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Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing.
Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
Ep 124: From Attorney to Romance Author with Audrey Ingram
Click Here to ask your book writing and publishing questions!
In this episode, author Audrey Ingram spills the tea on what inspired her newest novel, The Summer We Ran (coming June 3, 2025). Think: teenage love, political ambition, and a dual-timeline structure that spans 25 years and manages to hit you right in the gut and makes you think.
We also dig into how Audrey traded in her life as a practicing attorney for full-time writing and mom-life. The decision to pivot careers during a pandemic? Bold. Brave. And totally intentional. Plus, it’s given her a fresh lens on fulfillment, feminism, and what it really means to choose your own adventure.
INSIDE THE EPISODE:
🎙️ Why the publishing world is actually a surprisingly supportive crew—and how connecting with fellow writers can keep you sane
🎙️ How redefining feminism helped her embrace passion over pressure
🎙️ Her 12-week first draft practice, and why editing is where the magic happens
🎙️ The role of trusted ea
👉 CLICK HERE to get the first draft of your nonfiction or memoir written in 33 days!
...even if you don't have a cabin in the wilderness, 4 uninterrupted hours a day to write, or confidence that you're a "real" writer. No overwhelm, no confusion. Just simple, actionable steps.
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Write the Damn Book Already is a weekly podcast featuring interviews with authors as well as updates and insights on writing craft and the publishing industry.
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Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory, if you're anything like me. In short, I love books and I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most impactful ways we connect with one another. A few things I don't believe in Gimmicks, magic bullets and swoon-worthy results without context, as in be sure to reveal that a result took eight years or required a $30,000 investment in ads, because those details are just as important. What I believe in most as an author, the long game, is the shortcut For more book writing and publishing. Tips and solutions. Visit publishaprofitablebookcom or visit me over on Instagram at ElizabethLionsAuthor. Hi everybody, you know it's always nice when a book cover all by itself can transport me out of my current reality and into one that I desire. That's exactly what happened when I opened up my copy of the Summer we Ran by Audrey Ingram. I'm going to regale you with the jacket copy. Does your past define your destiny? Told through multiple perspectives rich with emotion and immersive dual timelines, the Summer we Ran weaves together a story of lost love, devastating secrets, shocking sabotage and the painstaking decision two people must make in order to fulfill the futures they each desire.
Speaker 1:In the summer of 1996, teenage Tess Murphy's mom gave her two rules to abide by keep quiet and stay out of trouble. Her mother landed a new job as a cook at an affluent Virginia estate and didn't want anything to risk the opportunity. Least of all her outspoken daughter. Want anything to risk the opportunity, least of all her outspoken daughter. What no one saw coming was Tess falling deeply in love with the boy next door, high society Grant Alexander. Over a few wondrous and heat-filled months, tess and Grant's love blooms so ferociously. It feels utterly impossible that anything can keep them apart until tragedy strikes and the teenagers find themselves pained by betrayal, with little hope to repair the damage that's been done. Now, two decades after their epic teenage romance abruptly ended in heartbreak, tess and Grant are both running for governor of Virginia, where secrets from that summer threatened to shatter their families, futures and the love they once shared.
Speaker 1:I don't know why when I first saw the title I was thinking it was the summer we ran, like we ran a marathon, and I was turned on by the cover and turned off by the title. But after talking to Audrey and also reading this back cover copy, I came to understand it's the summer we ran as in. Like for politics, audrey is also the author of A River Runs South and the Group Trip. She's a graduate of Middlebury College and Georgetown University Law Center and she practiced law in Washington DC for 15 years. I don't really think I need much more of an intro for this. She has so many great writing tips that I know you're going to love. As per usual, all of Audrey's information is in the episode notes. I'm just going to launch right into the conversation. This is your third book, right? This is my third novel. I'm putting it. The people who are listening can't see it, but if I do video clips they can. I'm so in love with this cover.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. You know, the setting is always really important for me in every book, and especially in this one, and so I had sent my publisher some images of the area, because this book is set in the Virginia countryside where I live, and when they sent me the first kind of cover draft I was like, almost had tears in my eyes. I was like this is so perfect. It really just you want to just dive into it. So, thank you, I love it too. I'm certainly partial, but I'm so glad you like it as well.
