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Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing. Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
Ep 119: Inside Hybrid Publishing with Naren Aryal
Click Here to ask your book writing and publishing questions!
You’ve probably heard the phrase “your book is your business card.” While it sounds cute for a Canva graphic, it totally downplays the blood, sweat, and editing tears that go into creating a book that actually matters. We’re not here for books that gather dust—we’re here for books that make an impact (and, at the very least, pay for lunch).
If you’re dreaming of launching a book that does more than take up space in your trunk, this episode with Naren Aryal, CEO and publisher of Amplify Publishing Group, is for you!
Inside this episode:
📚 Why the “book as a business card” mindset can actually cost you more than it helps
💸 What most authors really need in order to turn a profit (hint: it’s more than just book sales)
🤖 How AI can be a brilliant assistant for your research and marketing; but no, it can’t tell your story for you
🛒 What you need to know about Amazon ads (yes, they work, but only when you know your niche)
💃 The truth nobody wants to hear: If you want your book to sell, you have to show up, regardless of how you published it
Awesome Email Templates for Authors
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From cover design to interior formatting to ISBN registration and properly loading your book to distributors, whether you need help with parts of the process or the whole darn thing, I’ve got you covered.
Visit www.publishaprofitablebook.com/self-publishing-services to learn more.
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Write the Damn Book Already is a weekly podcast featuring interviews with authors as well as updates and insights on writing craft and the publishing industry.
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Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory, if you're anything like me. In short, I love books and I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most impactful ways we connect with one another. A few things I don't believe in Gimmicks, magic bullets and swoon-worthy results without context, as in be sure to reveal that a result took eight years or required a $30,000 investment in ads, because those details are just as important. What I believe in most as an author, the long game is the shortcut For more book writing and publishing tips and solutions. Visit publishaprofitablebookcom or visit me over on Instagram at ElizabethLionsAuthor. Hi everybody and welcome.
Speaker 1:It's not super often that I talk to people in the publishing space. I've talked with Kathleen Schmidt, who's a publicist, and, of course, jen Hanson-Depaula, who does author marketing, and in a couple of weeks I am so excited to be talking with Jane Friedman, who I've been following for years and years, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't just a little bit nervous when I was contacted several months ago about speaking with Naren Ariel, who's the CEO and publisher of Amplify Publishing Group, which is a very well-known hybrid publisher, and they have a really strong reputation. The reason I was nervous is because I didn't know if Naren and I were going to agree on certain things and, for the record, I have no problem whatsoever not agreeing with somebody. I have had Drew Linsalata, my dear friend, on multiple times talking about audiobooks and different things, and Drew and I tend to respectfully disagree on some things. I mean, like when we really agree, we really agree, and when we don't have the same experience, we really don't have the same experience, but we have a lot of fun with it and we love each other no matter what and respect each other and all of that. And this was my first time meeting Naren and so I thought, you know, I don't, I don't know how this is going to go so pleasantly surprised. And I love it so much when I'm so pleasantly surprised because, for one thing, we've had very similar experiences. We have similar perspectives on the industry, which does not necessarily mean that I'm right or he's or we're both. There are a lot of people who might say we're both wrong.
Speaker 1:But it was such a lovely conversation talking about what Amplify Publishing Group is looking for and doing in the space and how important it is to them as a hybrid publisher and as a high level hybrid publisher. So if you were following along many moons ago, you know I was a little bit torn to shreds by a certain someone on Threads who is now being torn to shreds by his life choices and, yes, there is a little bit of interesting karma there. But the short end of it was a lot of people came out and said that what I was doing as a writing coach or as a ghostwriter or as a publishing services provider was highly unethical and all these things. And of course, I knew that it wasn't and things were being taken out of context and it was a whole big mess. The fact of the matter is there are a lot of what I refer to as vanity publishers who are very much taking advantage of unsuspecting new authors, and Amplify Publishing Group is not one of them. They have a lovely, lovely team. They believe wholeheartedly in the authors that they work with, they set expectations appropriately and accordingly.
Speaker 1:And, the cherry on top, as it turned out, nairn and I see a lot of things the same way, which, again, it's not about being right. It's sort of about feeling like I haven't lost my mind and in this age and stage of perimenopause, which you all know that I am in, I like to not feel like I'm losing my mind. That's a real gift every day to not feel like I'm losing my mind. So we talked about the study that Amplify Publishing Group did, along with several other outlets last year, on the ROI of, specifically, the nonfiction book. So we really are talking about leadership, thought leadership, business leadership, self-help, personal growth, that sort of thing and what's really needed in that space in order to make the kind of impact that the authors with whom Amplify Publishing Group and I desire to work are looking to make.
