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Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing.
Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
Ep 125: The Business of Being a Writer with Jane Friedman
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In this no-fluff episode, publishing powerhouse Jane Friedman speaks to the aspects of writing and publishing that every aspiring author needs to hear about.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT:
- The myth of the full-time writer dream—and why your day job might be your secret weapon
- How to build an author platform without selling your soul
- The hard truth about bookstore distribution and hybrid publishing
- How sponsorships can turn your author newsletter into a profitable platform—and why subscriptions might not be the move
- What nobody tells you about post-publication anxiety (spoiler: publishing a book doesn’t magically fix your inner critic)
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Write the Damn Book Already is a weekly podcast featuring interviews with authors as well as updates and insights on writing craft and the publishing industry.
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Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory, if you're anything like me. In short, I love books and I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most impactful ways we connect with one another. A few things I don't believe in Gimmicks, magic bullets and swoon-worthy results without context, as in be sure to reveal that a result took eight years or required a $30,000 investment in ads, because those details are just as important. What I believe in most as an author, the long game, is the shortcut For more book writing and publishing tips and solutions. Visit publishaprofitablebookcom or visit me over on Instagram at ElizabethLionsAuthor. Hi everybody and welcome to episode 125 of Write the Damn Book. Already, I cannot believe we've gotten to 125. Back when I was at three, I thought, oh my God, will I ever make it to 20? And here we are.
Speaker 1:I have been following Jane Friedman for years. I've been a subscriber to her Hot Sheet newsletter, which is now the bottom line, as well as Electric Speed, which comes out, I think I want to say every two weeks, but it might be once a month. It always has the best resources and the best tips, not always even related to writing. I don't think there's ever been an issue. I haven't learned about a new resource, and everyone I talk to when I bring up Jane everyone says the same thing. She's just such a gift to the writing and publishing community. There's something about her demeanor that is so calming to me. Maybe I should ask her to put together like a meditation app or something, and her perspective on the industry. I think one of the reasons that she's so calming to me, and always has been, is because, as we talk about in the interview, she's not a pendulum swinger. She really stays. She's incredibly optimistic, but not in a Pollyanna kind of way. She stays very close to center, so she doesn't swing left and right with the trends. She's very good about knowing what people are talking about, but she doesn't have this approach that's like oh my God, everyone, stop everything and run over here. Okay, now stop everything and run over here, which I love, because I don't like running metaphorically or literally. So I was beyond thrilled when she agreed to come on and chat about what is going on now in the publishing space. Ai is always a big right now topic of conversation and it was great to get her insights on that, and it wasn't a big shock that when we finished the interview, I just felt really light and excited.
Speaker 1:To get back to what I do, if you are not following Jane or if this is the first time you're hearing of Jane, all of her contact info is in the episode notes so that you can follow her out on Instagram, subscribe to her newsletters and also benefit for her incredible information and way of delivering it. So, without further ado, let us hop into the conversation. I think I've got it here and I don't know how much of this will be video or not, but the only book I might have that will end up being as marked up I mean, jane, I'm only in chapter five and you could see all the is Tiffany Yates Martins, the intuitive editor. Her book is so color coded and it's funny because hers my post-it notes, are really the same color scheme as her cover, so it looks like it's all intentional. But so I have a lot of questions.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I would love to ask you you'd be willing to chat about I haven't heard you talk a lot and perhaps you have, and I just haven't heard it but how you got into the space. So I'm one. I'm curious. I know that you were an editor and you worked with a mid-sized publisher. You were a professor. Um was this? Did you study? Was your study in school? Was it writing, creative writing or?
Speaker 2:It was Okay, and so from there, you went out like I.
Speaker 1:Just I'd personally love to learn a little bit more about that, if you're open to sharing that.
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean the fact I got a writing degree and a master's in English there's. I don't think there's anything special or unusual about that story. I was like any other writing student. But maybe what set me down the path that I'm on now is I got really interested in doing publications work when I was in college. So I worked on the newspaper and the literary journal.
Speaker 2:I interned for a really small military publisher as well Not glamorous work, but it was just really gritty in the trenches, to use a military metaphor publishing work. So I ended up getting an internship while I was still in college at a book publishing company, which is where I spent most of my traditional publishing years. But frankly, I could have ended up in a lot of other places. I applied to countless internships and they were the first ones to say yes and to offer me money, which was really important. So I ended up working for that company once I graduated and that, just like it, really dropped me into the deep end of the business of publishing and I ended up moving around quite a bit in that company.