Speaker 1:No, I love it and great point because I think for me, the most important thing is that the author is in love with her own or his own cover. I think it's challenging or I've heard that it's challenging to promote a book with a cover that you don't like if you're the author. I don't know, has that ever happened with any of your books the two prior? It hasn't.
Speaker 2:I've been really lucky, but I have heard the same horror stories as you and the number of times authors are holding up the book next to their face and smiling and I can't imagine if I was doing that and internally cringing at the same time. I feel very fortunate. I have loved all of my covers. I will say I'm very partial to this one. It might be my very favorite, and so it's wonderful. I'm so excited to show it off.
Speaker 1:It's so and it's so bright it just makes me want to. It's funny because when I first saw it, there are the flowers at the bottom. The first thing I saw was raspberries. I don't know why. It probably was Freudian and I thought I this is so weird, but I thought I want to be in Napa drinking wine and eating raspberries. As I read this, and I don't drink wine and I don't go to Napa, so I'm not.
Speaker 2:It's giving you those summer vibes, which is exactly is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it totally is so, being three books in now. One thing that I'm enjoying asking people who have written books previously or been in this space for a long time, even if they haven't yet published, which you have is what's something that it's sort of like if you could pay it forward with not advice but a suggestion. What's something that you would say to maybe your younger self or to someone coming into the space for the first time I don't even know if it's fair to say to your younger self anymore, because so much has changed, but someone who's coming into the space for the first time and just feeling overwhelmed and terrified.
Speaker 2:Yeah, first I want to give you a hug because we all authors have felt overwhelmed and terrified. But I will also say that this is one of my favorite parts of this business is how collegial it really is, which is strange to say, because you're mostly sitting by yourself in front of your computer inventing these stories, but really at the end of the day you are working, hopefully hand in hand with your editor and then with the team at your publisher, and then reaching out to your author friends and sharing drafts with them and then cheering each other on. It really is that old adage of a rising tide lifts all boats, and that's so true in this industry. And I will say I think with my debut I was a little bit nervous about reaching out to other debut authors and I would just say don't be, you're all. Whether you got a six-figure deal or you're self-publishing, you're all starting off at the same point.
Speaker 2:Your self-publishing, you're all starting off at the same point. And really, you know I'm only three books in, but I've already seen none of that stuff really matters as far as the trajectory of your career. I've seen authors that had huge first deals that still haven't put out another book and I've seen authors that had teeny tiny deals that now are, you know, celebrity book club picks, and so really you're all starting out at the same point and forming those close relationships with other authors in your debut year is so rewarding and then also so critical. They are your colleagues and I would treat them as such, treat them with respect, but you also get to talk about books, which you all obviously all love.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I think it's interesting because the industry the book publishing industry sort of has a reputation for being very cutthroat, very competitive and, in some cases, very catty in its competitiveness. I think to your point, it's one of the most lovely. I've met some of the most lovely people. I have found other authors, fellow authors, to be so generous and helpful and encouraging and kind. So maybe it's just when you were first getting started remind me what year your debut came out. I was 2023, september of 2023. Okay, so when you, when that was, gosh, that's a, that's three books in two, all right, we got to talk about that, heading off with some raspberries and something. So when you were first getting started and you felt like, oh my gosh, I don't want to. It feels uncomfortable to reach out to people, et cetera, how quickly did you realize or did you have any experiences that made you say otherwise? You know that was it always so? Welcoming is kind of what I'm asking.
