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Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing. Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
Ep 121: Lights, Camera, Book Launch with Noël Stark
Click Here to ask your book writing and publishing questions!
This week, I sat down with debut author Noël Stark, who went from wrangling chaos behind the scenes in the TV and film world to wrangling words on the page, often in 15-minute bursts. Her novel, Love Camera Action, flips the script on Hollywood romance by spotlighting the crew, not the stars (and the 3 peppers on the spice scale are sure to attract an audience quickly.
Inside the Episode:
- Why Noël intentionally wrote a love story about the people behind the camera.
- How it took her three years to finish her manuscript (and why that timeline is totally okay if not to be expected).
- The rollercoaster of Pitch Wars, querying 40+ agents, and the 18-month wait from “yes” to launch day.
- Choosing not to read reviews during launch (because sanity matters, and confidence is a fragile beast).
- Why she tailors content differently for Instagram vs. TikTok, and how showing up as her real self resonates most.
- What’s next: a sequel that turns the spotlight on the actors from book one, and an intriguing speculative fiction project that has her lit up.
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Write the Damn Book Already is a weekly podcast featuring interviews with authors as well as updates and insights on writing craft and the publishing industry.
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Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory, if you're anything like me. In short, I love books and I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most impactful ways we connect with one another. A few things I don't believe in Gimmicks, magic bullets and swoon-worthy results without context, as in be sure to reveal that a result took eight years or required a $30,000 investment in ads, because those details are just as important. What I believe in most as an author, the long game is the shortcut For more book writing and publishing. Tips and solutions. Visit publishaprofitablebookcom or visit me over on Instagram at Elizabeth Lyons. Author. Hi everybody.
Speaker 1:So I don't really know what is happening with TV writers, but I'm not mad about it. Several episodes ago I talked with Michael Jammin and then I think two if not three episodes ago, was Jordan Roeder, and today I had so much fun talking to Noelle Stark. Noelle has worked in almost every position. She lists them out and she's not. It's to say, almost every position is not an exaggeration In the film and TV industry. She's been in front of the camera, behind the camera. She's Canadian, but she lives in LA with her young son. And oh, this is where I is, where I had asked her in the podcast, where I found out this fun fact about her and I guess it was right here in her About page she likes chocolate milk in her coffee, which we had to have a chat about because that felt like new and it did not disappoint the conversation about chocolate milk and what chocolate milk and where she gets the chocolate milk and where she gets the like, what chocolate milk and where she gets the chocolate milk.
Speaker 1:What was really amazing was talking about the transition and the sort of comparison, I guess, between being a TV writer and then writing her debut novel, love Camera Action, which comes out on the 22nd so as of the air date of this podcast, it would have been yesterday, april 22nd of 2025, and how she took her experiences in the TV world and parlayed them into this novel, how long it actually took to write, how long it took to get sold, how long it took to come out, and then all of the marketing stuff that she did and didn't anticipate on the back end and how she's navigating all of it. It was a really fun conversation and, as usual, I have all of her links in the show notes so that you can find her and follow her. She has a really fun couple of little repeat bits that she does on her Instagram profile that I laughed out loud at one of them and I'm betting you will too. So those are all in the episode notes. Let's just get on with the conversation. Your post about daylight savings Are you in LA?
Speaker 2:I am in LA, okay, well.
Speaker 1:I'm in Phoenix where we don't have daylight savings time. Oh, you're so lucky.
Speaker 2:You're not lucky why?
Speaker 1:because everybody else's schedule changes so I have to like adjust everything I see, yeah, that is a pain.
Speaker 2:I just want everyone to stop. We have a similar I'm canadian there we have a similar thing in saskatchewan. Saskatchewan, that whole province, is not on daylight savings and that's why everybody, oh well, why do we have it still? And it's like, oh, because of the farmers, and it's not because of the farmers, it's not because of the farmers.
Speaker 1:A hundred, it can't be, and I it's just exhausting. So two weeks out of the year, right Six months apart, I just let people know I'm going to be an hour early or an hour late, or I'm just not going to show up at all, and I guess you can blame the farmers, that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um so non book related question. First chocolate milk in your coffee. Talk to me about this.
Speaker 2:This is like way more controversial than I ever thought it would be.
Speaker 1:It was like the first thing where I don't know where I saw it. Where would I've seen that?
