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Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing. Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
Ep 122: From Nanny Diaries to The Best We Could Hope For, A Conversation with Nicola Kraus
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What happens when your first novel becomes a global sensation, and your next one takes nearly a decade?
In this episode, bestselling author Nicola Kraus (of The Nanny Diaries fame) gets delightfully honest about what it really takes to write, edit, and publish a book in today’s ever-shifting landscape. From the high highs to the humbling in-betweens, she shares what she’s learned about trusting your process (even when it’s slooooow), navigating a traditional publishing world that’s barely recognizable, and why writing in the present tense might just save your story.
Inside the episode:
- Why her latest novel took nearly a decade to write and release
- How editing is actually where the magic happens (even if it feels like a root canal)
- The sneaky power of tense, and why it matters more than you think
- What authors really need to know about publishing today (spoiler: it’s not just “write the book”)
- The simple truth about how readers find books they love
If you enjoy this episode, please follow or subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone you know who has a great story but isn't sure what to do next.
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Write the Damn Book Already is a weekly podcast featuring interviews with authors as well as updates and insights on writing craft and the publishing industry.
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Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory, if you're anything like me. In short, I love books and I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most impactful ways we connect with one another. A few things I don't believe in Gimmicks, magic bullets and swoon-worthy results without context, as in be sure to reveal that a result took eight years or required a $30,000 investment in ads, because those details are just as important. What I believe in most as an author, the long game is the shortcut For more book writing and publishing. Tips and solutions. Visit publishaprofitablebookcom or visit me over on Instagram at Elizabeth Lyons. Author. Hi everybody, all right.
Speaker 1:This week we are talking to the fabulous Nicola Krauss. I was so excited about this one for many reasons, the first being that Nicola is the co-author, with her dear friend Emma McLaughlin, of the Nanny Diaries, which you may remember. And now, when I first remembered this, or was told this, I thought oh yeah, that was back when I was in college or high school or something. I give myself too much credit sometimes for being a lot younger than I actually am and in fact, the Nanny Diaries came out when I was a new mom a young mom, I should say of a two-year-old and, I think, like almost pretty much newborn twins, and what I remember about the Nanny Diaries is that I was obsessed with it. I was completely obsessed with the cover. I was obsessed. I couldn't put it down. I think I probably failed as a parent for a few hours because it was so good and I just remember it. It had such an effect on me that I remembered it. All these years later, no-transcript tells me it took them six months to write a book, as I am when they tell me it took them 10 years, because either is an option, either is possible, and both books got written. So your process is your process is your process, and sometimes we get delayed and that's okay, and sometimes we are able to write quickly and then we edit for nine years. So it's important to not make assumptions about what a air quote real writer or an air quote good writer, what their process actually is.
Speaker 1:I talked in this. Well, we talked about a lot of things, including baby goats, miniature donkeys, and I mentioned this great farm Knuckle Bump Farms that I'm obsessed with on Instagram. I'll put their handle down in the episode notes and I couldn't remember at the time the name of the darling girl who's one of the owners of this farm. Her name is Taylor Blake and if you are familiar at all with Emanuel Todd Lopez, which is her emu, which is like the claim to fame of the farm, she had, or has, two emus, ellen and Emmanuel, who don't get along with one another, and Emmanuel Todd Lopez just steals the show almost quite literally because he does not like it when Taylor is filming constantly. It's one of the. If you need joy in your day, just check out Knuckle Bump Farms and also consider making a donation to their foundation, because they're doing she and her fiance are just doing absolutely great things for these animals. They're so much fun and, beyond that, they provide such great entertainment.
Speaker 1:I feel like there's a book there and if not, I need to find another reason why Taylor could come on the show to talk about a story. Right, a man, maybe a manual, like. I feel like there's a children's book about Emanuel Todd Lopez. It's just a thought I had. As usual, I have all of Nicola's information in the episode notes.
Speaker 1:Nicola is also a writing coach and I'm giving her that term. She is a writer guide, if you will, through her company, the Finished Thought, and she works with traditional and indie authors alike to help them get the words out on the page, get everything written, get their proposal finished and truly understand the industry. She really is someone who helps hold the author's hand, because we all need that from time to time as they're going through the writing, editing, publishing and marketing processes, and she's got some great, great advice and perspectives on the writing, editing and marketing processes, so let us get to all of it. So I open up Instagram, which I'm not supposed to do first thing in the morning, but I did anyway and the first thing I see is you, and and. So I didn't look at the date, but I thought I wonder if Nicola recorded this this morning and she's going to be wearing the same thing.
Speaker 2:Monday morning clean hair. Let's just like get all the good things done. I'm so impressed with you.