Speaker 2:It was, and I think that was all in my head. I think what happened was I had a couple of authors who have become good friends reach out and say we've written similar books, we're launching around the same time, do you want to do an event together? And I thought, oh, how fun, cause I was so nervous about reaching out to bookstores to do events and you're helping me and you really do benefit from that shared experience. And then you find you find the authors who write similar books to you and then you start exchanging drafts or brainstorming plot ideas and it really does become this really collaborative environment that I was scared to enter into. And I think part of that is just imposter syndrome. Like, am I a real author, am I not? You're probably a real author, but I'm not. And I had to get over that. And I was lucky that I had some people who were just braver than me and reached out and then that gave me the bravery to reach out to other people as well.
Speaker 1:I do find that there's less of a competitive it's me or you and more of a it could be me and you, like. You know it's not this sense of they're going to buy your. If they buy your book, they're not going to buy my book. It's kind of you're going to enjoy both of these books, so just buy them both together. And I love that because I don't think we find that in a lot of other. You know, not professional spaces, but where people are trying to sell something.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think that's the wonderful thing about the reading community is, once they find one author they enjoy, they want to hear who else do you enjoy, whose books do you find similar to, and then I want to read them. So it really is. You know, I don't. I don't find that if somebody picks another author, they're picking their book over mine. It is there's. We are such we are at a fortunate time as readers that there is an abundance of amazing literature coming out. Every time I step foot into a bookstore I think how lucky am I that my book is one of all of these.
Speaker 1:How lucky am I that a reader even found it. Yeah, it's unbelievable. Yeah, I'm like protect the checking account. That's what I say when I walk into the bookstore, because it's bad. I mean, there's unbelievable. Yeah, I'm like protect the checking account. That's what I say when I walk into the bookstore, because it's bad. I mean, there's just it supports the libraries.
Speaker 1:How oh libraries Sing it? Yes, I just got an email the other day that my local library now has an app and I thought, well, I just assumed all libraries had an app, but apparently not my mind and I got so excited.
Speaker 2:It's wonderful Like yay for you.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'd love to talk about your writing process, since you've done so many in a short period of time and you said something. I wrote it down venting the stories which I haven't heard before. Tell me about your process, because you're a practicing. Are you still a practicing?
Speaker 2:attorney. I am not. So my journey was I was a practicing attorney at a law practice in Washington DC and then, and for a while, I had been feeling, you know, a little bit burned out. I had three young children. I was a partner at a law firm. It was, it was just a lot, and then the pandemic hit and it became a whole lot like for a lot of families who were trying to figure this all out. So my firm let me take a leave of absence and I was used to waking up very early in the morning to commute into the city I live in Virginia and I just used that time to start writing. And so it was. I was a pandemic career switcher who turned a stay-at-home mom and then wrote a book, and so it's really been just a dream for me to be able to kind of make that switch. So I am not practicing now. Now I am just being a mom and being a writer, which is a joy to say.
Speaker 1:Right, I think that's what so many people aspire to and get there, if and when they get there, because everyone has a different circumstance, and I, you know, I was talking to Jane Friedman a couple of weeks ago, who's just so delightful and so knowledgeable and what she was saying so helpful for writers.
Speaker 2:I mean so generous with her knowledge. It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1:It's really incredible and she made a really great and it was an obvious point, but I don't think it's something that people talk about enough, which is that the vast majority of writers have a secondary source of income, whether it's a partner or a large savings account or some other work that they do, whether it's in the writing realm or not. I mean, sometimes people go out and they do something during the day that has nothing to do with writing and it's not a mark of and I'm putting the air quotes failure or I'm not really a writer if you aren't writing full time. And yet for people who can, the people who I've talked to, who are able to do that for whatever variety of reasons, are so grateful. Like they recognize and I can see that in your face like that you recognize that gift. Would it be fair to say a gift?
Speaker 2:Oh, a thousand percent a gift. And I think you know there are writers I admire so much. Liz Moore comes to the forefront of my mind. She just wrote God of the Woods and she said you know I, she teaches as well. And she says I tell my students I write and I have another job and you will as well, most likely.