Speaker 2:It's in my because, like I think, my publicist.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's where then?
Speaker 2:okay, yeah, yeah, um, okay. So I either drink my coffee black or with chocolate milk. Okay and uh, it is honestly one of my favorite favorite things is it like a specific kind of chocolate? Milk like, oh you know like, the best is in those like like glass bottles.
Speaker 1:I knew you were going to say that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but they're $900. I was just going to say that too.
Speaker 1:Exactly, but yeah, they make you feel really fancy.
Speaker 2:So fancy. So fancy and like organic and like all the things, but it's also just better chocolate milk.
Speaker 1:I take your word for it, cause I haven't actually tried it.
Speaker 2:Right, but maybe I should, because when was the last time you had chocolate milk?
Speaker 1:I don't remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like maybe you're eight or nine years old.
Speaker 1:Exactly, which was just eons ago. Yeah, so talk to me about this book and how it came, cause it comes out a week from today. Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, it's the 15th, so 22nd the 22nd it comes out, yeah love camera action and I love just to play on that word for a minute how, when people I there seems to be a TV writer thing happening over here, because Jordan Roeder was on a couple of weeks ago and Michael Jammon was on, and so I love, I'm, I'm very intrigued by when you're used to writing for TV or being in the TV space and then translating that over. So just tell me all the things. Yeah, okay, so well.
Speaker 2:I, I. I work in in tv, but I work in a lot of different types of formats. I have worked in scripted, but I've also worked a ton in reality, um, as a writer, as a producer, as an actress, as a director, as a PA, as a locations assist in casting. Like everything I have done almost every single role.
Speaker 1:I just saw Paw Patrol and I didn't watch Paw Patrol, but my best friend's son, who's now nine, was completely obsessed with Paw Patrol and my girlfriend, natalie, would say I can't stop singing Like it, just it was bad, she couldn't stop. So when I saw that, I had to laugh, and I'll have to let her know that we chatted, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, papa trolled that. Like children's TV too, like I've done, I've done voice work in children's TV. Yeah, I've pretty much hit it from every side. So when I decided naively to write a romance novel because I really didn't, although, you know, I knew the books took a lot of work For some reason I thought a romance novel would take less work.
Speaker 2:I don't know why I had that impression. It's completely wrong, but I did have that impression. I thought I was going through a huge romance reading binge and I just really loved the form and I said you know what, I can write one of these Famous last words right, famous last words. But I wanted to write a book that I didn't have to spend a lot of time building the world, because I wanted to focus on the characters. I wanted to focus on the structure, I wanted to focus just, you know, getting my feet under me. So, you know, write what you know. And that was the world of TV. And also, you know, I had read a lot of Hollywood romances and I noticed that a lot of them are focused on the actors or on the writers sometimes, but not really on the crew. So I wanted to write this book about the director, who's a woman, and her director of photography, who's a guy, and their trials and tribulations as they fall in love on set.
Speaker 1:So what and like what? Was there an initial moment where you kind of thought, man, this is a lot harder than I thought it was going to be?
Speaker 2:yeah, like almost every step of the way are you a plotter or a pantser?
Speaker 2:or somewhere in between. For this book I was a pantser, which, now that I've, I've written more I'm, I've, I'm a plantser, as they call it. It helps to plot things out and then throw them out later Um and uh, and then, you know, just let the pantsing stuff kind of come in. But it took me so much longer because I was a pantser, like I would go off on tangents that I had to reel myself back from and realize certain things had nothing to do with the story. So yeah, I'm in that middle ground.
Speaker 1:So how long did it take you then to finish? Let's just call it what's draft, one which is, you know, draft one of 672.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean I would say, okay, I'll say, I'll say draft two, just because I was bouncing around a lot and I'm a, I'm a single mom, uh huh.
Speaker 2:So, and I work in TV, which is very demanding, so my time was not, it was scarce, my time is scarce. So getting it to a place where someone could read it and I didn't feel nauseous about them reading it which I'll call the second draft took me three years. It took me three years from beginning to end, because I was literally stealing 15 minutes here and 20 minutes there. I was, I was writing on the bus to work, I was writing in front of my kids' taekwondo classes, I was just stealing time at 5.30 in the morning On your laptop, or do you have a variety?