Speaker 1:I'm so impressed with you because Monday morning usually I look like I live in a box somewhere and I also you made me panic a little bit when I saw the reel because you said, well, a couple of things. Number one you said Adrian Brody. I thought you said Adam Brody. Oh no, okay, because no. I thought my heart can only take so much right. And if we have to cancel Adam Brody. I can't go on.
Speaker 2:No, we can't lose him.
Speaker 1:We cannot lose him, like if he hears this Adam, this is a plea from Nicola and myself Just stay on the right side, stay lovely, lovely. But now was that the SAG awards? No, that was the Oscars last night. Okay See, I'm so not like. I just don't want to turn on the television unless it's nobody wants this on Netflix. Cue Adam Brody. That's the only thing that's keeping me going. That and reruns of what's the New Girl. Do you watch? Did you ever watch?
Speaker 2:New Girl. Oh, I love New Girl, yes, so funny so great.
Speaker 1:I have so many questions for you.
Speaker 2:I've been listening to your podcast and there are so many episodes that I've wanted to comment on. I can talk about publishing, I can talk about writing. I can talk about hybrids.
Speaker 1:We can talk about all the things right. So the first thing is all right. So we are going to get to the Best that we Could Hope For, which is a rather apt title right now, I might add. And I want to ask you I've got a million questions about that. First thing I want to say is when I saw the Nanny Diaries part? So I read a lot of books, you read a lot of books. We all are immersed in this world and I just I love books and I'd read them even if I weren't immersed in this world. It's why I'm immersed in this world.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I read a book, especially if it was, you know, nanny Diaries came out in 03, right, 02. 02. Okay, this is making more sense. And I know I read it and I know I liked I'm speaking of any book. I know I read it and I know I liked it.
Speaker 1:But I can't, I don't have like a visceral reaction to what it was the Nanny Diaries. I had a visceral reaction. So, first of all, the cover, I mean. But I thought, okay, this book stuck with me. What was I in college Like? And that was giving myself a lot of credit because I was not in college. What it was was, to just fast forward. I was the mom of of a two-year-old and newborn twins, basically oh, wow. And so enough said, and I devoured that book. When did you find time to read? I don't know, I truly don't know, like I don't remember reading it, but it made a mark and I think what it was. I was so much looking for an escape from this lovely, lovely life that I was living with these three little people that to read about the inspired by stories of like what was going on in some of the wealthiest portions of Manhattan was just delightful.
Speaker 2:Oh, this could be worse. I could be getting underpaid to be with these three people and disrespected.
Speaker 1:And I didn't know, by the way that that went on you and Emma like 20 more books, Just 10,. But thank you, yes, oh, it was 10? Okay, I really did think it was 20, but I mean just 10. That sounds terrible. 10? Okay, I really did think it was 20, but I mean just 10. That sounds terrible. So, and I've heard other interviews from with you, um, about your relationship with Emma, which is so fun. I mean we just tell that really fast because I love how that all came together, it's a great story.
Speaker 2:We are so lucky to have each other. The universe really wanted us to meet and connect. No kidding, we took a class together at NYU called Gender and Performance, which was totally bananas. I never got up the courage to talk. I followed her to the elevator every Tuesday and Thursday. I would watch the doors close and promise myself next time I would have more courage.
Speaker 2:I graduated, I ran into her at the Citibank ATM on the corner of 86 and Lexington and we looked at each other and I said what are you doing here? She said I, nanny, and I live up here. I said I, nanny, and I live up here. Two days later, the family she was living with sat her down, said we're getting a divorce and we need you out by tomorrow, and she moved in with me. We didn't start writing together until four years later. In In the interim I introduced her to her now husband of almost 30 years and in that time we just kept running into each other over and over again.
Speaker 2:And then finally, in 2000, I had been acting. It was miserable. I decided that I was either going to write or I was going to teach yoga or I was going to go back to med school, and I invited Emma to a reading of a play that I'd done, and she sent me an email the next day and said hey, I really wanted to work on a book about nannying. Do you want to do this with me? That's a terrible idea. It was the worst job ever. No one would ever want to read about that. But I'm saying yes to everything right now but I'm saying yes to everything right now.
Speaker 1:So we were off to the races. I was having a year of yes before. It was cool, so okay this. I now have a new question. Lots of times when people are writing books that are inspired cause, there's a difference between inspired by and based on right, like one is really more memoir and one is you can have more fun with it. How did you feel back then about writing all that? And, oh my gosh, are these families going to see themselves in this? Am I going to go to jail? Were you just too for lack of a better word naive? And I don't mean that in a negative way, it's just. How did you we?
