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Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing. Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
Ep 118: Jordan Roter on her Journey From TV Writer to Novelist
Click Here to ask your book writing and publishing questions!
Have you ever sat through a back-to-school night and thought, Wow, this could be a novel? Jordan Roter did—and then she actually wrote it. Moms Like Us (coming May 2025 from Little A) hilariously unpacks the cutthroat social hierarchy of LA moms, complete with all the messy, cringey, and oh-so-relatable moments of motherhood and friendship.
In this laugh-out-loud episode, we chatted about:
🔥 Jordan’s career hops from YA author to TV writer (American Housewife, The Watchful Eye) and back to novel writing.
🔥 The painfully awkward school event that sparked her book idea.
🔥 Why juggling multiple POVs is like hosting a dinner party where everyone wants to talk at once.
🔥 Hollywood vs. publishing: one’s a chaotic circus, the other’s...slightly less chaotic
🔥 Writing the real (sometimes dark, often hilarious) thoughts moms have but rarely admit
🔥 The shift toward "radical truth-telling" in motherhood writing (because perfection is overrated)
🔥 And also...how she ended up with an Amy Poehler blurb
Buckle up, because this episode is a good one.
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Write the Damn Book Already is a weekly podcast featuring interviews with authors as well as updates and insights on writing craft and the publishing industry.
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Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory, if you're anything like me. In short, I love books and I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most impactful ways we connect with one another. A few things I don't believe in Gimmicks, magic bullets and swoon-worthy results without context, as in be sure to reveal that a result took eight years or required a $30,000 investment in ads, because those details are just as important. What I believe in most as an author, the long game is the shortcut For more book writing and publishing. Tips and solutions. Visit publishaprofitablebookcom or visit me over on Instagram at Elizabeth Lyons.
Speaker 1:Author. You know people keep and they know who they are, keep telling me certain people in my life, liz, you can't make friends if you don't ever leave your house, and you know I just keep proving them wrong, and this week was no exception. From the minute Jordan Roeder popped up on my screen somehow I just knew this was going to be a person I wasn't going to let out of my world easily. Thankfully, I think she feels the same way, or she faked it really, really well, but we ended up actually staying on the phone or on the Zoom for about an hour after this interview was over. I just feel like I have met a kindred spirit. I just adore her. Her book Moms Like Us comes out on May 6th. She's with Little A, which is an Amazon imprint introduced to me by the fabulous Katie Kurtzman, who does her publicity, and truly, I mean from the minute that our eyes locked. Okay, so she's the origin story of the colonoscopy meet cute. That is now a part of my novel that I think I might be working on until I'm dead. As Neely said last week, I'm currently working through the trauma. That is my first novel and like I can't think of a better way to say it. But at any rate, Jordan pops up on my screen and there's just something so lovely and welcoming and grounding and fun about her I don't know exactly how to put it into words. Clearly the thing is, as a TV writer and an author, just a generally hilarious person.
Speaker 1:This conversation was so enlightening and I just love it so much when people come on. You know, if you listened to several episodes ago I had Michael Jammon on, who's also a TV writer, with Beavis and Butthead and King of the Hill and a whole bunch of other credits to his name and when you can get people who are in different spaces to really speak to not just the joys because of course there are joys and there are fun moments but of being in that space, but also the kind of like oh God, where is this going. I just love that and that's what I've been trying to create now for 117 episodes is like the real real of book publishing. And speaking of the real real of book publishing, get excited because Jane Friedman, who is often referred to as royalty in the book writing space, will be coming on in just a few weeks. So I will have a full plan of attack there, because if I don't, I will keep her for four hours. I mean, she might not like let me do that, but I would try. So I will have a full plan of attack. Jane, if you're listening, have no worries, full plan of attack is in place. This conversation is absolutely incredible.
Speaker 1:So if you've ever wondered about the TV writing life, how to handle it when you get stuck writing, what do you do if you've created a character and now all of a sudden she doesn't fit? Not how do you make her fit, but how do you figure out where she fits, which is exactly what Jordan had to do with her character, dawn, who I'm now mildly obsessed with in Moms Like Us. I read this book every night before I go to bed and I fall asleep reading it, and it's been a long time since that happened. I normally fall asleep in front of New Girl I mean, I think I'm at my 15th or 16th run through of the whole New Girl series. Like it's gotten to the point where I anticipate the lines before they're even being said. It's fabulous, but I normally fall asleep to that. And lately I've been falling asleep to Moms Like Us, but not in a bad way, because I cannot stop reading it until I fall asleep. It's just so good. So I look forward to finishing it this weekend.