Speaker 1:All of the notes and the links to everything that we talked about are in the episode notes. I'm extremely grateful to have had this conversation with Naren. I know you're going to love it, so let's just get right on into the conversation. I know you're going to love it, so let's just get right on into the conversation. This was fun because I think we've had a similar start. Our journeys have been different, but I think you and I had a bit of a similar start because your first children's book, right, came out in 2003.
Speaker 1:That's right, and did sort of unexpectedly well, yes, yes, that's right. And then my first book, which was for parents of newborn twins, so a children's book of a different sort.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Came out in 2004. And same thing sort of did unexpectedly well, self-published, and you and I both kind of started getting asked by I'm not trying to tell your story, this is just what I've heard, so tell me if I'm wrong but started kind of getting asked by. I'm not trying to tell your story, this is just what I've heard, so tell me if I'm wrong, but started kind of getting asked by other people. Hey, will you help me with this? Because you figured out, not the magic code, but you know, you know how to navigate this, seemingly, and I've gone in one direction and you've gone on to form this renowned hybrid publishing house, amplify.
Speaker 1:And I'm so curious to get your take. I know you guys did this whole study last year on the ROI around business and leadership books and that's kind of where I started when.
Speaker 1:I started working with other authors about seven. I haven't been in the publishing space as long as you have. I probably started about seven years ago helping other people publish, and it was predominantly business and thought leadership books then. Now in my world it's segued. I still do those, but I do a lot more fiction and memoir and creative nonfiction as well, and so I'm excited to have this conversation specifically about the leadership and the business-centered books and what the thoughts are. I mean what you're seeing in terms of how that's maybe shifted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it is awesome to have this conversation with you and to know that we started about the same time with a similar path. We're connected here, aren't we?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like we are Okay excellent, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so you know, I entered into this world of publishing knowing, when I say zero, I think that's being generous, it's less than zero. I'm a lawyer, I'm a business guy. I'm not an author. I'm now a publisher, but I wasn't. I didn't know anything about books and so I just did this as a hobby. Published a children's book, got a license from the university, was for my daughter. It was supposed to be just a fun little side project before I got back into the drudgery of the legal world.
Speaker 2:And what we found is there was a real opportunity at the intersection of licensed sports products and children's literature that nobody had given a second thought to, and it probably because it wasn't big enough in their eyes. The large houses aren't gonna care about. 5,000 book sales here, 10,000 here, right. And so we just found this opportunity and went all in and along the way, after doing 350 books starring college mascots and professional sports team mascots, what we learned is like wow, there are a lot of parents and grandparents that want to share their love with their children. Uh, or fan, fan experience, and. And so that's how we got our start. And then, soon after, as you mentioned, people started asking us for help with their children's books, and by that time that was something I knew quite a bit about, and um, and, and so you know we were doing. Uh, I guess it was the early days of a hybrid.
Speaker 1:It wasn't even called hybrid then, right, and so no, correct, yeah, yeah, and and even still, there's, like some, everyone, it's not. There's not a common understanding of what hybrid is, so it's. It can get tricky because there are a lot of different definitions floating around.
Speaker 2:I don't know that it is one specific thing and a lot of different models, and you know I'm not here to say one is better than the other. I am here to say that it's a great time for content creators and there are just a lot of options. Right, that's what I'm here to say. And so, after we'd sort of saturated that market, you know what I really enjoy and what I read are business and thought leadership and self-help, and so you know one of the perks of running your own companies you can decide where to take your business, and that's off in 2018. So we're relatively new to this space. 2018, here we are not quite seven years.
Speaker 2:It hasn't quite been seven years and now we're doing some really meaningful books in the business and thought leadership space and with accomplished authors and their ROI. Speaking of ROI is sure, let's sell as many books as possible, but we're also working with people that value all the other things that come with having a really well-done book enter the market and whether it's being a keynote speaker or providing consulting services or getting media coverage for what you're doing or bringing visibility to your company. I mean, there's just a host of reasons and that's why I love this space, because we can make decisions from the editorial space actually from the conceptualization period to the editorial, to the distribution, to the marketing that all sort of align with what makes this project successful and delivers an ROI. That was a long answer, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:No, it was a great answer and I love it. It created about I don't know, seven, maybe nine more questions.