Speaker 2:were really clear about the satirical mandate. We were already two people telling one story, so this is not a real family. In fact, we made Greer a little boy because of pronouns. If you'd had three females in one room it would have been a nightmare. So we really approached this as novelists. We were incredibly aware of the needs of the story, Even though we thought only three people were going to read it. We took it incredibly seriously. My needs of the story, Even though we thought only three people were going to read it. We took it incredibly seriously. My mother was a librarian. My dad is a bookseller. Emma's parents were in academia.
Speaker 1:Books were everything to us. Oh my gosh, okay, that's new information. How?
Speaker 2:fun. So we took this very seriously. We read that book over hundreds of times. We would change one sentence and go back to the beginning and read it through. So there's this point in any sort of work that's inspired by real events where I say to people there is a moment you have to let this character stop being you and become yours. They have to be allowed to be a little bit braver, to think outside the box and maybe do things you wouldn't have done. The converse of that is that when people say to me but this really happened, I say it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:That doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the story, which is is this part of what you do? You still do the finished thought.
Speaker 2:Yes, every day. So I'm working with aspiring authors or seasoned authors. I have a lot of clients who are published authors multiple times over, but because of the consolidation in publishing which I know you talk about, editors do not have the bandwidth or the time to pay attention to each of their authors the way they used to, so a lot of times they will hire me independently so that I can give them the kind of one-on-one personal touch that they otherwise would have had within the system.
Speaker 1:Which is super important because, again, I think it comes down to expectations, right, and there's this expectation that you're going to have this red carpet rolled out and everyone's at your beck and call. It's not and and and in their defense. I don't think necessarily that that they're putting that on the table from the start and saying you're going to have this again. It's an expectation. But what a great gift to be able to say this is. You're kind of like they're not their therapist, but well, you probably feel like that. I really am their therapist.
Speaker 2:And I have clients who still say when are they going to take me to lunch? Yes, I'll take you to lunch, but they're not going to take you to lunch.
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry, right those lunches were too long.
Speaker 2:I had those lunches at the tail end of what that was. But has it changed? Go ahead, go ahead. No, I was just going to say that there is an expectation, because everything needs to be edited. I don't know if you've talked about the great documentary between Robert Caro and Robert Gottlieb, but if people haven't watched it, they absolutely should. What's that on? You can rent it on any platform that you want. Okay, and it's about the incredible relationship between one of the best non-fiction authors of the 20th century. But even understanding that a book like the power broker would have been 10 times as long and would have gone from a masterpiece to an unwieldy hot mess without Gottlieb. And they sat elbow to elbow with a pencil and they just worked over every single sentence, and that is. That is the pinnacle of what people still think of with an editor. But unfortunately, a lot of times that just doesn't happen anymore.
Speaker 1:And you know what's interesting is that do you ever work with indie authors? Oh, absolutely Okay. So what I find interesting is that it's what people want. This is my experience. It's what people want when they go with a traditional house. They think, or they want their editor to sit with them and go line by line. Now, when they're indie, especially when they're a first-time author, we don't look at the editing process as an integral part. I call it part two as an integral part. I call it part two of it because it's not like you write 90% and then you just have this little 10% or 95, five, and then it's just done and out the door and ready to go. You know it's. Do you find that when you're talking to people work, especially who are first time authors, that there's just kind of a in their defense? They don't know, but there's a lack of understanding of what really?
Speaker 2:What writing is the process, part of the creative process. I will have clients say to me with a straight face I don't like editing. Then you really should do something else. It's like I really want to be an ice skater but I hate the cold.
Speaker 1:Maybe you should make I want to be barefoot at all times.
Speaker 2:Editing is so much of the process. Truly, I think of the first draft as just making the clay or making the paint. You're just creating the material that you're then going to storytell with. You're not done by any means. Maybe for Stephen King you're done, but for the rest of us we're not done.
Speaker 1:I don't even think. Then I have this author group and we meet every couple of weeks and I use the clay analogy. Last week I said because for me, I love the editing. In fact I didn't use clay, I was going to use clay and then I used wax because I was a jewelry designer and I would carve out of wax, and so when I was just sitting with a block of wax, it was well, it was awful, it was just torture. But the more defined I got that wax into the design that I wanted to get it, I became obsessed and it was hard ultimately to let it go. How do you know with your own books and how do you guide people on when is it ready, whether it's to go to your back, to your editor or go to print?
Speaker 2:Personally, I know when something is close to done and this happens every single time I will start changing things and then get two pages later and realize I've either contradicted myself or I have set something up that was already done. I'm making it worse, and when I start making it worse, I step away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how do you know when it's done? Done, in other words, let's print it.
