so, we're so aligned, we're so in sync.
Speaker 1:So aligned, but I am.
Speaker 2:I'm like let's go deep versus wide, you can't be everywhere.
Speaker 2:You can't do all the things, and just because somebody told you you should be on this platform, if it doesn't speak to you, if it gives you a headache when you're there, go somewhere else. You know there's plenty of places to go. So the number the first thing that I always recommend people to do for, let's say, an author platform, because it's what everyone talks about, right? So I have. I've always recommended clients to have a newsletter of some sort. Now I don't anymore, necessarily because Substack has become so big, but I still do. But for people it can I mean up to, I think, depending on who like MailChimp, I think is up to 500 contacts free, but when you start paying money, I understand my list is very large.
Speaker 1:So it's it's as an author. Is your last list very large, or as a? Or? Do you have two separate lists? No, they're all the same Selfish question. Okay, I'm in the same boat, so I have.
Speaker 2:Okay, and I only send out a newsletter now monthly, the first Friday of every month, and then when there's like special announcements and stuff. But I used to be weekly, but I don't do that anymore. As far as, so, let's talk about having somewhere that they can put in their email address, like having something where you can reach them in some way, where it's written content I believe is important because it's a longer form. You can also get them to your Instagram through that email or the newsletter, like, oh my God, I just posted this. It was hilarious, did you see it? You know? Yeah, whatever, but also for social media, choose one or two and go deep versus wide. So for me personally, do I have a LinkedIn? Of course I do. Am I on it? No, I have so many people who should be on LinkedIn. I'm like eh, you know, I also, um, I have um. Instagram is kind of my go-to, I guess.
Speaker 2:Uh and I post usually two to three times a week. I try to do one reel times a week. I try to do one reel and then I also do usually two static posts and I do stories usually about five times a week. Okay, this is so refreshing. I also am very intentional. Once a week, like I have a whole list of things that I want to promote. So, like once a week, like I'll post in a story a review of the week for my book, right Like a, either create it in Canva or take a screenshot of something and just be like oh, it's a review. Thank you so much to everyone who's reviewed. If you read it and you haven't, I would really appreciate it. Blah, blah, blah. Or here's my book. It's on sale this week or you know. So it's. It's kind of like it's Instagram with intention.
Speaker 2:Ooh, look at you creating a buzz phrase, but it's also, but it's also to connect with people Like I really want to provide them value. I'm I'm like. The world is dark on social media, so I like to provide inspiration and light.
Speaker 1:Well, it's never ending too. You know, and I think we, when I talked to Jane Friedman a couple of weeks ago so a few episodes back, if anyone wants to go listen to it we talked a lot about Substack, because Jane has a successful Substack. Jane also has an enormous audience. Yes, and I think a lot of people at this point will feel like, oh my gosh is Substack. The new thing Is that where I need to be Much like is Periscope.
Speaker 1:I always joke about Periscope because I feel like it was around for about 45 seconds. For those 45 seconds, every major influencer and guru and everybody was like go, go, go. Same thing, sort of same thing with threads, although threads has held on. I haven't held on to threads, I've let go of threads, but it as a platform has stayed fairly. And now there's blue sky and there's just so many and I think it can be so easy to think, oh, the magic is over there and it's like no, the magic is where you take the time to deeply build community, get your algorithm work. I hate the word so much, but I recently reset mine and finally I'm seeing books and not clips from white Lotus, which I was. I mean, listen, the algorithm works, if nothing else, because all I was talking about and watching at that time it was the when the last season came out of white Lotus was was White Lotus. It knows what you're into.
Speaker 1:So your Discover page is very indicative of not only what Instagram specifically is showing you, but who Instagram is showing your stuff to. The author space is just tricky because it's and this is a whole podcast in and of itself. Maybe we'll do another one on this like just instagram, how to? Maybe you, jen and I can all get on a three-way podcast, right and and like, because that's not, that's you guys all day. I'm over here just predominantly experimenting, but I've never been a person who does great with a schedule, and I'm following someone right now who I really enjoy. She's not an author, but she is a social media content creator person and her thing is you've got to post at exactly to the minute, the same time every day, so that Instagram learns that you are reliable. And I thought well, I'm not reliable. Right, you can rely on the fact that I am not reliable. I don't even know what day it is, emily, and you want me to remember to post at 9.07?