Speaker 2:All right, we got time.
Speaker 1:You know, back in the day as I'll call it so about seven years ago, when I started, you know, helping other people with this kind of thing, there was this phrase, this token phrase, rolling around and the phrase was the writing your book is. It's the new best business card. And it drove me nuts. But I'll tell you why. In theory, I completely agreed with it In concept, or in reality, I struggled with it from the standpoint of doing what I was doing, because I think people were getting the idea If you write it, it's like if you build it, they will come. If I write it, they will come. If I write it and I just get somehow some bestseller status on it, I will make lots of money and people will bring me into Kino.
Speaker 1:This was again in the business and thought leadership space, and so there were a lot. There was a lot of expectation setting. I come from a corporate background as well, and so there was a lot of expectation setting that had to kind of go on when it comes to, or came to how, how it all works. So in today, right 2025, how do you approach that with your authors?
Speaker 1:and and you know, so that they don't just think it's right and they will come.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm with you. I don't like that saying because it diminishes the real work that has to go into writing a book. It's hard.
Speaker 1:It's hard.
Speaker 2:It's hard, I mean on an hourly basis. You're underpaid writing a book and whereas a business card, you know, you go to Kinko's, you design it and bam, you got a business card. So it doesn't do it justice at all. Writing a book is so hard, Publishing a book is so hard, can be expensive, and what I tell people is it's a huge, huge commitment, financial and otherwise. Right. And what I tell people is it's a huge, huge commitment financial and otherwise Right.
Speaker 2:And and then that's even before we get to the point where we got to market it and get the ideas out there, which is you guessed it hard. Yeah, right, it's all hard, and so I don't like that. And so what I tell folks is you know, the book has got to be really good, like the words, the ideas. At the end of the day, that's what you're selling, right? And so we can put some nice packaging around it and talk about matte jackets and gloss, spot gloss and and all that. Those are all sort of cherries on the top. But, like the words have got to be really good for for it to do the things that you want it to do in the marketplace have got to be really good for it to do the things that you want it to do in the marketplace.
Speaker 1:And how do you determine I mean, it's so subjective, right what you think is a great book somebody else doesn't like. What someone else doesn't like you think is the best thing you've ever read? So, from a professional standpoint, how do you best determine with a prospective author whether or not it makes sense for them to make the investment? I think it's always so interesting on the traditional side. It almost feels to many people and I'm also agnostic Traditional works great for many people, self works great for many people. So understand what you're going into and why and then go all in. But when someone is making a personal investment, I don't know. Do you ever feel like people don't look at it in the same way that they look at making an investment in their business?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:And how I deal with.
Speaker 2:That is, you know, most of the people we work with are are experts in their field, whatever their field may be right, and, and so, in addition to writing a really good book, they've got goals for this book. It's got to have an roi in. You know, however, they monetize their, their business, right, and so, um, it's, it could be the best book in the world, but if there's no vision for how to monetize it, it's probably not right for us because, at the end of the day, uh, the author, unless you know they're, they're writing a fantasy, fiction, fantasy that they've always dreamed of, and they don't care, uh, who reads it. You know, there's some real value in that as well, and utility for the author, um, but that's not the space that we primarily play in.
Speaker 2:And so just want to make sure that they've got a clear idea of who's going to care. If you think everyone's going to care, nobody cares, and then and right to that person that's going to care, and there's in, that person that's going to care is hopefully a part of a group of many people that are going to care Many respect, you know, not a huge, massive number, but like the niche is big enough for this to work out. And then, if those factors are there and they are invested in, you know, doing the little things that sometimes aren't little small things, like you know editing. If you need a writing coach, you know some people are better suited working with the ghostwriter right, Like having honest, objective conversations with yourself and being committed to creating a great book that's going to deliver value to the reader then it makes sense to make the investment.
Speaker 1:Then it makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it is a big investment.
Speaker 1:I mean, if nothing else, with your time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which has value, because we're just. I've been saying for years I don't. I've never met anyone who whipped out a great book in 72 hours.
Speaker 2:No, but although on speed I get these ads that say I can do it in a weekend.