Speaker 2:I think, well, there's a combination of deadline and felt sense. Sure, you reach a point where you think I can't read this one more time. I think it's done. I think someone needs to take this away from me now Take it away. And then you still think about it.
Speaker 1:Oh, my, like I. Do you go back and read your own books once they've been published? You don't? No, should I? Oh, no, well, there's no should in my world, I mean, unless it's like we go to the park on Tuesdays. There should not be an apostrophe there, right Like, with a few exceptions, there's no should. But I think I'm a masochist and so I will go back and read mine and then think, oh, I should have said that a different way. Why did I so? I often ask do authors read their own work? Do you read your reviews? Yeah, the reviews are a whole separate conversation.
Speaker 2:But I have found a couple of times because I needed to read something for a charity event and to go back and reread the prologue of the Nanny Diaries, even all these years later, having raised a child. No, I stand by every word of that. I take back none of it.
Speaker 1:And that was done. No edits right, you and Emma. No edits, yes.
Speaker 2:That is how it? Came out.
Speaker 1:Now I want to go back and reread it 20 years later, myself knowing now that it was freakish.
Speaker 2:It was truly freakish.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's crazy cool, but not common.
Speaker 2:No, incredibly uncommon. I really do think that it was just whatever force you believe in was letting us know that we could do this and we had to keep going. Yeah, it never was that easy again.
Speaker 1:I mean, come on, that would just be right. So, for the best that we could hope, for how many years has it been since the last? Well, since the last book you released, since?
Speaker 2:I've already gotten that number wrong. Yeah, emma and I released our 10th book together. I want to say nine years ago. Okay, and that was exactly when I started working on the Best we Could Hope For nine years ago.
Speaker 1:Nine years. I love that more than I can say, because I'm always looking for the people. It took 10 years because it can. It doesn't have to. Where did the? This is different. This is a much different storyline than the Nanny Diaries was. Where did this come from? I?
Speaker 2:had this idea years ago. Also, I had been writing more sort of lyrical work on my own before Emma and I started writing together and I really let that go in the service of our shared voice, our shared vision, our shared friendship. But by the time I was turning 40, I was feeling this hunger and this craving to do something different. And Emma God bless her was such a huge fan of the idea of this and she really wanted to step away. To let me do this. But because we had always plotted very explicitly together in order not to have one of us drive the story off the rails, I gave myself permission with this novel to pants it, and that took a lot longer. Every day I would sit down. I had the general shape of the story, but I would be surprised by turns in the narrative as much as any reader is now Like, oh, that character's coming back. Didn't know that was going to happen today.
Speaker 1:It's the story of my life. But I don't think. I think you stay focused and I can't Like. I'm like, oh my God, now his name's Mateo. I need 10 days to process that news. So how do you stay on? Are you an everyday writer?
Speaker 2:Yes, when I'm creating a first draft, I give myself the mission of just 500 words a day, five days a week. In seven months, you will have a first draft. It's not an incredibly heavy lift because simultaneously I was working with all of my clients, so I didn't just stop down and crank the first draft out in three months. Also, I had periods where the characters hung up on me and so I just had to wait for them to call me back and I decided I was just going to be patient with that because I wasn't under deadline and that was the gift that I was giving myself. And then the pandemic happened. So initially, the book was supposed to go out for submission on March 3, 2020. And my agent said let's just give it a couple of weeks and just see where things land. Three years later it finally went out again, but it was good All the time that I had allowed the book to flourish to where it was supposed to be, and it took me a long time to see that clearly.
Speaker 1:Well, you say your characters hung up on you. I think mine have just left. I don't. I think they've left the country. I mean, I don't necessarily blame them, but I don't know where they are, like I, right now. That's my, that's my excuse is no, I know that, hello, hello. I know that, hello, hello. So do you get? I'm fascinated by the pantsing process because I am that and I'm kind of a plotter and I don't know. I think I'm a what do they call it? A planter, like?
Speaker 1:when you're a planter when you're kind of in between, do you? You can obviously stay on track, though, with it.
Speaker 2:I had a sense, I knew where the story was ultimately going. You did so. There was something driving me forward. Okay, and after I wrote the first incredibly unwieldy version primarily unwieldy because I thought initially I wanted to tell it chronologically- out of order.
Speaker 2:And I was. The story spans from 1943 to around 2014 and I opened the novel in 1974. I had a really clear vision of this scene between this mother and daughter and by starting there I was having to tell 30 years in flashbacks and then moving forward, it was creating a tonal disconnect. It just was making it unnecessarily messy and I didn't recognize that. That's where I was hanging myself up until I listened to Harvey Fierstein's memoir.