Speaker 2:want me to remember to post at nine, oh seven, like I, well, and I'm all about inspired action, because I believe in energy behind every single thing.
Speaker 2:I know it sounds woo woo but like it's just, it is what it is. But there's also scheduling tools. You know, like later, where it'll post it for you. And see, I don't like to do scheduling tools, I don't mind, um, and I've done it for clients, I've done it for people like the back end of the scheduling tool, but instead of posting it, you want to say send me an alert and I'll post it myself, because, my goodness, you don't want to post, like the happiest thing in the world, unbeknownst to you, five minutes.
Speaker 1:That's my greatest fear.
Speaker 2:Totally so, 100%. And also, I tell people you can change your mind, like Glennon Doyle was all over Instagram for a long time with her podcast and everything and then all of a sudden she was like I'm not going to be on social media anymore. It's not good for me. She created with MailChimp, just a newsletter, just a general newsletter. Then she I think because Elizabeth Gilbert is such a just a general newsletter.
Speaker 2:Then she, I think because Elizabeth Gilbert is such a like a fan of Substack. She's like now I'm coming out with Substack and you're like okay. And then, like the next day or three days later, it's like you know what? I didn't really like Substack. So now I'm back to the newsletter.
Speaker 1:And you're like all right, and you know what, that's okay, as long as, in my world, as long as you're not jumping just to jump and you're just jumping all. Sometimes you have to make a move and then in order to say, I like this or I don't, or I liked this and now I don't, and you don't know.
Speaker 2:You don't always know what it's like until you get in there. You know that's the thing too. It's just everything in life, right?
Speaker 1:And I love scheduling. I use later. For a long time Now I use Tailwind occasionally, only occasionally. But then people will come to the forefront and say, well, if you use a scheduling tool, instagram deprioritizes it. So then you're like what do I do? And I think what it comes down to is know what your goal is, know who you are, know what you're capable of and know that it can change.
Speaker 2:And it does, and it changes all the time and you'll never master the rules of the algorithms, because when you do, it'll change Correct, or you know.
Speaker 1:Instagram used to be just a picture, now it's reels and stories and this and that, so it's sort of like Now it's four by five and not one to one and I think that, whether you're an author or another type of creator, or even just a business owner, an entrepreneur, whatever, you get caught up because we want to be able to control it.
Speaker 1:We don't want to feel like we're wasting time. Nobody wants to feel like they're wasting time. No one wants to feel like they're shouting into the void, which is what so much of this often feels like, and I think the knowledge and the reassurance that that's what everyone's doing and you're not behind because you're in that space. You're just one of us in that space, you're. You're just one, you're just one of us. Yeah, Um, there are people who have hundreds and hundreds of thousands of followers with no engagement. There are people who have very small numbers of followers with massive off platform businesses and engagement. There are people who eschew social media altogether and do just fine, but it's you know, and so, okay, we're going to do another episode where I'm going to call Jen. We're going to do like a three thing. That would be really, I think, with some really tactical, practical stuff. I would love that. Wouldn't that be fun?
Speaker 2:So fun It'd be so helpful because this is the number one thing. It doesn't matter who I'm working with or if I'm doing a workshop for a publishing house or whatever. The number one thing people are so overwhelmed they keep hearing authors are like I have to have a platform, I have to do this, I have to do that. I want people to buy my books. Wait, and it's so overwhelming and anything that we can do to simplify, take the stress away and have. I think it's so important for people to celebrate their work, like have fun with it too. Like you know, it's there's so much to be proud of and not to get caught up in like all the that. I have to do this and I have to do it that way. Throw that out the window, do it your way.
Speaker 1:It's such an accomplishment just to release the book.
Speaker 1:Yes, and what's interesting is, I find that author's launch day is often the most anticlimactic day, because it's just, I don't know what we expect, but it just that happens and we're like okay, and then what it feels like is and I'm just kind of realizing this right now, and we're like okay, and then what it feels like is and I'm just kind of realizing this right now it feels like you've reached the top of the mountain, because you published the book that you've been working on or thinking about or dreaming about for so long, and then in an instant, you're at the bottom of the new mountain which is now how do I get this to be seen?