Speaker 1:It makes me want to just it makes me crazy weekend. It makes me want to just it makes me crazy. I, I gotta like get over it. There's a book out there, shirley, that can coach me on how to get over it. But what do you think?
Speaker 2:There's gotta be one written.
Speaker 1:What is, um one of the biggest misconceptions that you hear when people initially reach out. I think it's interesting that there's the pool of people who come out of the process, just like there's the pool of people who successfully open a restaurant or a healthcare thing right, and you hear that. But we don't hear as much about the people who think they want to do it and then change their minds when they realize that they have a big misconception about what the space requires to have air quote success. What are some of the biggest that you hear still today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll go back to target market. Not having a real clarity on who the target market is. I think that's a big problem and we try to have real conversations around it and I think there's also some folks that just underestimate, again, the work involved. You know you're running a marathon to write the book and then you get to the finish line and it's written and you're exhausted and then you've got this marketing and launch coming up after that.
Speaker 1:And so cause you're only really at mile 13. Yeah, you think you're at mile 26? You're not you're not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I think I think those are the, those are the two big ones, um, and then again, really having clarity, uh, in terms of the why. Why are we doing this Right? Why? And those are the things that you have to consider, and sometimes it doesn't make sense to do it, frankly, when?
Speaker 1:So tell me when you kind of counsel people. This may not make sense.
Speaker 2:If they're not willing to get the help on the editorial side and they're at risk of producing a book that is substandard and actually is going to do their brand harm if it goes out that way Number one yeah, that's a big one. Or if there's no. Particularly within the thought leadership crowd that we work with, there's no real plan to how to monetize this, and most people we work with aren't just counting on book sales, right. Most people we work with aren't just counting on book sales, right, and so that's where I get a little worried is when the entire ROI is dependent on book sales. Right, you want to be able to have a positive ROI if there are four or five ways you can monetize a book, and that's most of the people that we work with.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the more creative things that you're seeing? I mean keynotes and book sales and partnerships. Is there anything that's kind of somewhat new or newer that? You're seeing in that space, specifically Because it's so much different from fiction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. What I say about fiction is the ceiling is quite high for fiction.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But the floor is below the ground. Yes, right, and so people just get fixated on the quite high, um, it could be millions of copies, but it could be ones and twos as well. Yeah, um, and so in terms of like, uh, monetization, I don't know if there's anything new under the sun. You know, we a lot of keynote speakers, right, it's. Speakers are authors, authors are speakers. We've seen this is funny. So we'll see a lot of consultants that write about whatever they're providing consulting for seminars, coaching. We had a note not too long ago that said and this, this author wrote a book and it's a beautiful book, and he's, he got back to me and said hey, I want you to know, this book helped me sell my company. I was like what? And he told me that, uh, that, uh, the potential acquirer of his company read his book, and that's how they first made contact. So you know, I don't know that you can count on that, but every once in a while you'll hear that.
Speaker 1:That's the thing too. I haven't the very first author I ever worked with, the one who reached out and said, will you help me? And I thought what I mean. Truly, the first person I ever helped had the exact same thing happen, where someone ordered his book off of Amazon and wanted him to basically come run his company off of Amazon. And wanted him to basically come run his company. It was a multi-seven figure offer. He didn't end up taking it for a variety of reasons, but again, you can't count on it. But what an interesting when you really put everything into the book that you possibly can. I mean, if you're just writing like a basic, so somewhat controversial. How do you feel about AI? I know everyone's getting so tired of this question, but I got some real feelings.
Speaker 2:You'll be surprised to know. But Okay, let's go. One point about the last thing we're talking about. Doors will open up. If you do a book the right way and it's in your area of expertise, you will meet people and opportunities will become available. That is like a universal truth on hundreds of books that we've done period.
Speaker 1:As long as you're willing to put it out there in some way, shape or form. Yeah, exactly, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:AI. So we are pitched AI editorial tools on a weekly basis and my personal feeling is it is a great tool for research, it is a great tool for marketing copy, it is a great tool for proofreading but, based on what I've seen so far, it's not going to replace the author writing about her area of expertise, including her case studies that she knows about, talking about her feelings as she's going through something and her anecdotes and what's in her heart, what's in her head, right, it's never going to replace that, and so you know, every once in a while we'll see chapters that are a little too heavily reliant on AI and it is like reading a Wikipedia article and it drives me crazy.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think we're going to be great friends. I was fully prepared for us to not agree on this and I'm totally okay with that. By the way, I love having conversations when people have a difference of opinion. As long as it's done respectfully, I have no problem with that whatsoever. I think this is so interesting, however, because recently I'd say within the last six months I edit as well. I can absolutely tell when an author has shifted from there are some tells, there are just some clear tells beyond just a tone shift and a style shift. So I agree, I have the same experience and feeling and thought as what you said. I I I use it to create my daily schedule.