Speaker 2:And I think it is this kind of misconception in the industry that almost everyone gets a book deal and then that becomes their full time income and it's not the case by a stretch. I am very fortunate the way things have fallen into place for me and it does. It feels a thousand percent like a gift every day that I get to have this pursuit that is so fulfilling for me and also have the time with my family, which was something I felt a lot of guilt about for a long time, and I even felt a lot of guilt about leaving behind my legal career, and what did that mean as an example for my daughter, for other women, and I had to let go of that and really enjoy this moment of my life and the fulfillment it's bringing me personally.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. What I mean. Can you say a little bit more about that? Because I would innately I don't know if innately is the right word, but my initial thought would be oh, this is so empowering. I too have daughters. It'd be so empowering for my daughters to say I'm leaving this and I'm pursuing this. I'm not settling, I'm pursuing this new love. It's not necessarily a replacement, do you think? Did the financial realm of that come in a little bit where?
Speaker 2:I think it's so interesting that you frame it that way about how you would share that story with your daughters. I think for me I had gone to law school and had pursued a legal career and I just felt like this identity of being a career woman was so personal to me and I was in a position where I was mentoring a lot of junior female associates and that I thought, was, you know, just so important. And I thought what kind of example am I showing to them if I say I don't feel like I'm getting enough time with my kids? I want to be home with my children more? Is that setting us back in feminism?
Speaker 2:And I think it took a really important conversation I had with my mother where she said if your daughter was coming to you and saying there's this thing I love, that I want to do, but I'm not going to do it because I think society expects me to do something else, would you tell her that's feminism? Would you tell her that's the right decision? And it totally shifted my framing that you know, feminism is the choice. And if I was staying in something because I felt it was an obligation and an expectation, I wasn't making that choice. And what kind of example do I really want to provide for my daughter?
Speaker 2:And making that leap that felt at the time. You know, a working parent with three kids like this is so irresponsible. But for our family we made it work and it has a thousand percent been the right choice. And I think you know my husband, my children, all of us really feel like it's just improved all of our lives and I'm so grateful for it. But it was a very scary thing and a thing I felt a lot of guilt about. But I think all big decisions in life can feel like that.
Speaker 1:And I hear that word a lot irresponsible. I also heard it from myself for a long time. It would be irresponsible to do this. I have five kids, so I have all these kids to manage, or whatever. It would be irresponsible. My hat is off to you.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't. I've lost my mind quite some time ago. They're all getting older. Now the youngest is 17. So, god willing, they all are starting to do their own thing here. Does some, do some of these themes make their way into? I know the summer we ran has a lot of sort of co-mingling, interconnected themes. There's a lot going on. There's multiple point of view this is what's the word I want to use Complicated right, it is complicated, and I can't wait to see how you navigate all this. Was that? Do the themes work their way in in that way, like the women's, and what choices are we making? And yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And so the summer we ran is about first loves turned political rivals and it is told in two timelines the summer they fall in love as teenagers and then, 25 years later, when they are both running to become governor of Virginia and so on face value it is a very emotional love story and I think all of those complicated relationships so between the people we love, whether it's a parent and child, whether it's a spouse, whether it's a lost love, those are the relationships that I enjoy reading and I also clearly enjoy writing about.
Speaker 2:And I think, although there is no relationship in my life, that is exactly like the stories I write. I'm constantly pulling from those feelings of what does it mean to be a career woman today? And conversations I've had with former colleagues about the pressure they feel to have children or not have children, to even justify those explanations, those questions. I think being a woman in today's society is a very complicated assignment and I love exploring that in all capacities, the relationships we have and also the relationships with ourself and how we view ourselves, how kind we are to ourselves and how hard we are on ourselves, and those are certainly themes that come out in this novel.
Speaker 1:Do you, when you're writing, sometimes have to not take a break from the writing, necessarily, but do you ever stop and go like, what do I think about that, you know, and so that's what kind of going back to when you said venting onto the page, which can mean a variety of different things, but do you sometimes find that you use your writing to write your way into your understanding of yourself or a better understanding of maybe someone else in your life who's gone through something that's influenced or inspired your writing?