Speaker 2:I ended up with Writer's Digest. Most of the people at that time who were at Writer's Digest had about zero interest on the business side, but I enjoyed it and so that kind of became part of my specialty, along with digital media, self-publishing, and you know, whenever I would speak at conferences, it's where I felt most sure-footed. I didn't really want to talk about the craft and I wasn't writing fiction or poetry of my own anyway, even though I had done that in college and I just felt like who am I to tell you people how to write your book? I know what all the advice says, but I am not an authority and you probably shouldn't listen to me, so I really tried to stay away from giving advice on that front. But I had a lot to say about the business and about digital media.
Speaker 1:And, over all of these years, what has kept you interested and continuing to grow more fascinated and curious. And I'm putting words in your mouth, so I'm making an assumption there and correct me if I'm wrong. But as opposed to saying man, this is just, I don't want to be part of this space anymore Because it's changed so much.
Speaker 2:It has. I mean, I've always leaned more in an optimistic direction, uh-huh, and I also have a very pragmatic rational. I would say cool-headed, take on things that are happening. I think some of that's just my nature, and I also think there are so many bad messages about the environment and the changes, and by bad I mean they're misinformed, they're over the top, they're emotion driven, they're not looking at the bigger picture, the long term. I mean some of this, I don't know, feels like reflective of the time that we're living in more broadly.
Speaker 2:Agreed feels like reflective of the time that we're living in, more broadly Agreed, but I much prefer to like remain calm and help people understand their position and how to make progress given their strengths, what they want to accomplish. Like it's, it is never as bad as people say it is, and I think ever since I've been in the business, I mean I think this is particularly true of creative professions. Generally, everyone is celebrating how good it used to be and there's something a little tiresome about that.
Speaker 1:For me.
Speaker 2:I don't like to just have continual nostalgia for the way it used to be, and I think there are a lot of exciting opportunities that exist today that weren't available when I entered the business, and so that does create some confusion and anxiety because people are worried they might do the wrong thing or they don't know if it's going to work out or whatever. But I would much rather have today's industry than the 1995 industry.
Speaker 1:Well, and I've often said I've not, I've never been traditionally published. It's not for lack of trying. Early in my career, like back in the early 2000s is when I published my first book and I was of the generation, if you will, where with my query letter, we sent postcards that you know right, like do you remember this? Not to age, both of us, but where the agent would check yes, or like I'd like to see more or no, I'm not interested, and then I'd put little lines for them to give feedback, and then I wish I had kept them and you have a bit in. You know the business of being a writer, which I just every author I feel needs this book on their nightstand, like I, along with the intuitive editor. Those are the. If somebody said to me what are the two books? And also be listening to the shit no one tells you about writing the podcast, I mean, if you just have three resources, they're so helpful because you know I you say something about keeping like a file of all of your rejections, and another author I had spoken with quite a while ago but I just adore Emma Gray talked about the law of 100 rejections and how she was striving to get to 100.
Speaker 1:I wish I had kept those postcards, jane, because the number of some of them, the majority of them, just never came back right. You put your little stamp on it and it was lost. At the time, 29 cents, I don't know why. I remember that number. Some of them came back just with a big X on the back, some of them just said no, with a sharpie big N-O exclamation point, and it was just. You know, that was my first foray into the traditional world and there was another foray which I won't get into was my first foray into the traditional world and there was another foray which I won't get into.
Speaker 1:But yes, I am someone who celebrates the new opportunities because I think without them, a lot of people wouldn't be able to pursue the dream, the goal, the hobby. However you want to say it, right. But you said something that made me really recognize the value I have and have had for you over the years, which is you're not a pendulum that swings way left and way right. You haven't been that for as long as I've been listening to you and following you. You stay very it's a very calming, grounded feeling of okay, let's stay in the truth of what all this is as opposed to today we're selling this and tomorrow we're selling this, and SEO is dead and email is dead and platforms are dead, and I love that you have at the beginning of the book it's not a quote, but I'm quoting a couple of words. That says navigate the tension between art and business, and I think you do that better than perhaps anybody I've ever come across in the space.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's the best compliment I could hope for. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, because it's so important. You talk about the sort of marriage between creativity and business and how important it is for people going into this field to at least understand the business, to set their expectations and to not get taken advantage of Correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think very early in my career, especially when I was working as a traditional publishing editor and issuing those rejections, that I don't think I ever wrote a big N-O on anything, Thank you. But certainly that's like. That's how people felt, though on the inside, even if that's not how I expressed it, and I saw how people got bitter very quickly. And you know, for me on the other side of the desk I would, you know, I would keep saying in public and in private, like it's not personal, stop making it personal. But on some level it's unfair of me, when I don't have any stake in this, to say don't take it personally. I understand now, like having spent so many years at this, Writers are going to take it personally, but you have to move past it. You have to move past it and realize it is not a statement on the quality of your art. If you're going to succeed in the future on either the art or the business side, it doesn't mean anything and I try to convey that in the book.