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, I just saw the other day who is it who wrote a huge chunk if not all, not all, but a huge chunk of her book in her notes app. It's a current. I'll put it in the show notes as soon as I remember it, but it's a current, yeah, best-selling book, and I don't want to say any. I keep getting this idea that it's a certain one, but I don't want to say it if it's not at any rate, um, I, but I think it was in like the romance, because she was talking about a scene with her husband in the grocery store, and it's like stuff you couldn't make up. So when it happens, does that work for you too?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I, I, when I see something in real life happen, I that I think is a cute little scene or the spark of a scene, then I go write it down real quick and I'll, I'll, I'll write it in an email and then email it to myself. Oh, okay, then I know, like I, I have, like I've cleared. A couple of years ago I cleared out my inbox. So when in like one message, I know it was really cathartic, I have to say. You know what I did? I just hit select all archive.
Speaker 1:Right, right, I don't know what I archived. I mean there's still many people who are like you're haven't responded to me's been five years, but yeah, yeah, oh, let me be clear.
Speaker 2:Unopened emails. Unopened emails oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah when emails come in now, like seeing them, it bugs me. I'm like I don't have my clear email box, so then it's a way for me.
Speaker 1:So you're one of those inbox zero gals.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm one of those inbox zero people, so when I send myself a note, it bugs me enough that I have to then go put it in the proper place, where it should be, which is in my document for my novel.
Speaker 1:Now what about your texts? So if you have inbox zero, do you also need to be at text zero? Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you not have that? Oh, I, absolutely. I don't have to be at inbox zero because I can't. It's a fruit, it's, I just can't. I get so irritated with people who are like I can't go to bed, my inbox isn't at zero. I'm like you know. But I have a very good friend whose inbox has to be at zero. But I recently saw their text bullet or whatever, and it was like 862. Oh my God, noelle, I had a panic attack. It was a lot. I was like well and and they were like well, it's all spam stuff. I said then delete it. Yeah, just delete it. I don't understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but then I thought, maybe that's my, one of my characters will have that issue.
Speaker 1:I don't know. You know, so once you finished with that draft two, we'll call it where you were ready to hand it over without feeling nauseous, did you go with beta readers? Did you go into editing? What was your approach? Did you always know you wanted to traditionally publish all these?
Speaker 2:I was hoping to traditionally publish because, as said single mom, I didn't want to have the like. I didn't want to have to figure out marketing and formatting and all that kind of stuff. I just knew that would be too overwhelming for me at that stage. I mean, if I didn't get traditionally published with this book I would have gone down that road for sure. Yeah, but luckily I didn't. So I just wanted to kind of have those tasks off my plate. But what I did was I entered it into a contest called Pitch Wars, which was you remember that?
Speaker 2:So it was the last year that they had Pitch Wars and you submitted your MS and you got an editor slash, mentor and I went through that program and then they got me on the road of getting an agent. Then it took me a long time to get an agent like 40 something queries to get an agent. And then once I got my agent he submitted me. But he took his time submitting like one or two here and there. So that took some time and then he decided he didn't want to be in the business anymore.
Speaker 2:Then I had to get a new agent, oh really yeah, so, but but by the time he was leaving it it sold like someone okay. Okay, so, um, it made my transition over to another agent easier because I had that um, and so it was a long process and uh, in that process, you know, I've been writing other things, um, because you can't wait around. But uh, yeah, it was, it took a long time, it was a long time.
Speaker 1:So how long was it then from? I always like to, when possible, help better set people's expectations for how long something can can take. It doesn't have to take this long, but it can. So, from the publishing house acquiring it to next week it becoming available, how long of a span is that?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, that was November of last year, so that was a year and a half.
Speaker 1:Really Okay. That's about average, it seems. I don't know I mean again there is no normal anymore, right.
Speaker 2:I'm feeling that Past that threshold.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of that, have there been things that have happened, either in the writing or the publishing or the getting ready to launch journey, that you really did not expect or that you thought would go differently? And I don't necessarily mean in a bad way, but but if it's bad, that's fine too.
Speaker 2:Because I had no preconceived notions and this is part of why sometimes my naivete works for me because I didn't have any thought of how things should go or how long they should take. I I didn't. I didn't have too many disappointments or excitements, do you know? Like I mean, I did find the whole process took very long, really long. The whole process, which hopefully will go faster with subsequent books. But yeah, it was just like every step of the way I've been learning something.