Speaker 2:A thousand percent. There are days when I finish writing and I think, wow, that was a therapy session because I have been a lifelong journaler. So I think I process my life and my emotions through writing and I will sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously, be in a character and be processing these things that have happened to me or impacted me or I have had questions about in other people's lives, and I will write through it and really come out of the other side thinking I didn't expect that and I think that's fun about writing is you surprise yourself sometimes. But boy, did I learn something through that process.
Speaker 1:I find that part fascinating and I don't know what other word to use besides that. I think you nailed it when you said wow, that was a therapy session. I think for some people it stops them Because, especially if they're working on their first book, they that's when the imposter syndrome really comes in, because they think, oh my God, I don't know these characters, I don't know this story. I think for pantsers it's easier than for plotters, because pantsers expect this is what I'm here, I'm kind of a plantser, but when you're, you know, when you're a pantser, you, it's like you wake up every day and go, well, it's going to happen today. But when you're a plotter and you've lined it all out and then something shows up that's unexpected, I hear that people say, oh, I started to question whether I really knew where the story was going and then I got stuck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that to me is one of the hardest parts of my transition from my legal career to my writing career are the inherent inefficiencies. And it used to drive me crazy, I would say, because I was someone. When you're a lawyer, you have to account for six minute increments of your day and write them down, and there are days when I write and I think the only thing I got out of this writing session is one sentence that I like, but at the end of the day, that is one sentence forward, and even if it was deleting, that is still progress. And so I've had to, in my mind, reframe what is efficiency, because in a creative process it is not linear linear, and I have now gotten joy in that that I can play and have fun and it does not have to be a certain number of words ticked off every day in order to have been an efficient writing day.
Speaker 1:Do you write every day?
Speaker 2:It depends. When I am doing a first draft, I find that I have to be in the story every day or I lose that momentum. But now with book three there is a juggling act a little bit. You're doing different things at different times, so I may not be in my current drafting story every day, Unfortunately. I would love to be the writing days in sweatpants, messy hair, no makeup. Those are my very favorite days, but they aren't every day, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:Are you someone who rushes to the end of a first draft? Is that meaning? Is your goal to just get the damn thing on the page and then start fixing it, or are you a more thoughtful? What's your and that may change. I mean, it can change right From book to book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it can certainly change For me, at least in these three books I have been. Once I start writing the draft, I'm pretty dedicated and consistent and I try to finish it in 12 weeks. So I try to finish our first draft in 12 weeks. That's the time that really works for me of putting down those words every day. That's the time that really works for me of, you know, putting down those words every day.
Speaker 2:But the part I really enjoy and where I think my books become real books is the editing process, and that, to me, is fun, because you're pulling things apart, you're putting things back together, You're really trying to experience it as a reader would and thinking through is the pacing right in this? Is this a choice the character would really make? That's what I think is the difference. When I was first starting out with my debut, I thought, oh, getting the first draft out, that's the hardest part, right Spoiler? It's not, at least not for me. The real work is in the editing and the drafts, and for all of my books they've gone through several drafts with just me before they go off to my actual editor.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I was going to ask. Do you then, do you move, do you do any kind of beta process with people, or do you have a critique partner before it goes to your editor? What's your process for that now?
Speaker 2:So I have for every book. I have three readers that I send drafts to. The first one is always my mom, who is a voracious reader, and she will say this is so great, I love it, Even when it's a trash draft.
Speaker 1:So she's your alpha reader, she's the she is my alpha reader.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you. But I think I always tell writers it's so important to have that person and and it's not always like it may not be your mom, it may be someone that you don't really know that well, that can just be your cheerleader but you're like this is awesome, Even though it's really not, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I always send it to her and and it's not a useless process because she will tell me the things that are really working and so I can really lean into those. She will say, oh, this moment was great. And I'll think, oh well, let me see if I can enhance that or pull more of those things. So that's always really helpful.