Speaker 1:So sometimes I tell people that the writing of it, if you're looking at it as a long journey, if you look at it as one huge mountain, the writing of it is the first third, the editing of it is the second third and the promo of it. In fact, you could even divide it into quarters, where it's like the writing is the first quarter, the editing is the second quarter, the launching and the promo is the hat is the final half. It's like summits, right, absolutely, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:Instead, because I think it's very I like that.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it feels not good for people when they launch and then they're like, oh God, like, are we there yet? And so if your perspective is switched right from the jump of, first of all, there is no summit, really, unless you have a self-defined one. If your self-defined summit is I launched the book, then you're not even listening to this episode because you don't care about any of this, right? If your self-defined summit is I want to be on the New York Times list, then that's your North star. That's what you're shooting for, and for each book it can be different as well. So, okay, we're going to do another one. I always ask people what are you reading now?
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh, it's such a great question and it's so funny. Okay, so I? I am one of those people that has a couple of books that I reread one or two times a year.
Speaker 1:What are they here? That's a lot, you know, okay, but what are they Cause if? If it's one of the ones that I read, I don't know what I'm gonna do. Oh my gosh, okay Well one of them.
Speaker 2:It's one of my favorite books in the whole entire world. It's the alchemist by Paolo Coelho. No really, we're like twinning.
Speaker 1:It's so good, right? Every time I read it, I get something different Every time and it's such a good thing. Would you believe, Emily, that I interviewed someone and I would call her out by name? But I'm not going to try to get hate thrown her way because she's lovely, she was lovely and she hated the Alchemist Really, yes, but I'm okay with it. I told her that I said listen, this is, I mean, I accept you. I'm judging you a little bit, but I like, for every incredible book that someone's like this is the best thing I've ever, ever, ever read, there will be someone who's like this sucks, I hated this.
Speaker 2:Oh no, and that's so true, it's 100%. But I mean Palakwa paula, like when you think about the alchemist.
Speaker 1:It was, wasn't it like years until people even knew about it the story is and I don't know if it's true, because I got to get paulo on the. Oh my god, mr coelho. Um, as the story goes, he sold one copy to someone in the first year. That person lost their copy and bought another copy, so he sold two copies, but it was to the same person, and then it went out of print and he knocked on every door, like not every house door, but the door of every publishing house in whatever country he was in, and they all said no. And then look at it now. And then look at it now.
Speaker 2:And also talking about a long tail books. I believe it was last year, it could have been, let's just say, in the last 18 months. Will Smith was coming out with a big movie or something. He was being interviewed or somebody said what was your favorite book growing up? Or whatever. He said oh the alchemist. And he talks about Santiago and the journey. And the next thing you know, number one, you know again, right Again.
Speaker 2:And then it's got like a hundred, because I follow him on Instagram and he usually posts like just a couple of he doesn't do anything fancy and it doesn't but anyways and he did like a thank you to Will Smith like on his Instagram he usually just posts his morning walk but I was like this is the magic of books.
Speaker 1:You know the point. I want to get to Emily, where I just post my morning walk and people care or don't.
Speaker 2:I don't care, and that's it.
Speaker 1:That's it, okay. What's the second book you read every year?
Speaker 2:Um, I also read, not necessarily every year, but a lot. I revisit the four agreements, a lot by Don McGill. I just think it's really good, um, especially kind of when I feel like the world gets a little chaotic or something like. I just feel like it grounds me and it's just it's packed with really important principles. I think, and you know, I kind of I tend to rotate between a novel and some sort of personal growth, like something that'll kind of like or a bio or something you know, just something.
Speaker 1:Something you could, and I learn a lot from fiction as much as I learned from non-fiction. It's so interesting, but I do. And okay, well, I adore you and we are going to do another one with Jen DePaula.
Speaker 2:I would love that.
Speaker 1:She doesn't know it yet, but I'm going to tell her in about five minutes and thank you so much. I will put all of your links in the notes and we're going to do this again. Thank you, elizabeth, I can't wait. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message, but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon. Thank you.