Speaker 1:Um, I'm a little conflicted right now because my daughter told me over the weekend in great detail how horrible it is for the environment.
Speaker 1:So I feel you know a little. I didn't fully understand that and now I'm kind of like oh gosh, but putting that to the side, cause that's a whole other conversation. I think it's great for research. I think it's great for jogging an author's creativity If they're just really struggling not to come up with what to say but maybe how to say it and again, not to plagiarize that, but to just get them in that space it's. I don't think it's that much different from putting on a certain kind of music that gets you kind of in the zone or going for anything else that kind of gets you in there, right, but I do you think this will just be a blip where people get the idea that they can write a whole book? I'm seeing the ads for it now too. Like I wrote my whole 150 page book over the weekend with AI and I just made three hundred and seventy two billion dollars and, you know, bought a Cybertruck and all these sorts of things.
Speaker 2:Are you seeing that? Yeah, I'm hearing those people say that, but I'm not actually seeing that.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:I'm not seeing that. I hear those whispers but, like someone, show me those. There's just no, there's no substitute to putting in the work.
Speaker 1:There's, there's just not.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, believe me, I do. I don't even know if I wish there were, but there are certain days, certainly, when I wish there were. No one wants to. But here's the thing that I think is interesting, especially in the space in which you operate, is that the thought leaders and the business leaders and the self-help professionals who go out and have built a career on the knowledge and the experience that they now have. It wasn't easy, and people are, and people know getting my PhD isn't going to be easy, starting a restaurant is not going to be easy, but for some reason there's still this kind of thought that like, oh, but I can just whip out a book.
Speaker 2:It doesn't happen, it doesn't.
Speaker 1:It's one of the greatest things I work to kind of dispel is that it's still a book, yeah, a book, yes, but not a, not a good book. Yeah, Bingo. So what do you feel most excited about in the? Do you consider hybrid indie?
Speaker 2:Um boy, these definitions sort of run together. Um, I, I don't necessarily um, but maybe you know, when I think of indie, I think of, maybe, a small traditional house. Um, maybe that's, maybe that's wrong. Um, uh, hybrid. You know, I think the ibpa has a list of criteria for hybrid that, uh, that you know are pretty comprehensive and and the main thing, and we're very straightforward and transparent about it uh, the hybrid model means authors help fund the creation, help fund the services that are going into creating a book. We're providing distribution, we're providing marketing and in exchange for that, the author owns intellectual property. All of it has full and final creative control, but we hope they'll rely on our expertise along the way and they'll get higher royalties as a result. So, like you know, those are the things that are the top of the list that I that I think of when I think of hybrid.
Speaker 1:And are you guiding them when it comes to marketing and or relying on them to do the heavy lifting and or relying on them to do the heavy lifting, or I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions. Whether it's a traditional house or a hybrid house is well. I want to go with that, because they're going to do all my marketing for me. How do you all approach that?
Speaker 2:So pretty honest. There too, author must be engaged in the marketing of his book period. It doesn't work otherwise, and that's whether you're published by Simon Schuster, by Amplify or Amazon, kdp, right, it's just author must be engaged. And so we do have a team of book marketers and we focus on launching thought leadership titles and we put together a. We have a program it's a five month program to launch a book, and you know we do good work.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we get we get media placement that we say wow too, and we've had our authors that you know all the big, you know morning shows and evening shows, and sometimes the books that you think that are going to get a lot of traction and coverage sometimes just don't as much as you think. And so we've got a good program and we've delivered good results for a lot of people. I wish we could say that. You know we could guarantee it for everybody that we work with. But you still need somebody on the other end to say, yes, I want to give this book coverage on my podcast or my TV show, and you know there are a hundred things that an author should be thinking about trying when it comes to launching their book, and on the front end. You don't know which 20 of those hundred are actually going to work, but it's important to try all hundred.