Speaker 2:My sister is my second reader and she is just the most emotionally intelligent person I've ever met and she can tell me this does not make sense, a person wouldn't do this, or why. Why she really? She helps me build my characters in a way I can't see through just my lens, and so that is so important. And then the third person is a good friend who reads more books than I think is humanly possible and she just really has her finger on the market and what people are doing and she can say I felt like this was a plot hole or I felt like this was merging genres too much, or she gives me some real feedback, and those are always the first three people that read it, and then I usually will go through a couple more drafts after that.
Speaker 1:But are they doing it at the same time?
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. Yeah, I said it at the same time. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:I just think it's. You know, so often when, especially when people are working on their first books, they think that the, like you said, the writing is the hard part, and then the editing is going to take five minutes. Right, someone's just gonna do some copy edits and move something, but it really is at. To me anyway, it's at least 50 of the process yeah, sometimes it's more like 70 yeah, I think you're exactly right.
Speaker 2:which is hard and look, I don't think new novelists need to know that like you. Just it's like how do you eat an elephant one bite a time? So just take your one bite and do that, and then you can think about the next things.
Speaker 1:And I think that adage, you know, journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. You know, eat an elephant one bite at a time. Those things hold true and are true and are used because they make perfect sense. I mean it's, you know, it's like a little kid trying to eat broccoli, just one bite at a time. Just the collaborative part of it and not and seeing what you didn't see, where your blind spots were. I think it's what makes us better writers. Do you go back and do you? I want to say this in a way that doesn't lead you to the. How do you feel when you start a book after a book has released? Do you feel excited? I don't want to lead you anymore. How do you feel?
Speaker 2:So I usually try to start working on a book before the next one is released, so that I am in it and I have another kind of creative outlet to focus my attention. I think the risk is and this is going to be a wildly unpopular opinion among other authors, I'm sure, but I read reviews and I'm talking about reader reviews Like I read Goodreads reviews. I make sure I'm in the right headspace to do it. But for me, what I enjoy about being a writer is there is this potential to grow throughout my entire career. I think I can consistently, hopefully, get better and better. I hope my next book is better than the last always, and so I may not always agree with all the feedback, but I can appreciate readers' reactions and feedback and I think it's an important part of my growth process. I think the risk is that those voices get in my head in the next draft and I try to create.
Speaker 2:I was conflating craft and I kind of like it, but I kind of like it, but whatever the word, is A novel that is a deliverable that someone has asked for or expected, whereas I really need to think about what's the story. I want to write, I can write and capable of writing, and what is this journey for these characters? And so I try to separate those voices in my head. It's not always easy, but I do think starting the project before the book launches has always been really important to me.
Speaker 1:You said something about letting it inform the process and what book do you want to write? And that's interesting, because if we listen to, if fiction writers listen to, everybody's feedback on what they should do or shouldn't do, I don't think they'd ever get another book written, right, because it's so subjective. When you even said I want my next book to be better, right, I want it to grow. There are plenty of authors who have written I don't know, let's call it 10 books, and by the 10th book, the industry people are like this is the worst thing she's ever written. And that's not, that's just, it's art, it's subjective. So if you ask readers well, which of this author's 10 books is your favorite, you're going to get a different answer. And, by the same token, I've long believed that if you put a manuscript, a well-developed manuscript, in front of 10 of the air quote best editors in the world, they're going to come back with different feedback. And none of it is inherently wrong or right.
Speaker 2:It's just how they feel the story could better be enhanced, yeah, and I think it's part of being now being on my third book I can. There is feedback that resonates with me and then there's feedback that I can not dismiss but say that's not for me, that's a more of a personal choice, and I understand that, whereas with my first book I couldn't discern those two. I just thought all feedback I needed to change and incorporate, and so it's nice to be at this place and I think that just comes with experience and knowing your writing style, your craft, where you are in the process, and it will come. It will come for everyone, it will come.
Speaker 1:So you said you're taking a nap now, but also I would assume you're working on the next book at the same time. I am yeah.