Speaker 2:So, as the process has been going on with publishing, like learning about what my role is in the cover or what my role is in the copywriting or what my role is in the publicity, like there's I've been doing publicity for the past three months, which is just like, oh my God, I'm so tired and I and it's all leading up to this next week, which is all very exciting. Like I'm I will not not say that it's very exciting, but it's a lot of work. So, yeah, I think I, I think I just didn't have any preconceived notions. I guess I was hoping that other people would do more work.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, so thank you for leading me right into the next one. And this is different for everybody, right? So I'm very clear that just your experience, my experience is not probably going to be the next person's experience, but what kind of a say or not did you have in cover and like, what were? What did you have to do? You mentioned copyright, that you thought why do I have to do that? Do I have to do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no. Well for the cover and I think I was pretty lucky to be able to have any kind of say, because I think some people don't get any say at all in traditional publishing yes, but they gave me, you know, four options and I told them what I liked about the various four options and I weighed in on what I liked and then they kept. They kept kind of coming back with versions and they would say we really love this, do you love it? And I'm like, no, I don't love it. It's you know, and I'd say this is really good and this is really good, but this has to go.
Speaker 2:This right here has has to go was the title.
Speaker 1:Your original title is that title your light love camera.
Speaker 2:That's my original title, yeah okay, um, well, actually it had. It had a title, a different title, when I was just writing it, which was taking direction, but my mentor, slash editor, said it didn't, it was too insider baseball, like that's something you say inside the industry, taking direction. So she said, you know, do something a little bit more like describe exactly what's in the tin, like, and so I went with that. I'm like you know exactly what that story's about.
Speaker 1:It's about love on your mark is probably to insider information. Yeah on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because on your mark could be running right Like, but yeah, that's very insider in love. Sometimes you're doing that too, but you know the mark and then, in terms of sorry, in terms of copywriting, I was just, I was just shocked how many times I had to read it, how many times I had to proofread it, Like they did copy editing. But then I would have to go over it again and see if there was anything else, okay, so you don't mean registering the copyright.
Speaker 1:We're talking about editing, okay, editing like back end editing. Doesn't that get so tedious? You feel like, if I have to read this thing one more time, oh my God.
Speaker 2:It's terrible.
Speaker 1:The worst Are you a person who, when you get to that point, even though you're probably told only look for copy, edit issues like commas, and and there's a double period and there shouldn't be you go this sentence. Can we change this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am totally that person and I made the mistake of reading some of my NetGalley reviews and I skipped all the good reviews and went straight for a bad review which was so dumb and it sent me into a panic Like what can you share? What it was? It was something. Yeah, it was something like it was a DNF and they DNF it because the pros was too purple and I was like oh my God, Like okay, so you're saying things that people may not even.
Speaker 1:So DNF is did not finish Right.
Speaker 2:And what do?
Speaker 1:you mean the pros is too purple nf is did not finish right.
Speaker 2:And what do you mean? The prose is too purple. I've never, when they say that pro, like purple prose is like when it's too flowery, when they're when it's not more straight forward, and so, um, and since then I've realized some people do think it's got that and other people think it's like really well written or like it's really really straightforward. So, like I, I began to understand that there, for every bad one there, there's a, there's a good one that balances it out.
Speaker 2:But it sent me in an absolute panic and so then that was right, before I had to do the, that pass, and I had to phone up my editor and say, listen, I'm panicking, like what is my job here on this edit, because I'm about to change everything. And she calmed me down very kindly and then when I went in, I did look, I did look for that. I was like, okay, yeah, you know what this sentence could be clarified, or this sentence could be chopped up, or you know, I did go and do that. So I don't know if it was more than most or less than most, but I for sure had a little bit.
Speaker 1:But you were able, they allowed you to make those. Okay, that's great, that's great. Yeah, those early reviews can be very difficult, yes, and it's always. How do you feel about, and it would be interesting to see how your opinion changes or doesn't, after a few months. But how do you feel about looking at your reviews?
Speaker 2:For me now at this state, because I'm just a baby author, I decided not to look at any reviews. I mean, I had my stepdaughter go and look at reviews and I said, just tell me the nice ones. Because I needed to be bolstered in a way, because if I was going to go out and sell this book I needed to be behind it. I needed to feel really confident about it.