Speaker 1:Well, I've often said if you're going to go into this field, please either have or start developing a thicker skin, which is so much easier said than done. There are so many things about being in this space that I feel like we learn about parts of ourselves that we didn't necessarily sign up for. Do you think that's different in this space than in other spaces?
Speaker 2:I think it's true of probably most creative professions, and I do think the people who tend to succeed are those who can, like, roll past, you know, all of the hurts and scrapes and bruises. I think it really beats people up and they just drop off because they can't, because there's no guarantee, right, like maybe if someone could tell you oh well, if you just keep falling down and accepting the scrapes and cuts and offenses, in 10 years you'll achieve what you want or what you're dreaming of. But there aren't any guarantees, and so people just self-select out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love how you're. So I don't know if the word is encouraging, validating all of the above, about having another job outside of being an author or writer, whether it's in the writing field or not, is so much more common. People think of it as well. I'm not making it yet, I've failed right, but it's more common than not, it's more common and it's certainly not a failure.
Speaker 2:And I think it helps bring self-awareness to the creative part of your life. When you're doing something that's not creative and if you are involved in something that's adjacent or tied into your creative practice, I think it. When you observe others or you're working with others, I think it again. It brings more self-awareness to things that, um, you might be doing or not doing, like both the good and the bad, you know. This is why it's often said one of the best ways to improve your own writing is to see a lot of bad writing, because it's easy to see it in someone else. And then you start to realize okay, now I understand why you shouldn't start a story with with a phone ringing, a phone waking someone up out of a deep sleep with a boring phone call With a boring phone call.
Speaker 1:Well, and how? So? Okay, this makes me think about the whole subjectivity of art, because it, I guess, taking aside the literary fiction, where people have studied the craft and really understand all of that and have worked on it day in and day out for years and years and years it's so important and I've heard you say this so many times that when you if and when, really it's when you are rejected for something, there are myriad reasons why that can happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you can't. There's no limit. It's like it's only limited by the number of people on the planet.
Speaker 1:Yes, and what somebody likes somebody else. Will you know what the New York Times anything on? At number one on the New York Times there's a group of people who think it's the worst thing they've ever read.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it actually can buoy the spirits to read reviews of things like the Great Gatsby. Or pick your favorite book, go read some of the reviews. I think it'll help. But I want to actually I want to go back to something you said earlier about people writing literary fiction, or people who might be getting degrees or they're studying the craft, and so here's, like the paradox that I've observed In too many creative writing programs I'm not going to say all, because that's unfair, but too many you're reading and critiquing and expected to pick up things by osmosis.
Speaker 2:There's not actually a whole lot of prescriptive information that's given or shared. There's really a hesitance for so many reasons, to tell people look, this is how you write a book, or this is how you structure a book, or this is what you need to know about character, motivation, all of the things that like when I worked at Writer's Digest, the sort of advice we would put in the magazine and in the books here's how to do it. Obviously, there's a point at which that advice becomes limiting, but I do feel like some writing programs aren't teaching the craft. They're just teaching you about art and they're pointing at it. Look at that art. And they're wanting you to develop your art with zero attention to market concerns or even talking about. Okay, what compromises might you make if this is the sort of success you want or if you want to be published in this way?
Speaker 1:Well, that's actually quite interesting because I don't have a degree in writing. My degree is in Japanese. For God's sake, it's not even writing adjacent. But I wanted to be a journalist for many years and it's curious to me how much of the instructional I guess just the instruction that's given is somehow influenced or informed by that instructor's own process and how they write and et cetera. It's interesting, I do. It's interesting. The more I talk with traditionally published authors, I'm intrigued by how much they do pay attention to what's happening in the market, right? So, like, what's the trend? And then, of course, once you know it's a trend, it's sometimes on its way out, right? And your ability to write a book now that probably won't come out for two to three years, where's the trend going to be then? A book now that probably won't come out for two to three years, where's the trend going to be then? So how do you guide people to marry those two things, right, what the business wants versus what someone wants to do and what they want to explore as a creative person?