Speaker 2:For those of you who don't know, he wrote Torch Song Trilogy. He wrote the book for Kinky Boots on Broadway. He is the brother in Mrs Doubtfire. He's the best. I'm completely obsessed with him and his memoir was a phenomenal masterclass on story structure. And at one point because he's talking about writing musicals which take years and you can get it on its feet in one city and completely reorder the show and get something totally different and I asked myself is there a given circumstance that I'm too attached to where I'm getting my own way? And as soon as I asked the question, I thought, oh, I need to start at the beginning, not 74. I need to start in 43 and then just tell the whole story. And so over the course of one summer, I rewrote the entire novel from the beginning in the present tense, and it changed everything. New scenes came up, characters suddenly behaved very differently when I was with them in the present moment, as opposed to seeing them from a distance, and it just sparkled and it was done. Thank you, harvey.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, and I'm gonna link that book below and the documentary and all was done. Thank you, harvey. Yeah, well, and I'm going to link that book below and the documentary and all of that, and then I'm going to spend my day doing it and not working on my own novel. You said you ended up making it in the present tense. When you are trying to decide for yourself or you're helping one of your clients decide air quote should it be present tense or first person, past tense or third person? Past tense or third person, past tense or first person, omniscient or whatever that, all these different things, what's your? Do you have any kind of guidance on how you help someone figure out what they want to do, because all of them can work, do you? Do you agree with that? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I had actually hung myself up because somewhere along the line I had gotten the very unhelpful advice that serious books were never in the present tense, that fiction, all caps had to be in the past tense. And then I read Wolf Hall and the whole trilogy is in the present tense, and that's what makes it brilliant, the immediacy of being inside of Henry VIII's court and Thomas Cromwell's mind. And so I was like, well, I just got some really bad advice and I'm going to throw that out. I think the difference between being in the present tense and being in the past tense is that there's sort of an absolutism to anything you tell in the past tense. It was, and you've already had time to process it and it becomes immutable, it becomes fact. And because my novel is so much about how memories are unreliable, I wanted to go back and tell the story in the present tense because people were making decisions in real time, making mistakes in real time, and I didn't want you to meet the consequences of those mistakes yet Okay that.
Speaker 1:I've never heard that expressed that way, and I I love that because it's just a new way to look at how. How movable do you want the, the facts of of it all to be, do you think too? I'm just realizing this now for myself. Readers just have a preference. I like reading books that are in the first person, in the present tense, but right now I'm obsessed with. Have you read Romantic Comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld? No, I haven't yet, but it's on my nightstand. Okay, you're probably not going to be able to put it down. She's so good I feel like we need to talk about it again after you're finished. So please let us do that, if you can stand me for another. I didn't realize until last night at midnight, which is well past my bedtime, that it's in the past tense, like, and it works. But it's. It works because, well, she's brilliant. I mean, she just brings you in. So I think it can. It can be you can bring someone in in either way you know either approach.
Speaker 2:Now I'm trying to remember. Did you read God of the Woods this summer? Was that in the past tense or the present? It has that sense of immediacy, but I think it might have been written in the past tense. I think that takes some good skill. You have to follow your gut. Yeah, and writers hate it when I say that to them because they want there to be an absolute answer. Right, but so much of the creative process is subjective and no two people get a book finished the same way, Even people who you absolutely respect and adore.
Speaker 1:There's no one who can do it and who have written 30 books I mean people who have written dozens of books will often have a different process, subtly. Subtly, because their process evolves.
Speaker 2:You can put two Pulitzer Prize winners in the same room and they will do it completely differently. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's much like editing. So I often will say you know, because I edit as well, and I'll say look, you could put 10 of the best editors in the world. You could give them all the same manuscript. They would all have different suggestions. None of them is right and none of them is wrong. Yeah, right, and it's maddening, but it's true. It is maddening because we want an answer. We want someone to say this is the way to say this, in order for the masses to love it.
Speaker 2:And that is an interesting criteria, because I often say to people look, you can do what you want to do. Ultimately, you have to please yourself. However, if you're hiring me because you want an agent, you want to be published, you want to meet the mandate of the marketplace, well then, I'll tell you how to do that, and that means you are going to have to do this handful of things.
Speaker 1:That you maybe don't really want to do, yeah, yeah, so what in the last nine years, do you see, has really changed or shifted in publishing that you either knew was happening because you were following it, or kind of surprised you.