Speaker 1:So do you mean on the net galley reviews or like on Goodreads? What was?
Speaker 2:coming out. Net galley reviews just net galley reviews.
Speaker 1:So you looked at a negative review and then you said I'm not going to do that anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, exactly Okay, because I just needed to protect myself. Now I have a plan to go look at all the reviews once you know the launch is over and I don't have to be like super booster for it Um, because I do think it's valuable to look at reviews and just to see if there's any any common threads, uh, with critiques, um, both positive and negative. Uh, because I think, like it's my first book, so I have a lot to learn. I didn't go to school for writing. I didn't. I learned from the ground up, so I have a lot to learn, but I couldn't. There's also a lot of people, as you know, uh, who have opinions, very strong opinions, without really thinking about what those opinions might mean. You kind of have to protect yourself a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we talk about this a lot because reviews are valid. I mean, I think reviews are great as long as they're obviously respectful and they're not seemingly a personal attack. They can help, I think, people figure out what their core readership likes and doesn't like. So when you go into your subsequent books you might give some thought to do I want to be less purple or do I want to be whatever the suggestion might be? And at the same time it helps you to establish who do I want to be, whatever the suggestion might be, and at the same time it helps you to establish who do I want to be as a writer. So you just take that input and say, well, I want to be purple, yeah yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:I think that's the point of reviews is just to hone your voice, hone what you want to say, what you think is important and what you are willing to give up. You know, like that's. That's the great thing about working in TV is that I, when I first started working again, I would take notes to what I was doing very much to heart. But it became very hardened because they are paying me to make what they want and to not take notes personally. So it's easy for me to get to a point where I'm like okay, this isn't working. This, this tack that I'm taking, is not working, so it needs to be either rejigged or just abandoned. And I just couldn't do it on this one because I was a baby author and I had to say, okay, that's not going to help me right now. I know it will help me down the road, but it won't help me right now. So then I just had to say no more reviews.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's so interesting how, when we put ourselves into something, and we are a baby at that thing, it takes some time to not take stuff personally and to recognize, too, that people who are writing reviews I've often heard Goodreads is a great place for reviewers and it's a horrible place for authors, because it's a place where reviewers get to. Sometimes they've just had a really bad day and it just so happens that they read your book the night before, and so they're blaming their bad day on your main character before, and so they're blaming their bad day on your main character, and one has nothing to do with the other. And if, as writers, we take all of that as truth and incorporate it, all of a sudden we don't even know who we are as writers anymore, because the yeah, it's noise exactly and and also, you know, a lot of people who are reviewing don't actually don't necessarily.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of great reviewers, don't get me wrong, but there's a lot of people who are reviewing don't actually don't necessarily. There's a lot of great reviewers, don't get me wrong, but there's a lot of people who don't necessarily know what they're talking about. And that same, that same reviewer who told me that that was Purple Prose, said that there were all these inconsistencies in the book and said this one thing was that her hair color changed. It was the only one they pointed out that her hair color changed, that she had auburn hair. And then another scene she had blue, black hair. And I'm like, looking at the scene that they're talking about, and the reason was is because there were no lights. They were in the dark, in place, with only a blue light shining above, and I'm like it's right there.
Speaker 1:I'm just impressed with someone's like of a whole book to actually remember those two things. That's somewhat impressive if used for good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. But then the thing was is, if they were actually paying attention, they'd know that the lighting was different and there was a reason why her hair looked black.
Speaker 1:I just, you know, I used to go and when someone would write a really bad review of one of my books, I would click on their other reviews, just for joy.
Speaker 1:And they were always bad. Yeah, I mean truly like 10 out of 10. And it wasn't just books, you know, they bought a Stairmaster and that sucked, because you know it was just crazy. Making Marketing you brought up marketing a little bit before and one of the things that you're doing on your Instagram that I think is so fun because authors are, you know, we're always trying to find, like, what's a creative way that I can talk about books without always talking about my book and not being like everybody else, but also not dancing on TikTok. This is something I swear I will never do.