Speaker 2:So there are a few levels or ways to think about this. Certainly, I talk a lot about trends in my work and I do it mainly because I think people need to know which way the wind is blowing, so that you can adjust course properly or you know if trying to publish this particular thing is likely to result in frustration or if you should go to a different type of publisher, or you realize an agent's not going to be likely for that sort of work. It just helps, you know, for all the reasons we talked about earlier, setting those expectations. So just having that kind of market savvy, can you avoid wasted time. The other piece of this is certainly, if you're, I think there are certain commercial genres that I mean they're going to be around forever. There's always going to be ghost stories, romances and detective stories. I can't imagine them going away. Pretty evergreen, exactly. So if you are a writer looking to make money, there are ways to play with those formulas, with those genres, in ways that I think are very sophisticated. And I think when you see some of the more literary authors who break out, the people who have the MFA backgrounds, they're often using genre tropes or genre formulas combined with. You know kind of this MFA sophistication. And then the other thing I would mention is this especially gets into like if you were thinking about oh, I really want to write something that would be read in book clubs, like upmarket fiction, book club fiction, the sort of thing Oprah would pick.
Speaker 2:This to me is just being involved in the world, like paying attention on some level to news culture, what people care about, what people are anxious about. I mean, if you're an engaged person in the world, your writing is probably going to reflect that. Sure. So I don't think that's, I think that's awareness of what's happening around you. I don't think it requires reading the news every day, but, like I'll never forget, it was Margaret Atwood when she described how she wrote the Handmaid's Tale.
Speaker 2:She I don't know if she still does this, but she was keeping a scrapbook. So when she saw news articles or things in the world that were really like oh, wow, that's kind of remarkable, she would cut them out and put them in a scrapbook and over time, you know, she was obviously like connecting things and melding some different ideas together from things that she was actually observing in the world and that brought us A Handmaid's Tale. So that's what I mean by that is you know, I don't like and I may say this in the book I don't like the idea of the writer saying oh, I have to go off into my isolated garret up on the mountain, closed off from the world, to produce my art. I don't, I think that's a very old fashioned idea of how this gets done, but people still like. Think about that. Oh, I don't want to. You know, I'm an introvert and I can't engage with anyone while I'm producing my art.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Or there's this thought and you do say something in the book about this. I'm 99% sure there's this thought that if I get away and I have complete solitude and I have eight hours a day, I'm going to get this done. But the reality is that most of the people who do get it done do it in five minute increments in between picking up kids and they're at soccer practice, they're making dinner, so it's almost this sort of weird, counterintuitive, paradoxical thing where it's almost like the less time you have. Yes, I don't know, that's certainly experiential, like it depends on everybody's experience.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, in my experience, it's the people who have absolute freedom who tend to get paralyzed. Yes, it's a lot of pressure, you know, and I think it's. There's a lot less pressure if you say I'm just going to take these five minutes or 15 minutes, and even if you have, you know, kids screaming around you or you're, you know, in a parking lot waiting for someone to, you know, come out from their appointment or whatever, having that bit of friction or pressure I think is actually very useful for the creative process.
Speaker 1:Well, I think I mean I get a lot of my material from stuff that's just happening around me, you know, I mean in all the years that I wrote, unfortunately for them. At this point they say so much about my kids. I mean I couldn't have made up some of the things that they were doing in Target and Aisle 7. Can I read a line from the book that I want to ask? So you say it's unlikely that every piece of writing you do or every opportunity you pursue will advance artistic, monetary and readership goals. Commonly, you can get two of the three, and it made me think about the adage you can have it quick, fast or cheap. Pick two right. So will you say more about that, about that? Is it that people and I use the word should very carefully but really contemplate their goals with?
Speaker 2:it. Yeah, yeah, a lot of this is about self-awareness, about why you're doing a particular project or piece of writing, but it's also in response to the question I often get about how do I balance the art and business. And it's like, first of all, I question the idea of balance. No matter the subject we're talking about, I don't know that that's the goal I have for anything in life. Now I'm not suggesting like stress and overwhelm and anxiety, but I just question what we mean when we say balance.
Speaker 2:So in response to that dilemma, I say well, you have to think about each project in terms of how it's meeting three goals that are, I think, usually of interest to writers.
Speaker 2:You have interest in producing art, fulfilling your creative goals or mission. You have interest in earning money At least, I think most people want to get paid for what they're doing on some level. But there's also the I think this is the factor that's often left out. There are certain things that you do that they might not earn you much money, they may have less to do with your artistic goals as well, but they're really good for your visibility or your platform building. So I always encourage people to think about that. I'm trying to protect people from the knee-jerk reaction of oh they wouldn't offer me any money so I'm not doing it. The whole writing for free, writing for exposure problem that people have, I mean, there is something of a problem, but I think it's overstated and I'm trying to help people understand that, yes, there actually is some money in exposure if it's the right opportunity, that's the big question.