Speaker 2:It's early stages, but I am working on another love story. I always hesitate a little bit to call my books romances. There is always a central love story, but there's always an emotional journey that's going alongside it. This one is a little bit more leaning into a mystery as well that the characters are facing, and it's set both in the deep woods of West Virginia and then in the marbled hallways of Washington DC. And it's a lot of fun and I'm really enjoying it.
Speaker 1:And it's a good creative outlet as I'm getting ready to publish this book so. I it's so. Do you purposely think how can I challenge myself with the next book? Do you? Do you purposely choose something that at one point, or even maybe at that point, feels hard? I?
Speaker 2:do so. Okay. My first book was written in the third person, a single point of view, a single timeline. My second book was written in the third person a single point of view, a single timeline. My second book was written in the third person a single point of view, but dual timelines. And then this book was a very intentional choice of writing in the first person, which once you've read the book will be clear. But it was written in the first person, from dual point of views and dual timelines. So it was. It was with each step. I could not this book the Summer we Ran. I could not have written that as my debut. I wasn't ready as a writer to be there, and so I'm so happy I had the other two and I think those were the best books I could have written at that time in my career, and that's always my goal as I'm progressing along.
Speaker 1:Do you study when you say, okay, I want to try to do it this new way? What is your method of learning that? Is it just doing, or are you reading other authors who have done something similar? Are you reading craft books on that particular approach?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always say I didn't get my MFA from a university. I got my MFA from the Loudoun County Public Library. I like hit my they walk in and they laugh at me because I hit my like limit of how many books I can check out and I did so when I was writing. The summer we ran I checked out a stack of books that were written in first person and I wanted to see like what worked for me first person present, first person past. Well, you know, I think, because I am a reader. First, I think a lot about the reading experience. You know, how is the pacing working? Is anyone going to be interested in flipping the page? Are they going to want to throw it across and be bored at this point? And so I'm always studying that as I am reading and I'm thinking you know, why am I not connecting right now? Is it a character issue? Is it a plot issue? And I'm studying that. And then there are these great moments when I'm just immersed in a story and I'm not thinking about it at all from a writer's perspective. I'm not thinking about it at all from a writer's perspective. And then those are the books that I flip back to the first page and I start marking up and thinking, okay, this is how they did this, this is how they achieved it.
Speaker 2:So for me, reading is the best thing I can do to improve my craft. It is my number one tool as a writer is reading books, and reading very widely. I read, you know. I like to read fantasy because the world building is so amazing and for me setting is critical in my novels. So all of my novels are set in the real world. But I think the world building and fantasy is so great and so I want to use those tools and setting. I want to read above my pay grade. I want to read great literary fiction to kind of see how are they crafting words and how are they, you know what can? I kind of try to suck out of their powers into my own. And then I want to read, you know thrillers, to see you know amazing plotting. So I really try to read across all genres, even though I primarily write emotional romance books.
Speaker 1:You just said something that made me think, and for anyone who's listening, who's writing any genre fiction, nonfiction, memoir and is feeling stuck, you just kind of gave what I think is a great tool that I'd never thought about, which is, if you're stuck on your own book, is it possible that I'm thinking about myself here? I'm not connected enough to my characters and therefore my reader isn't going to be connected enough. Right, Like if you're, if you're truly connected to the story that you're writing, you'd want to go back into it as much as I want to turn on the Real Housewives and see what's happening with Dorit and Kyle. Right, Not to out my favorite franchise, but right it's. If you're not into the character and there are some of the Real Housewives cities I'm not into, I'm not into it, and I'm not into it because I'm not into the character. So that's a very wieldy, unwieldy analogy. It made me think about that, though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think sometimes I will say another approach that I've taken that I don't necessarily think is the most popular, but when I'm feeling stuck at a point in the story there is usually some scene I'm thinking about that. I'm just not there yet and I will say I'm just going to go ahead and write that scene. I'm going to write the one that I can't get out of my head, even though it's not the next thing that happens in the story, and sometimes that helps me find the path there. There are times that I don't write linear. I will write things ahead of time. I might write the ending. I know where it's going to go and I'm not quite sure what's going to get there, and it will help me then backtrack into it.