Speaker 1:And you have this. It's called oh, prove Me Wrong, prove Me Wrong. And you have part one, two and three and you're like, as a romance author and also a romance reader, there are some tropes that I just don't really like. And then you write that For some reason, it made me crack up. You just write on the little white. It's not even a whiteboard, it's a flip chart. You know? Yeah, yeah, right, um, what the second one was intra romance, or um one's Insta romance, yeah, Insta romance.
Speaker 2:Uh uh, second chance romance that one got me. I thought that was.
Speaker 1:that was so funny, oh God.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and that's the funny thing. The third one was bullies, like some people and like the thing is is that about Instagram?
Speaker 2:when you're trying to find these creative ways, you're never really sure what hits and what doesn't because it does get really tiring of like, buy my book, buy my book book like you kind of got get sick of it and you understand why other people get sick of it too and and it's funny how things work in different places. So those that series which I'll uh, like I've been getting some good feedback about on Instagram, I'll do more. It didn't do well on TikTok at all, but this other series, yeah, this other series I did on TikTok, which is just like me typing on a on a on a laptop and saying unpopular opinion.
Speaker 1:I saw that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and those went crazy over on TikTok because they're fast, you know, they're kind of dry and snarky and that's like they're just little obvious things that bug you about being a writer, and so it's. It was interesting to see how the different platforms responded.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you like being on both platforms? Have you been on both platforms for a period of time or?
Speaker 2:Here's another thing that I'm a baby at is that I have not been on social media since social media began. I'm not that person at all.
Speaker 2:I have a Facebook page. I had 10 Instagram things that happened over 10 years. I just was not into it and when the book started coming out, I was like I got to get into it because this is just a thing. Now I'm very pleased that I got into it, because I found out a lot of different perspectives and, you know, having conversations with people, but it's really hard to figure out how to market yourself in a way that's not annoying or repetitive, and it's a lot of work.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of work and it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work and I think it has to for me for me, it has to feel somewhat fun most of the time or I'm going to quit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I have met some of the most incredible people. I'm primarily on Instagram and I have connected with some just remarkable people who have become great friends and and like we could go on vacation together. And I'm not even sure what their real name is, because their handle is, you know, I don't know what. I can't think of something right now, and that's what I call them Right Cause I. It's crazy.
Speaker 1:It's like when your kids are really little and you go to drop them off at preschool and you know all the other moms by their first name, or like I'm going on vacation with Carla's mom I don't know her name, but it's Carla's mom we're going away together. At the same time, social media can become well addictive, for sure, I definitely have a problem and it can also become really negative, you know, and it can become where people are like you have to do these things, you have to post six times a day, you have to have a reel, a carousel, a post, a video, you have to dance and make sure you're controversial. I just got tired just saying all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's so exhausting and some people are really good at it and I do notice there's a lot of like I don't know, I don't know if this is a thing you say, but like pickaxe type people out there. So you know, like, okay, so the gold rush in California, everybody was going to California to make their millions from gold, right, but the real people who made all the money were the people who sold pickaxes. So they, because people had to buy the pickaxe to mine the gold, so I call them like the pickaxe people. So all the people who are like you know, pay me for my thing to to boost your thing in TikTok or like, so you can become a creator, and I I don't. I think those people are valuable, for sure, because I certainly contacted a few of them so that I could understand social media. Yeah, but that's sort of I think who are the people who are making the money now is the. It's the people who are trying to teach other people how to make money.
Speaker 1:How to make money. Right, like it's the weird cyclical thing of I'm going to teach you how to make money, but if you stop buying my thing on how to make money, I no longer make money, so I can't teach you how to teach you how to. It's weird, yeah, it's a weird space, yeah, but to spend all day. It's understandable to me why some people, their entire career is predicated on understanding what and I'm putting air quotes around works because it's different. I mean, really the best way I found to figure out what works is to just keep posting stuff, because it shifts all the time it feels like, and so it's like. I just realized this morning I haven't posted in days and okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the thing. I just got out of a writing deadline and I didn't post for three or four days and I was like I just couldn't. I didn't have the emotional capacity to do it, and that's the one thing that I think really does work is when you're authentic. When you're authentic on there, then that's what works. Because it works for you too, Even if it doesn't get a bunch of hits. It works for you because you feel good about it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and if you just get on and make a quick connection or congratulate someone else on their book launch or whatever, it sometimes serves as a little bit of a pick-me-up for me anyway, yeah, like how I feel about it. So what are you working on now? Next book?