Speaker 1:And there's value, even if the value isn't monetary, because it might become monetary to your point down the line, or sometimes it's just about. And I'm going to get to platform, because I usually have a word, if not five a year, that I think if I never hear this word again, I'll be so happy. And platform might be what it might be the 2025 word, what that? I feel that way after the end of this, oh God. But you know, you have this other point that I was really excited about, where you say being a published writer is not the incredible Holy Grail that people might think. You have to really want to do it to continue, and whatever self-doubt or anxieties you experience do not disappear once you publish. In fact, they tend to increase. And would you say more about that?
Speaker 2:So, as soon as someone gets a book published and I don't care how it got published or how much money you got paid does not matter the next thing you're going to look at is okay, how many reviews, how many sales Did the New York Times cover it? Did so-and-so cover it? What about these other books that came out at the same time? Did they get something I didn't get? What about the year-end lists? Was I nominated? Did I get on them? Am I getting awards?
Speaker 1:And it just goes on and on and on, and I think there's this misconception, there's so many misconceptions in this space and I think one of the biggest that I have heard and experienced time and time again is, once I get that first book out, I'll exhale Right, and it'll kind of be, I'll be able to coast from there, and I just think, oh God, no.
Speaker 2:No, no, I'm sorry, no.
Speaker 1:I wish, believe me, I wish that were true. But it's just again with expectation setting. I think if we can be like I wonder what nightmare is going to don my doorstep next week, right, then we can be optimistic about how am I going to deal with that Before I get to platform, because I'm going to put that one off as long as possible because I work so much in the self-publishing or the indie publishing. However one chooses to, whatever moniker one chooses to use, what are you seeing in that space that feels exciting or optimistic? And what are you seeing? Maybe that people's expectations aren't set quite right.
Speaker 2:So when I think of the self-publishing space, I'm primarily thinking about commercial fiction or genre fiction, because that's where it's easiest to gain traction for folks if they're career-minded and they really want to do this for a living. So the great things that I'm seeing in that area are traditional publishers are much more partner-oriented or collaboration-oriented than they ever have been in my career, meaning they will fish for the best or most successful authors who have already found their readerships and now they really, truly need a partner to take it to the next level. That's going to differ by author what that means, but often it involves print retail distribution, translations, subsidiary rights, etc. So an example of this right now is if you look at Sourcebooks, they have an imprint called Bloom. That's their business model partnering with really well-established indie authors. The indie author keeps their e-book and audio book rights in most cases, and then Bloom takes over the print distribution and it really truly is a collaboration.
Speaker 2:And I want to emphasize that because so many times, at least earlier in my career, you would see self-published authors picked up. You know it could be one book, it could be several, and the publisher would start making all sorts of decisions about that book without paying much attention to what that author thought Like, whether that was cover, design, pricing, like. At that point you know, if the author has had that much success, they probably know their readership better than the publisher on some level. And so I think Bloom Books is truly collaborative in the sense that the decisions they're making are in partnership. They're not overruling the author on anything. They're advising, they might be urging, but they don't say you have to do this or else, or no, sorry, your contract says we have final word. That does not exist with them, or so they say, and I believe them because their authors have been quite loyal to them. So that's like the good piece of this.
Speaker 2:I think the frustrating piece in the self-publishing indie market is just the immense competition, the fact that Amazon is so predominant, and if you don't like Amazon, I don't know that I could encourage trying self-publishing. I mean there might be some really fringe cases of people able to make it without Amazon involvement. But especially in genre fiction, you're probably putting your e-book into Kindle Unlimited, which means exclusivity on the ebook to Amazon, and that's really distasteful to some people. But what I see it, as you know, kind of I hesitate to say a requirement, but if you're trying to build a readership from scratch, it's really hard to avoid.
Speaker 1:Right? Well, and in the nonfiction space, do you feel to the degree that you're comfortable speaking to the nonfiction space? You know, in the last I would say five years, I feel like, is when we started to see this massive push about. If you're an and I'm using air quotes an expert in a certain area, the book is your new business card and so all you need to do is publish a book, whether traditionally or you know, but it's going to probably involve a big cost, at least from a marketing push standpoint, and that is your ticket in. And I think that's where I've had to do the most expectation setting. It's not with folks who are writing fiction, because I feel like there's an understanding there that and there's also an interest in the writing, whereas sometimes on the nonfiction side there are ghostwriters being hired and things. So it's not an interest in the craft, it's not an interest in being immersed in the literary community, it's the idea that this book is going to unlock something.
Speaker 2:Right. So I find it so challenging to talk about self-publishing nonfiction, not least because there's so many different categories we could discuss and I include poetry in this discussion as well. It's technically considered nonfiction in the book industry coding so like, for example, if you get into, let's say, the cooking area, food, anything related to that, I mean good luck getting an agent and a traditional publisher unless you're already a name of some kind. So where does that leave people with more modest platforms? So where does that leave people with more modest platforms who may have quality, whatever recipes, food, whatever that category calls for?