Speaker 2:I think the resurgence of the print book has been a delightful surprise. You know that Kindle dominance was a blip. Readers love reading books, even my daughter. I offered to get her a Kindle subscription because she just tears through porn, basically, and she said no, mom, it's my paper time, it's the time that I am away from the digital media. I was like fine, I'll keep paying for the books. That was a great answer, so that's been wonderful. I think the consolidations continue apace. I think that what that means is that agents are doing more editing than they ever did before, but that's time consuming, so I think they're taking on fewer clients than they ever did before, and publishing houses are having a really hard time figuring out how to break out. First-time authors right now, and I think the onus has also shifted so much more onto authors to promote your book. On one hand, it's great because it gives you something to do. You're not just sitting there twiddling your thumbs waiting for a magazine to cover you. But for authors who are a little bit shy, it can feel torturous.
Speaker 1:A thousand, even though there's no such thing as a thousand percent. A thousand percent because so many creative people, whether they're writers or painters or musicians, like they. They're introverted or they they identify as introverted. Being in front of people and selling their own thing and trying to convince other people why they should invest in something. That is torturous is a great word. It's so mean, and yet it's just what it is. And so I often say to people you don't have to do anything. You can put the book out and you can hope and pray that word of mouth will do something, but if it doesn't, don't come back and say it's not. No one's buying it. There are 42 million titles on Amazon. It's probably more than that now.
Speaker 2:Yes, and you'll be mad at yourself if you didn't try. And I also say to people, there are so many ways of coming at this. You find the thing that you do love talking about or love posting about Catherine Newman has her fabulous cats, you know. Find the thing that fills you with joy and you will communicate that joy to other people.
Speaker 1:What did you call them?
Speaker 2:Publicity snafus, and oh yes, pr nightmares, unforced, errors.
Speaker 1:But it's. I tell people and I'm going to tell people, like go watch your Instagram, because, people, you can promote yourself without promoting yourself. Oh, absolutely, because if I had seen first of all, I would have been like, oh my God, she said to Adam Brody, but then it wasn't Adam Brody. I'm really I'm still recovering from that. I had a really scary moment there. You see the person, you fall in love with the person and then you find out, oh, they've written a book. I'm going to go check it out. That's just sort of how our brain works. It's not. It doesn't have to be. Hi, I'm Elizabeth. I wrote this book. Go buy it. Have a great day. What's your favorite approach to public? What are you enjoying doing for the new book?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean loving talking to people. As someone who spends way too much time every day by myself at my desk, especially talking to other people who are equally obsessed with books, it's really, really fun. I'm writing a lot of essays, which is really challenging. Halfway through each one I go why would anyone care? And then I have to slap myself in the face and just keep going and not talk myself out of it and then looking forward to getting the book in people's hands. After nine years of being alone with this story, it's been wonderful to see the early reviews and see that people are deeply moved by this story, so I'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 1:I think that's always helpful in feeding one's momentum and author's momentum is starting to get that feedback that people are moved by it in ways that you didn't anticipate. Has that happened at all, where someone said this particular scene or the mention of this thing really struck me and you think I didn't intend that, this thing really struck me and you think I didn't intend that Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I had one woman who was given the book through a mutual friend who'd gotten a review copy so not a reviewer. But she got my phone number and called me, hysterically sobbing, and she said I read the end of the book and I looked at the clock and realized it was the anniversary of my mother's death and I felt like you sent this book to me to heal that relationship. What do you say to that? I don't. It was such a gift.
Speaker 2:I was like all right, I'm done. I don't need anyone else to read it Right, right, thank you. That was the mission I wrote it just for you.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go get a miniature Highland cow and call it a day. That's my new obsession. If you post about a miniature Highland cow on Instagram and you're an author, I'll buy everything you've ever written. So there's an idea. Good to know. Yes, Well, if you get one, I'm just going to show up. It's like listen, we've had a conversation. Here I am. I'm here to pet the cow.
Speaker 2:I'm now obsessed with the mini goats the people have, like the hand-sized goats.
Speaker 1:The, the people of like the hand-sized goats, the way they hop around. They're so cute. I I feel like they're just so joyful. I know they seem very happy, to be small. They prant.
Speaker 2:Have you seen the, the baby donkeys yes I mean I know this is what the internet was made for it.
Speaker 1:How do they come out so furry? Sometimes the owners of the mother donkey, whatever that's called will be like this baby donkey was just born two hours ago and I think, like you've already fluffed it up it's so fluffy like did you. Is there a did you? I don't know what. Is there a comb, like something went?
Speaker 2:on there you took a little blow dryer to the donkey apparatus.
Speaker 1:I feel like they've been glammed. They have a glam squad.