Speaker 1:And when it comes to bookstores, are you finding that, in the space that you're in, a lot of your authors are doing more bulk sales, or are they relying on the one-off sales from whether it's Amazon or a bookshop or an actual physical store?
Speaker 2:So I think that in our space, in the thought leadership and business spaces just the way the world is 70% of books are going to be sold on Amazon. I hate it, I don't like it, but it's just the way it is. And these folks also have the opportunity to sell in bulk, because they're speaking as part of their speaking arrangements and they also can sell direct to consumer as well, and so it's usually a mix of Amazon, independence, bulk. That's what we're seeing.
Speaker 1:And what are you seeing with e-books and audio books in those areas specifically? Of thought leadership.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that any prediction of the physical book not being as important didn't turn out to be accurate, because people still love the physical form and I think that what I've seen is, as the book grows in popularity, the percentage of eBooks will rise and the percentage of audio books will rise, because these folks don't necessarily have a connection to the author Anyone with a connection with the author. They want that physical book, and so you know it's. It's not uncommon for us to sell 50% physical book and a 25% ebook and 25% audio book for a given title.
Speaker 1:And that makes me happy. It's a great entry point. I find the ebook because you can. It's harder to put a physical book on sale right, because it eats into your profit margin, especially if you're selling through another distributor or through a retailer. But the ebook, and sometimes even the audio book, are easier for an author to sell direct to consumer, right off their website or you know. In any event there's no print fee.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you kind of remove that from the equation.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. And you know different um different ways forward. Uh, makes sense for different authors, right, and and so, like we work with people all over the globe and for them a print on demand approaches is, is just makes more sense.
Speaker 1:Right, Trying to you know, do you do a mix?
Speaker 2:Yeah, is it print?
Speaker 1:on demand and you have a print run as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I would say most of our um authors demand physical books. Um, so that's where you know the vast majority of our work is and hope we are flexible in that. Uh, on occasion we'll do print on demand. We'll also switch from hardcover to paperback and subsequent runs. So it's a mix. Really, what is best for the project?
Speaker 1:What makes the most sense for that particular product.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:You know what are you most excited about talking about right now in the space, what really gets you excited to have a conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, we did do this incredible. Author. Roi survey.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was the first of its kind. We interviewed 300 authors and you know we've talked a lot anecdotally about and we've done it on this podcast about the value of a book, but this was an opportunity to put some real research behind it and we partnered with the folks, with our friends over at Smith Publicity, gotham Ghost Writers and a gentleman named Josh Bernoff who is quite influential in the nonfiction space and he's technically minded and he led the survey, and I should also mention our friends at Thought Leadership Leverage as well, and so we all came together and we said, hey, wouldn't it be great if we actually put the survey together? And what we found sort of really confirmed a lot of the anecdotal data that are the anecdotal thoughts that we've all been talking about in terms of you know why a book makes sense and when it makes sense, and so I'm super excited about talking about that.
Speaker 1:That's one thing. And then these conversations. I could talk all day long. I know Right what. What came back from that? I think I, if I read it correctly, it was like a dollar twenty four on average return. Is that correct? For every dollar spent?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And so what we did is we tried to separate, you know, the self-published authors versus the hybrid published authors and the traditionally published authors, and so we came up with some real data for that were applicable for each, and what we found is, of course, there's no right or wrong answer. That wasn't the point here. Right, there's some strengths in some areas where one was stronger than the other, but also there was a trade-off between, you know, obviously, a hybrid. You can spend a lot of money, so you'd expect that you're going to have a better return. The self-publishing is relatively low cost, and so what we found is the return was commensurate with a low cost, right? And so, again, no, you know, I'm not favoring one side over the other.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:But that's. Those are some of the really interesting things, and so anyone listening here they should go to. Author ROIcom. Download the download the survey for free.
Speaker 1:I'll put a link in the episode notes because it's pretty interesting.
Speaker 2:What was there? Any result that really surprised you? Traditional published publishing deals, right, no advances. And then, on top of that, there was an expectation of an author buyback if the book didn't sell X number of copies. Yes, so you know, in these situations the authors would be, you know, maybe worse off financially than had they just gone with a hybrid or done it themselves. And so the number of author traditionally published authors deals with zero advance was something like 30, 35% in our survey, which is representative of what's going on right now, so that surprised me.