Speaker 2:You know, I recently profiled an author at my site who self-published his cookbooks using one of these really quick services. I'm not going to remember the name, but it's like I would not call them a publisher, right, I would call them a printer. They will. If you're on TikTok and you want someone to like help, you slap a book together to sell to your TikTok followers. This is the company you go to and they just print whatever you send them, which means if there are errors, there are errors.
Speaker 1:And they only sell if we're. If I think we might be talking about the same author, is it where they? They only print or they only sell through there? Yes, there's no white. Okay, correct.
Speaker 2:We're talking about. I mean, if you know the company name, say it. I don't think they would take offense.
Speaker 1:but no, and I can't remember it right now either. Is is it the author with the down?
Speaker 2:Yes, get yourself a plate. Yeah, matthew Bounds.
Speaker 1:Matthew Bounds and I had a conversation with Matthew and he was lovely and he was trying to figure out how, but he had amassed I mean, we're going to talk about platform a huge I couldn't believe the number of cookbooks that he was selling and so he needed wider distribution. And so he got that deal, but continue on with your point please.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he was able to demonstrate market demand. And at that point the publisher swoop in and say let us help you with that.
Speaker 1:Understandably.
Speaker 2:Right, right. So there are other people who they don't have that following, or it's a smaller following, and there's this question that comes into play. I think for these people should they do this with a company that can get them into what I would call traditional distribution outlets, where bookstores and libraries are going to feel super comfortable ordering that book, or they can get their book into the airport bookstore or whatever, wherever it is they think their book should go, and that costs a ton of money. Um, because we're talking about a print run, and then the marketing and publicity and then all of the other stuff you're going to have to pay that company for. So 20 000,000 and up 20,000 is minimum in my opinion. So if this company is worth its salt, or do you just want to cobble together the freelancers or experts, you need to get that book out and then market to your own audience and maybe to some select places where you feel like you're going to reach maybe a broader audience, like if it's a business book.
Speaker 2:This is going back many years, but there was a book called Traction and they had a point to make about how to get traction in the market with a product Surprise.
Speaker 2:So they used their own book marketing as a case study for how to gain traction, and they didn't use a company, they just did it on their own book, marketing as a case study for how to gain traction. And they didn't use a company, they just did it on their own and they had phenomenal success doing it. But they really understood who that book was for. They knew the podcasts to go to, the blogs, the thought leaders. They already had relationships with those people anyway, so they were already a known quantity in that little community they were part of and then they were able to kind of ascend the market. That way, I think, for people who don't have the relationships who you know are made, or they, you say the word community and you get a blank stare. I don't know that I would be spending tens and tens of thousands of dollars when you don't have something, some sort of foundation, to work with.
Speaker 1:Well, the idea, I think, sadly and unfortunately, and I do feel that way is that because the belief is that the, in this case, the hybrid publisher we can probably refer to them in that way is going to do the marketing and do the selling, and that is just in my experience, has never and I don't use that word lightly been the case. Yeah, you know, I'm curious. The wide distribution of what value are you seeing that having outside the traditional world for people, given that 60 to 80% of consumers I mean love them or hate them do buy their books online and of those, 50% are going to Amazon. So what should that allure still be there? Is it a vanity thing in your mind to say, oh, I'm in bookstores and then, of course, having to deal with returns, and these are things people don't know going into it, right.
Speaker 2:So my personal view is that it is vanity and I don't understand why this is sought after, given the statistics you just quoted, which are accurate, that the large majority of books are purchased online. So why is it so important to some of these authors to be in bookstores or to have some sort of cachet in that realm, especially when industry insiders that operate these bookstores or whatever, they can see you have hybrid published and you're paying all the bills, right? So that's my personal view, and I want to distinguish that from what I hear from people who are happy that they have spent this money. So I do talk to authors who are very happy with their hybrid publishing situation, who have paid to get this distribution. They've pulled out all the stops and when they look at the results, they're like I'm glad I did that. I don't dispute that. They're glad. I don't think they're lying to me. But if I were going to have a debate with them on stage, I think one of the questions I would have is how many sales would you have lost had you not had that distribution? Because I don't know if it would have been enough to make a difference.
Speaker 2:There is one person that I really respect and trust in this space. His name is Josh Bernoff. He was involved in a report recently a business ROI for authors where he kind of analyzed what's the profit from publishing a business book traditional, hybrid, self-published what money are people putting in, what money are they getting out and it kind of to me it looked like a wash and I think he would say that as well. But the people who here's the interesting thing the people who are putting a lot of money into like a hybrid scenario and paying for that distribution, they were also. They tended to be more motivated. They were making better choices in regards to the writing and the editing and the packaging of that book, and so they were putting more investment at every step along the way, which then, of course, no surprise gives that book better performance once it reaches the next.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Is that the same study that Naren Ariel from Amplify Publishing Group?