Speaker 2:So next book I've got. Someone gave me some good advice about writing the beginning, the beginning of a series, uh, and sending it into traditional publishing because it does take so long to kind of go through the process, yeah. So, um, I started writing a totally different series at the same time and I just finished that and sent that off to my agent. Um, it's more of a spec fic kind of place. But then I also started a book proposal in the beginnings of the second book for Love Camera Action, which is based on the actors this time. So the actors are.
Speaker 2:You know, in Love Camera Action the actors don't like each other. Actually, just one doesn't like the other. The other one's in love with her. Yeah, and it's kind of an opposites attract story because she's very a thoughtful actress, very interested in her craft, went to Yale like, worked her butt off to be where she is.
Speaker 2:And he is this super beautiful man who was cast because he looked the part and was talent scouted in a model shoot and doesn't know a thing about acting, thing about acting, and so, as a result, he is terrified about what he's doing, because it's hard being on a set when you don't know what you're doing, because it's so clear that there's so much money being spent around you and if you're the one that's stopping the process then your anxiety ratchets up. So he deals with that by being arrogant and macho and inappropriate and so she hates him even more because he's kind of a jerk, absolutely. But in the second book he has to learn how to let go of that and be the sweet, sensitive, heartfelt guy that he actually is and get rid of all that stuff and she has to kind of deal with. Maybe she needs to chill out a bit she needs to relax.
Speaker 2:So you're working on both of those at the same time, Well the second book, the other series is out to my agent, okay, it's out. And then I do have this book proposal that I sent into my publisher to see if they want it. But if they do want it, great, and if they don't, then I do have this book proposal that I sent in to my publisher to see if they want it. But if they do want it, great, and if they don't, then I'll just publish it traditionally.
Speaker 1:Okay, you mean self Self-publishing?
Speaker 2:yes, no, yes, I meant indie, sorry, indie.
Speaker 1:Either way. So, speaking of words or vocabulary that we all intermix, how do you describe speculative? Fiction is a term that is so intriguing to me, because people define it very differently. How do you define it?
Speaker 2:Do they? I honestly just see it as an umbrella term for anything that's not about our reality. Right, okay so it's fantasy, it's sci-fi, it's time travel, it's you know, telekinesis, it's superheroes. All that to me Okay, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1:That's actually possibly the best description definition I've heard for me to understand it, because sometimes it's been explained to me almost in like a fantasy way, using too many terms. That's not a genre that I'm heavy into. My daughter, my oldest daughter, had me read A Court of Thorn and Roses or ACOTAR. If you're in this ACOTAR and I couldn't, it was really good and I thought maybe I do like this kind of thing, but I haven't gone past that yet. I I'm thinking of picking up a couple more and seeing you know how I like it?
Speaker 2:Well, it's totally like fantasy. Romanticy right now is just like bonkers. It's gone through the roof.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the other thing I noticed, which is really interesting because it's more in the indie world, is dark romance. That has really exploded as well. It has, yes, and I find that very interesting yeah.
Speaker 1:I find it Well, you don't have to think too hard. I don't have to think too hard to have an idea for why dark romance and speculative like fantasy is doing well, because we all would like to be somewhere else.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, I think we will be somewhere else somewhere without daylight savings time?
Speaker 1:um so the last question I always ask is what? What are you reading now? Or what have you read recently that you just loved?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I went through. I just finished a big T Kingfisher phase, which is another romanticist author. She also did a lot of kids books under Ursula. I can't remember what her her real name is Ursula something. And I keep going, gwen, but it's not.
Speaker 1:Ursula Le Guin.
Speaker 2:That's the first thing I thought, and I thought it can't remember what her real name is. Ursula is something and I keep going, gwen, but it's not Ursula Le Guin that's the first thing I thought and I thought it can't be. Ursula Le Guin yeah now she did a bunch of kids books caught like that were dragon, about dragons and hamsters, which were like separate series and she she publishes under T Kingfisher, so she does romanticism but also horror.
Speaker 2:Oh okay, it's really interesting. But then I also I'm in the middle of this book called Scythe, which I think is a YA novel about like the world has become a complete utopia but people have to be killed in order to keep the population down. So there are these people who are Scythes. I think it's a YA, actually, and it was suggested to me by a book talker that I follow.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you that is. The one thing, though, about social media with books that it gives me anxiety is there are just it's a reminder of how many there are. Yeah, yeah yeah, just there's so many.