Speaker 1:I think that approach is much more common than people think. Oh good, yeah, I've heard it many times, which doesn't mean it's the best or right or any of those things. I've heard it many times I'll write the scene that is just there or that I'm feeling called to write, even if it make, even if it I have no clue yet how it fits into the overall thing. And then it's just how do I get there? And even maybe you don't get there, I mean, dare I say it, maybe that is a scene from another book down the road and it ends up getting pulled, but something is compelling you and intriguing you about writing it, so write it. Yeah, my favorite Well, I won't say it's my favorite part, but I get excited about.
Speaker 1:To ask every time is what are you reading now? Because this is how I just personally discover so many great new books that sometimes I put my tail between my legs because people are like what do you mean? You haven't heard of him or her. And I'm like the one you mentioned earlier Liz Moody, god of the Woods, liz Moore yeah, it's phenomenal, I had not. I'm trying to remember who recommended that. It was a couple episodes ago and I can't remember right now, but I went and looked at it and fell completely in love with the cover. So, okay, that's a that's a recommend yeah, that's a definite recommend.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's been just a banner year for reading for me so far. Um, I read Broken Country by Claire Leslie Hall and that was so beautiful. It's a love story with a mystery set in the English countryside. It was wonderful. I also read Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey. She is one of my all-time favorite authors. Her book Once there Were Wolves came out a few years back and I just it's one I still think about. But Wild Dark Shore, I think, is even better. It is just really a masterpiece. And then I, since you brought up the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, I'm gonna have to like swing away from my literary world and say a beautifully written but amazingly fun, wonderful, heartwarming romance is Courtroom Drama, nealey to body, and so it's like jury duty meets real housewives and you will just have the best time, okay.
Speaker 1:So Nealey is a pretty good friend of mine. Yeah, how did you meet?
Speaker 2:Nealey. So Nealey and I debuted the same year and it was funny we met because she said I'm working on a new project and I need a beta reader who has some legal experience but also who would be interested in the housewives. And I read, I read that and I thought is she describing me?
Speaker 1:I mean, this is a crazy fun full circle moment because Neely so Neely was just on two weeks ago to talk about courtroom drama. It hasn't aired yet as of today, may 1st, but she and I met a couple of years ago, right before Love Buzz came out. She reached out over Instagram or some such thing because she lives in Phoenix as well. I'm in Phoenix and we met and the rest is history. And it's funny.
Speaker 1:I almost needed to call this, write the damn book already most of the time with Neely, because I always talk about Neely. Her name comes up in almost every episode in some way, shape or form, and at the beginning it was just funny and then it started to get a little bit. I was like, at least she knows I'm not stalking her, but I just think she's remarkable and she is my critique partner for the novel that I'm working on and she's like Elizabeth. Why? Why is this? She's such a great critique partner because she doesn't hold anything back. I just love her. So I'm so glad you mentioned that book, because I do not have my copy yet, nealey, if you're listening, and I can't wait to read courtroom drama. I read the beginning of it because she sent it. I can't remember why she sent it over, but she sent it over for something and I fell completely in love with the characters when they're waiting to go into the courtroom at the very beginning.
Speaker 2:Damon, you're going to love it. She's a beautiful writer, smart woman. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 1:And she's a wonderful human. She's just fun and what you see is what you get, and I value that so much in people. So, oh, I'm so excited. You mentioned that. Yay, well, thank you. I cannot wait to what? Is this out yet? It's not out yet. It's not Summer. We Ran is out June 3rd. June 3rd that's my sister's birthday, so easy to remember. I cannot. It's a fun day all around then. It's a fun day all around. I cannot wait. So many congratulations. I'd love to chat again when the next one comes out or before.
Speaker 2:I would love it as well. This has been so much fun. It's been so much fun. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.