Speaker 2:Yes, Same one.
Speaker 1:So Naren was on a couple of weeks ago. We chatted on an episode a couple of weeks ago and I think when I had it was like $1 to $1.24 was the return. The return was about $1.24 for every dollar spent, and so agreed that it's a bit of a wash right, unless your volume is really high. So you've got to have a plan is kind of my point with people is that's my personal, and I'm saying that as someone who also has to have a plan and has seen what happens when I don't have a plan or when my plan is based on expectations that I shouldn't have had for one reason or another. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:So let's launch into my favorite topic, platform, and I just want you to take the wheel on this one, jane, because I think and I want your thoughts on this that platform the word platform beyond making me crazy is different. It's a different concept in the book industry than perhaps in other industries, like when we're talking about traffic and how much are you increasing? How much does your ad increase? Like that's not what we're talking about, about platform.
Speaker 2:So take it away. So I'll start by saying that when I revised the book so from the first edition to the second edition for the second edition I created a section devoted to platform. I hated that. I did it on some level, but I felt like it was necessary and I put it really up front. It's part two, yeah, short.
Speaker 2:So the reason I did it that way is because there is so much bad information and anxiety surrounding platform that I felt like I needed to like cut off at the pass all of the people who are reading the book and thinking, but what about platform? But what about platform? And carrying these really bad ideas about what it is through the book? I just wanted to like nip it in the bud. I'm also acknowledging, by putting it up front, that this is just one of the top of mind issues for every writer, whether I like it or not, even though I think it's overemphasized. So I think it gets overemphasized because agents and publishers talk about it a lot. People are getting rejected for lack of platform all the time, and you have the mainstream media doing these clickbaity articles about how only influencers and TikTok stars now get book deals, which is false.
Speaker 2:So what I want to say to folks whether you know, regardless of what you want out of your writing and publishing career.
Speaker 2:Rather than thinking about platform as this burdensome thing you have to do to satisfy the demands of authors and publishers because they said you need it, I want you to think about platform as something that gives your career independence, longevity, that makes marketing and promotion a much more natural effort, rather than oh my god, what am I going to do to market and promote my book?
Speaker 2:So I look at it as this very organic thing that's developed over a career that starts with your lived platform and that is like the places you went to school, the place that you live, the relationships that you have, the careers or the different jobs that you've held, the different organizations, associations, nonprofits, whatever, whatever you're involved in.
Speaker 2:That's often where these things start. And then, once you get involved in the writing and publishing community, if you're doing it in a way that is productive, you're not writing in the garret but you're out at events or conferences, at readings, at talks, you are on social media, communicating with other authors, with peers. You are becoming a literary citizen, in effect, and I talk in the book about literary citizenship, which is not marketing and promoting yourself, but focusing outward on the people who are going to be supporting your book when it comes out, because you've made this investment, you're making the investment in each other. So, yes, there is like an online media component to this. There's the social media piece websites, newsletters but I think people often forget the other side of it too the relationships, which is where it all begins.
Speaker 1:And I think you know, when you look at the influencers, I think that's part of the reason why someone can go from relative obscurity to a million and a half followers on a social media platform overnight is because they already had the platform. It's sort of like what comes first, the chicken or the egg. And you also see, I see plenty of authors and creatives on social media who have a low follower number, but they're doing fine, whatever fine is for them, right, they're living the life that they would like to live. And on the flip side, you see people who do have hundreds of thousands or more followers, who are maybe not talking about it but not really sure how they're going to pay the water bill that month. Because, right, it's like how many people are listening, how many people are engaged, how many people care?
Speaker 1:And I think, will you talk real quick about Patreon, because it's a question I get it's kind of like the newest thing, right? So for people where the pendulum swings constantly, it's like you need to have a new, which I am a firm believer in having an email list, but you need to have an email list and then you need to have a podcast, you need blah, blah, blah, and then Patreon comes on the scene and I'm asked often well, should I have that Because it's a way to monetize? And my first question is do you already even have an email list Because, or a large audience in some way, shape or form, who's going to come onto your Patreon? Is it Patreon that I'm even thinking? Substack, sorry, substack, that's what I'm thinking. Okay, but sometimes people use one to fund the other or to feed the other.
Speaker 1:Rather, but, Substack became like the new oh well, now I can get paid to have a newsletter. Yeah, but Substack became like the new oh well, now I can get paid to have a newsletter.