Speaker 1:Well, I a couple of things have surprised me. One is that the advances are going down and I this is certainly not across the board. I mean it is across the board, but I'm not Jen Iize. But one of the things that I think I've heard a couple of authors say who are traditionally published is they don't mind that because it allows them to A earn out, which is always the mark of air quotes, success in the traditional world, and then B they might have more royalties coming to them down the line, as opposed to feeling this pressure to earn out a six-figure advance within the first six to eight weeks, which can feel very challenging.
Speaker 1:But I've heard the same that you've heard where and I've seen it happen to a couple of people they've invested in the or it's a traditional deal in the sense that they didn't make an investment but they were to split the royalties, say 50-50 or 60-40. And then it was like oh, but if you don't sell 3,000 copies by such and such a date, not just via a retailer but via the publisher's website specifically, that's where they had to sell and no one wanted to buy there because it was full price, as opposed to Amazon where they were getting some sort of a discount and free shipping. So then they get a bill for $15,000 or $20,000. And all of a sudden, what was once free?
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, I've heard those stories as well. So, and then some of the other issues that I'm talking about and hearing a lot of is, uh, you know, frustration with Amazon, um, uh, small publishers and authors, you know just not uh having visibility on on sales, and, um, you know, uh, them taking a huge amount in terms of wholesale fees. Uh, you know, going down and it's just, it's it's difficult, amazon's difficult.
Speaker 1:Do you all, do any of your authors, ever run ads on Amazon, or do you guys participate that in that at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do as a strategy. What's?
Speaker 1:your experience with that?
Speaker 2:For um, you know what it's. It's actually one thing on that platform that I really like, uh, because you can tweak the ad, spend you can tweak the keywords and they'll give you metrics. That says you know what, for every dollar you spend, we can show you you got $1.50 back. And whereas social media ads the metrics aren't as solid, because you can spend $100 on Facebook ads and not really know the ROI on actual booksellers Amazon, you do.
Speaker 1:Well, there are two things, though, that are complicated. One is that they report your sales, which is not the same as your profit.
Speaker 1:So, your A cost, your average cost of spend, is actually not a great reflection necessarily of your profit margin, because it doesn't take into account what your print cost is and the amount that Amazon is taking. But here's the other thing that I've noticed there and that I think is in crazy is that Amazon under reports seemingly, um, and this is to their detriment your sales based on ads. So I had with my last book I didn't, I think I had like one sale, my most book. I had sold one in the month before I started running ads.
Speaker 1:And the month I ran ads. I sold 84. But according to Amazon's reporting, I had only sold like 38. And there was nothing else that I could point to in terms of why would this book now be moving. I wasn't running meta ads, I wasn't promoting via ads, I wasn't promoting via social media, nothing. The only thing I was doing differently was running those Amazon ads. I love Amazon ads, for the record, because they're super low cost. And I was just curious. You know, you do start to feel a bit like a needle in a haystack and I think that in that genre thought leadership you're really in, I mean, in the entrepreneurial category. Some of the suggested keywords are like $6 a click, so I would be losing three hours, you know.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right, and but the thing also about Amazon AdWords is you can bet on keywords related to your book, but also comp titles.
Speaker 1:There you go, so so you got two swings there. And do you find that that's important for your authors to know? Okay, what lane is my book in Like? If you liked this, you will like my book. Is that an important?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah for sure. And and particularly if you're in this seemingly obscure lane, like I was talking to somebody today who's got a book on procurement right, and like it sounds like a yawner, right, but procurement is a big deal across a lot of companies, right. And so I went on Amazon and this is before our conversation and I looked at all the books on procurement. I was like there's not a damn book that's worth anything on procurement. I was like this is an opportunity for you.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so like knowing your lane and knowing comp titles, very important and being realistic. Being realistic about your comp titles Like look, atomic Habits is probably not a comp title for you. Let them. Mel Robbins' latest is probably not the right comp for you. Let's be Right.
Speaker 1:Well, and also knowing what keywords your ideal person is searching when they go to Amazon for a book on procurement.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Like you've really got to start to speak the language of your reader. I don't care what genre you've written, you've got to have or gain over time, because sometimes it takes a lot of time to hone this. But like, what are the? I don't even like to use the word buzzword, but what are they? What's in their brain when they're out there and they're looking for a book on procurement?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you got to know the maybe procurement is at the top. You got to know the two or three words underneath procurement Exactly. Those are where you want to put your check, exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, and also, you know Amazon can float their ads outside of the Amazon ecosystem too. So also knowing, for example, what are people searching on Google when they're looking for help with procurement, because I'm telling you, eight times out of 10, if I search for something like I can't even think of anything right now. You know how to survive the day it's going to. The first Google response is going to take me to Amazon.