Speaker 2:It's a beautiful thing and it's like, oh man, well, and books have really exploded, which is so interesting to me, like at the same time, like my industry, the TV film industry is very much on the decline at the moment and it's, you know, like I've been in the industry enough to see when indie film was the thing, and then the golden age of television, and then reality tv, and now everything has kind of very much like it's protracting and everything's social media and it's this very fast media as we know, like medium and um, but then on the other side, as social media has risen, so have books. Yeah, and I find that I'm like, is that just a reaction to social media, where you want to slow things down and you want to have your own very controlled environment within your own imagination? I don't know, what do you think? Great thought.
Speaker 1:I think for me that very well may be what it is Way to have some insight, noelle today into me. That was very enlightening Because really it's like I like to just sit down with the book and I like to do it with the book so no notifications are popping up, because if I read on a digital device it's usually my iPad and I've turned off notifications now. But I just I like feeling like I'm in a cabin in the woods with no daylight savings time and no electricity and no social media. That is really fun for a few hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and people are really interested in hard in in the, in the tactile book too, like it's not e-readers, it's like and no shade on however you read I do find that, which is weird on BookTok or Bookstagram, that people have very hard opinions about audiobooks or e-readers and I'm like, however you're consuming, the book is great.
Speaker 1:That's how I feel, because everybody consumes information in a different way and we don't know why someone and it doesn't matter, right, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter If you're consuming the information, you're consuming the story. You're being entertained by it. Why, why does it matter?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting and someone pointed out that it's actually quite ableist to say that audio books are not good, because I've got my, like my, I've got my nephew and my stepson. Both have issues reading and they want to listen to audio books. But there's a shame about audio books, which is so weird to me it really is.
Speaker 1:I know several people who read, especially when they're reading something not educational but or not, I'm sorry, not entertainment, but educational where it they do really well to read the book and listen at the same time. There's some scientific reason why that allows them to retain the information better. So I think it's so unfortunate that people will suggest that if you re, if you listen, if you read air quotes via an audio, you're not really a reader. Yeah, I think that's ridiculous.
Speaker 2:I hate that I hate that and there's so many like audio books are also going through the roof with, like, big actors doing arts and, you know, big productions, and I think that's really cool, like that's very cool that we're going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, I mean just let, let's just have something grow here, yeah, yeah yeah, yes anything please well, thank you. I will put all of the links to everything in the show notes and I'm so excited for next week, so so seven days counting down love camera action and thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 2:This was very fun. It was very You're so welcome.
Speaker 1:I hope you'll come back and we can talk about what happened later.
Speaker 2:It'll be like Andy Cohen.
Speaker 1:What do they call? What is Andy Cohen's show called? Watch what Happens Live. Oh, I don't know that I'm gonna I mean we live. Oh, I don't know. I mean we won't be live. But it can kind of be like a watch what happens live, like watch what happened, not live with.
Speaker 2:No, yeah yeah, oh, what are you reading right now?
Speaker 1:oh, what a great question how long is the day? Okay, so, um, I'm currently reading I just started melissa de la cruz's most recent novel, when stars align. When stars align yeah, very, very good. And I'm reading several manuscripts that I'm editing, so there's always that. And, uh, I just finished one, though that I really well moms like us by Jordan Roeder. I don't think it's out yet. Oh, my god, it's hilarious. It's okay, so good. It's LA moms and it's like a whole big little lies meets bad sisters or something. It's just fabulous. Okay, good, put that on your list for sure it is down.
Speaker 2:I have written it down. It's a good one, it's a good one. Cool. Has no one ever asked you what you're reading?
Speaker 1:No one has ever asked me what I'm reading.
Speaker 2:That is a crime.
Speaker 1:Which is probably good, because it's like a stack and it's not nothing's related, nothing has to do. It makes no sense. It probably says something about me, like I think you can learn a lot about somebody by asking them what are you reading? Even if they say nothing, you've just learned something. Yes, exactly, Not bad or good just something.
Speaker 2:I think your pile probably means you're a very smart, talented person.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. That's what it says. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message, but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.