Speaker 2:And I don't think people realize that it's really hard to get people to give you $5. It is exceptionally challenging. Yes, I have a chart actually that I showed during some of my talks, that lists all of the ways that you can potentially earn money as a writer outside of book sales, and I start at the top with donations and affiliate marketing and then at the very bottom I have it coded by color from yellow, green, red or no green, yellow, red and at the bottom, red subscriptions, which is Substack. Usually when I have conversations with writers about this, I encourage them to start with the easier places to maybe get the $5. I think for some that's crowdfunding, perhaps, like if you have a very particular project that you would like people to support. I think you can do a reasonable crowdfunding campaign even if you have little to no platform, because most of the people who support those projects are people you already know. It's like your mom, even your ex. You have to seed it with some of these people who are willing to toss you money and then you kind of get the ball rolling from there.
Speaker 2:There are many writers who are able, even if they have a sub stack that they don't charge for. They have some sort of donation button or you know here, Venmo me five bucks if you enjoyed this post, or PayPal me or whatever, and you have the donation and the tipping now built into various parts of online media. So it's pretty easy to do and it costs you nothing. There's no, no one's expecting anything Like. There's no transaction going on. It's like okay, I want to support you. Sure, here's, here's some money this one time. But once you get into the subscription models, especially Substack, where there's a lot of competition now I think some people are operating this in a very transactional spirit, meaning, if you give me 60 bucks a year, I'm going to give you something that equates in your mind to $60 of value, like a magazine or newspaper subscription. But most sub stacks are not even worth a dollar a year. And that's not a criticism of the writers, it's just like no one has told them. Look, you can't write about what you did today.
Speaker 2:I was going to say what you had for lunch, yeah, and expect that to translate into a subscription model, right? The other thing that really kind of annoys me about this race to Substack and to charge for Substack is that the value of the email newsletter has always been and always will be the free newsletter that gives you a direct communication line to the people most interested in your work. So as soon as you start charging for that, you are really throwing a wrench in that and not getting that really key value. So if you are going to have something that's paid a sub stack or whatever please don't give up on having something free for your readers so you can let them know when you have a new book coming out without them having to pay to learn that you have a new book coming out.
Speaker 1:Well, and something I find interesting from a business model standpoint is having a something insert, something that's free for your readers, that's actually paid for by someone else. So having a free podcast where you have sponsors, having a sub stack where you have sponsors, so someone else is footing the bill in exchange for promoting their product to an audience that will readily enjoy their product. Or maybe they're not sponsoring it, maybe you're an affiliate of theirs, and so being able to sort of play in both swim in both swimming pools, if you will right without you also put yourself into a position with a paid product, I think, where it puts a lot of pressure on you as the creator to make people feel like what you're creating is worth their $5 or their $3 or whatever it may be.
Speaker 2:Did you happen to see the Wall Street Journal article this is maybe a month ago about Substack sponsorships? I didn't, so this was a real eye-opener, and I'm someone who does have sponsors for my free newsletter. So I do exactly what you just suggested. It's a stellar way to earn some money, and I'll add electric speed. That's electric speed, yeah, which I love. I think some people feel like they can't get a sponsor for their newsletter if they're not a known name or if they only have several 1000 subscribers or know there's a lot of um, underselling or I don't know. Modesty or whatever. They think you have to be some big brand to have an advertiser. It's not the case, and I would say if, if you are want to test the waters, you could start out with classifieds at the bottom, which are very inexpensive, or they should be inexpensive, like fifty dollars a pop maybe, and you tell your own readership I am going to start running classifieds. Do any of you want to advertise? Exactly, that's how it begins.
Speaker 2:That's exactly, but back to the Wall Street Journal piece. I mean, even I know the power of of sponsorship, money and email and this was just like wow. It was an article about how successful Substack people are getting like 10,000, 15,000 and up for sponsorship placements and I was just like I am not charging enough for my own when I saw some of these figures and it also made me wonder. As an aside, substack must be big mad that they're not getting a cut of any of that as far as I know, because they only make money on subscriptions.
Speaker 1:Right, right, I mean that payment isn't going because you control what's in your right, so it's just a third party, you know, whatever you choose. That's fascinating. And yet you know to marry that, by the way, with the idea that you're going after and I say that I'm using that term loosely but a customer to give you $5 versus these sponsors, some of whom are more than happy to offer four figures and up because, frankly, it's less expensive for them than putting an ad in a print magazine that is going to go into the recycle bin. It is not evergreen, um, but the cost of those is still the same, you know. So, okay, I truly could talk to you, for I will you come back. Can we do like a part two? Sure, I appreciate you so much. Thank you, my pleasure, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon. Thank you.