Speaker 2:That's right. It's a. I mean, like them or not, they're here, Amazon, they are here and they are not.
Speaker 1:They are not going anywhere and it's tough because as a consumer, they're easy to love. I can have something on my doorstep in 45 minutes, but as a business person, we wrestle, I wrestle anyway.
Speaker 2:That's the nicest thing we can say is we wrestle?
Speaker 1:Look, we're trying to be. Yeah, well, thank you. Is there anything else that you want to? You know, get out there about any of this.
Speaker 2:No, I really enjoyed it and, um, you know, I love uh, I've grown to love the world of books, because this is not my, this is not my background, and so, um, I can have these conversations all day long and it's something that I'm passionate about. It's something that my this is not my background, and so I can have these conversations all day long and it's something that I'm passionate about. It's something that my, my team is passionate about, and I, if I could give a plug, I got a great team and so I'm so glad to hear that.
Speaker 1:I mean it's, it's one of the greatest I think like within this space. I don't sometimes it well, a lot of times it reminds me of Hollywood a lot, where behind the curtain we think it's all roses and butterflies and unicorns and all this and it's really not. And so when you can find a segment of it, of the book publishing industry, that's just so. I love the connections and the community and the conversations and the open-minded nature If you can find that and even better, if you can curate it in a team where, when you start hearing about those companies, those are the companies people want to work with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, well, thank you. And and I will say that, uh, as a group, authors are incredibly generous with their time and their advice with other authors because, um, you know, it's kind of lonely going through it and you learn a lot going through it.
Speaker 1:And with their support and the support you know I don't feel like it's as competitive and cutthroat it can be in certain genres and we've all seen that play out. But what I tend to gravitate toward is where there's a lot of generosity of spirit and just pay it backward, pay it forward sideways, you know, and there's a lot of that in this space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so you know was I surprised that 300 authors contributed to this author ROI survey. Big number, but it goes to show you that people really are invested not only in their success, but other people as well.
Speaker 1:And the honesty and the transparency I mean that's the thing that I've loved most about doing this podcast is how willing authors are to be fully transparent, whether they're New York Times bestsellers or just trying to get through chapter one of their very first book.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:There's not a lot of posturing, and at least not around here, so I love that.
Speaker 2:Also, as we said when we started it's, it's a humbling experience, right, and so so, uh, you carry that with with you and uh you want to help those that uh come after you.
Speaker 1:I always ask people last what are you reading now?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I've got a stack of manuscripts right now. That's what I'm reading.
Speaker 1:Okay, fair enough Fair enough. What's what's come out recently from Amplify that you're really excited about? You want to plug one of those, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know what? I will plug one, and it's an unconventional one. So one of our authors, urs Koenig. He wrote a book called Radical Humility and it's a great book. It's a thought leadership book. He's a leadership expert, but what he did after that is what's noteworthy. He took copious notes every step in the publishing process and he wrote an ebook that he's giving away free download about. It's called the Hybrid Publishing Handbook.
Speaker 1:Oh, nice about. It's called the Hybrid.
Speaker 2:Publishing Handbook. Oh nice it is. You know, in the spirit of generosity and helping others, it's maybe 80 page book about hybrid publishing and so if you go to his website, I didn't think I was going to plug his website. But here we go, urs Koenig, u-r-s-k-o-e-n-i-gcom and search for the Hybrid Publishing Handbook. It is his experience as a first time author and what he learned going through the process. It's worth a read.
Speaker 1:And I'll definitely put it in the show notes. And it's free, it's free and it's. And even if it weren't, I think it's so there is no one. This is how it always goes. Yes, so the best thing that that I can do for myself. I know, and I is read a lot of different experiences and I truly going back a little bit to what we said a second ago I love that authors are often willing to say look, this is my experience, so this doesn't mean don't go with this person, or do go, or if you go with this person, you're going to have the same experience I had. It's just, this is my experience. And we need all of those so that people can get the full breadth of what this is all really about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you could have said that, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for creating the time and sharing your experience.
Speaker 2:I've really enjoyed it and let's do it again soon.
Speaker 1:Let's absolutely do it again soon. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message, but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.