Speaker 2:I'm totally your friend, there's a job.
Speaker 1:If you haven't found this yet, I'm probably going to say it wrong. But Knuckle Bump Farms. No, okay, I'm going to send you, I'm going to Instagram it to you and I'll put it under below. I'm so disappointed right now that I can't remember this girl's name. I'll put it in the intro because she's the star of the whole thing and I. She's this farmer and she raises this whole gaggle of animals and she kind of became famous because she has this emu named Emmanuel Todd Lopez. Yes, yes to all of that, yes to all of it. And Emmanuel won't let her film anything. So when she's filming, all of a sudden you'll see the emu's head come up and then it will just people listening can't see this, but he'll peck the camera and she's like Emmanuel, stop it, emmanuel. And it's just life-giving.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's wonderful. I'm going to go check that out today.
Speaker 1:I need to let you know that now you know about that and you can join me.
Speaker 2:No, I feel better.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I'm glad Because otherwise I just told everyone's like move on Um. What with indie authors? How? Do you, how are you guiding them differently, like in terms of what are you seeing in terms of pros, cons, opportunities, challenges?
Speaker 2:We, emma and I, did our last book through an indie publisher. Okay, and it was phenomenal. We had already written the book and our conventional publisher gave it back to us Keep your money, keep the book. We just want to do something else, so we gave them a different story. It had already been paid for the book and we had it, but we really wanted to share it with people and it was called so Close and people are still buying it and love it. It was a great experience.
Speaker 1:So was it like a, was it a self self, it was a bookspark, oh bookspark.
Speaker 2:Okay yeah, and it was fantastic. So essentially, we bought a wonderful PR package. We got some of the best promotion we've ever gotten. The book was in all the bookstores, it was available online Nobody could tell the difference and it was a level of attention and thoughtfulness in terms of getting the book in the hands of people who actually wanted it that we had never experienced in conventional publishing. So I'm a big fan. They're here, I believe, scottsdale.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:The way that conventional publishing operates needs to be disrupted. Thank you. They don't know how to market. It is mind-blowing for my clients who are CEOs when they move through the process of trying to sell their book and realize that there is no real plan for letting people know that their book is coming out. They are stunned, no matter how much I warn them. So they expect to take all this money on the back end to offset their investment. But other than physically making the book and doing the distribution which any hybrid can do, what are they doing for you, right? So I do think that people are going to be making the shift. I won't say en masse, but I think that's going to be a far bigger segment of publishing over the next decade.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think it's very interesting because and I'm admittedly, I've never been traditionally published. So all of my anecdotal evidence comes from my many friends who are, and people I talk to here on the podcast who have been or are, and I have several friends who are traditionally published and wouldn't have it any other way. And then, on the flip side, I work with individuals who come to me and they say I really want to pursue a traditional route and I always ask why? Because I think why you're going around as important? And they'll say, well, because they'll sell the book for me. And that's when we have to have an honest conversation and sometimes they believe me and sometimes they don't and they think, well, you've never done it, I'm going to be the exception, or whatever the case is. And if they get the deal, lots of times they come back and say you were right, which I love, love, love to hear, and because I never hear it from my children.
Speaker 2:So I will take it wherever I can get it, totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then other times you know, they know what to expect. Like I have a good friend, neely Alexander, who is a phenomenal fiction writer with Harper Collins, actually works with book sparks, has worked with book sparks in the past on her publicity. So one of the things that you know she's told me and said publicly I'm not is that lots of times traditionally published authors will take their advance and they will then give a large portion, if not all of it, to publicity and also to someone like yourself who's helping them finish the book or guide them through the publishing process, so that they have someone their 911 person. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:When I always ask people why do you want to write a book? And if they say anything about making money or hitting bestseller or yeah, you are in the wrong arena because you are going to take that advance and invest it back into your publicity. Oh my gosh, sorry, the doorbell just rang and my dog went ballistic. Can you hold on one second?
Speaker 1:I didn't even hear it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I prayed that UPS wasn't going to show up while I was talking to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the beauty of this not being live. Yeah, thank you, but if it were, I would just vamp.
Speaker 2:If it was live, I was going to drop him off at the. I was about to say the dog shelter, not the dog shelter, the dog daycare around the corner. I love him.
Speaker 1:The shelter, To be clear everyone. But if you went there, there might be an emu that you could name Totally, or just a raccoon in a vest, which is my favorite thing All of it Like. This is what it's come to. Okay, last I got, I could talk to you for at truly, we're going to do this. You don't real, you may not like agree, but it's going to happen. So the last question I always ask people is what are you reading now, or what have you read recently that you just really loved?
Speaker 2:Ooh, look at that cover. Isn't it a beautiful cover. It's called the Safe Keep by Yael van der Woeden. She is a Dutch author. It is in translation. My neighbor bought the book last week, stayed up all night reading it in one sitting. Gave it to my other neighbor we're all in a book club together. She read it in one day. I started reading it in one sitting. Gave it to my other neighbor we're all in a book club together she read it in one day. I started reading it yesterday. If I hadn't had to stop for my husband's birthday, I would have stayed up all night finishing it. It's compulsive. It's set in Holland in 1961, over the course of a couple of weeks, in the countryside. Nothing about this seems like it is the makings of a thriller. It's not a thriller, it's just incredibly compulsive and propulsive and you just don't want to stop reading. You're dying to find out what happens.
Speaker 1:I find that really interesting, because the way you described it and you said like this doesn't you don't hear this and go. Oh my God, I have to have that Right and yet it and so it creates such a kind of a problem for authors, until there's someone like you and your neighbors who are telling people yes, cause, now I'm ordering it.
Speaker 2:This is what, when people ask me, how can I help authors? If you loved a book, tell people. You don't have to do it on social media. You can just tell your friends, but that is how the word gets spread. It's so important.
Speaker 1:Don't keep the love to yourself. Say that again.
Speaker 2:Don't keep the love to yourself.
Speaker 1:Don't keep the love. It's just, I mean, with all the little libraries. I was on a walk the other day and one of my neighbors has one of those free little libraries in front of her house and I I found the um, sophie Cousins, I think, is her name, and she's kind of a rom-com, you know, like an Emily Henry vibe, and I don't like comparing people cause that's not fair, but that's the general gist. I had never heard of her and then I messaged. I didn't message her but I tagged her on Instagram and she liked it.
Speaker 1:And I thought this is how it happens, you know because it's just you, just people like something and they're willing to pass it on. And sometimes that's hard because I like to keep them all around me. It's like a warm blanket, I think.
Speaker 2:Also if someone gives me a book and I love the book. I will then go and buy a copy to give to someone else, or I will buy the audio, or I will make a purchase to help support the author, because those things are incredibly important in terms of giving authors the opportunity to be published again.
Speaker 1:That, no matter how they publish the first time, but certainly in a traditional world, because those numbers are everything, it is a business. Yes, Right, and those numbers are I mean the publishing houses I think it is safe to say make their money off their top one, the top 1%, right? Yes, and that goes back to what you said at the beginning about getting these debut authors to break out, is it's a real, it's important to them and it's a real challenge.
Speaker 2:Also, it really annoys me when people who write literary fiction are then snarky about their commercial siblings in the other divisions. Like those people are underwriting you being published Right. You should say a big thank you to them. We need Lee Childs and Stephen King and David Baldacci and all of those people because they're keeping the lights on Sing it.
Speaker 1:I mean really. And so I think it's just it's perspective and it's hearing that and recognizing. You know, when you hear there can be a, when they come out with the reports every quarter of how well the or every year of how well the publishing houses are doing, and they say, oh, they're down 25%, it's not because people aren't reading books, it's because Lee Childs didn't publish a book in that particular year or quarter or month or whatever it was. It has nothing. We can't misconstrue the overall trends, correct. Well, I cannot wait. I don't have my hands yet on the best, don't worry, it's coming. Oh, good Coming. I either Diana has sent it or I'm ordering it or both, because I have a feeling the fact that it starts the one character was born in 1972. Right, yes. One character, yes, yes, because I was born in 1972, right, yes. One character, yes, yes, because I was born in 1972. I mean not to, not to, but I just feel like that was a sign. So I'm going to send a copy to my mother because she birthed me in 1972.
Speaker 2:So read it before you send it to her.
Speaker 1:Oh really, yeah, Well, no, wait, wait, we can't, why.
Speaker 2:It looks at baby boomers as being possibly the worst parents.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm totally sending it to her, then, oh, this is great, this is going to be like a psychological study, like how she reacts to it. It's going to give us a good conversation, I feel. Oh excellent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel great about it. Oh, I knew people like this Right.
Speaker 1:Is there Tupperware? Oh, yes, of course. Yes, oh, this is God. I'm so excited and I'd love just first of all the absolute best of luck with it, thank, you for doing the Danny. Diaries and keeping me so happy during that time when I was just very happy but drowning in bottles.
Speaker 2:Drowning, drowning, yes, no, laughter is everything.
Speaker 1:Laughter is everything I'm going to send. On that note, I will send you the Instagram, Emmanuel Todd Lopez, and thank you. Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh this was so great. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.