Speaker 1:Everything about Jordan and where you can connect with her and pre-order her book, which again comes out in May, is in the episode notes. Let's just get right into the conversation. So, as I've said many times, when I do these conversations, I don't put pressure on myself to read the book before the conversation, because we don't really talk about the book. We talk about the writing process and the publishing process and all those sorts of things typically. Now, that being said, I like to not be completely ignorant to who people are and whatever, and what they've written about, and so a standard practice for me is okay, just read the first chapter. The first time I got into trouble with this was Emma Gray, the Last Love Note. Have you read that one yet? I haven't, but I'm reading her new book, pictures of you, yes. So there I was with Emma's arc a couple of years ago at oh dark 30 at night, reading it, and I was like I'll just read the prologue and I couldn't stop. Like I couldn't stop. Okay, now I have that problem with yours.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's the nicest thing, it's really it's, it's really it's, it's really a problem, jordan. So when Katie messaged me and I love Katie so much, your publicist me too.
Speaker 2:She's great.
Speaker 1:Just a doll. So she and I see the cover and I'm like, okay, that sort of looks like a pickleball situation. Like I can fully relate. I haven't started playing pickleball yet. I think I'm the last one. I can't find anyone to play with, but last night. This is a crazy week, which I know people always say, but it really is and it's only Tuesday. So yesterday was nuts and I crawled into bed at like 10, 15 PM, which is in.
Speaker 2:I don't function after seven.
Speaker 1:I had just looked at your Instagram and about peed my pants over the post about when you find an estrogen patch on the ground and you're not sure if it's yours or that's how you know it's a great like midlife trip with your best friend from childhood.
Speaker 2:It's like don't know whose estrogen patch came off. It's one of ours. Let's check later. I'll check later.
Speaker 1:Check it on my shoe shoe, just like to have because, no for sure, like are you a side note, do you sometimes like yesterday I? I switch my patches on Thursdays and Sundays, and so yesterday I got out of the shower and I thought I don't think I. What day is it like I?
Speaker 2:know, yep, I do it Wednesdays and Saturdays. Because you know why? Because my, my friend, who's my neighbor, who's like my walking buddy, courtney, will probably listen to this. She was doing it that day and I was like I should just do it the same day as her because that way, like, we can remind each other.
Speaker 1:No, it's really like I even have it on my calendar and I still I know I should put it on my calendar. It's a situation.
Speaker 2:Well, it doesn't necessarily help. You want to know something crazy. So of course this is so embarrassing. But one night I had a little too much wine and I think it was it must've been a Wednesday or a Saturday and I like woke up in the middle of the night and I was like I didn't put on another estrogen patch and I was like still like half drunk. So I put on an estrogen patch and like two days go by and I'm going like a little crazy. And then I like looked at myself in the mirror Cause I had two of them on myself in the mirror. I just don't even look anymore. And I looked in the mirror I had two patches on three weeks ago or something.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Time has no meaning. I did the exact same thing. I did the exact same thing, jordan, like I went, I was like. I was like I don't know why I would have been feeling my stomach, but I was, and I was like what the hell Like? And then I didn't know which one to take off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Cause which one? And what are the?
Speaker 1:like how do they work? I don't know, I don't know. It doesn't even make any sense. It doesn't make Like, just put a peach, that's a whole separate converse. Like I can't even. But I thought, okay, she's one of my people, Cause that post did you what?
Speaker 2:did you get to the part in the book with the no, no, no no, no, don't spoil anything, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I go upstairs.
Speaker 1:More of that where that came from Fabulous, see, I just knew, like everything. So I go upstairs 1015, switch my patch and I go okay, I'm just gonna read the prologue. Well, that didn't work out terribly well for me. So I want to talk to you about that, because the prologue so damn good. First of all, it's a page and a half long, which is the best. The best, because hello. And then I start reading Okay, I'll be honest. So you've got four, if not five. Really Well, there are probably more than that. But in the beginning you introduced the four main characters and I'm going to say plus Jillian, because I'm not completely sure yet where she fits it. Okay, you mean Eva, do you mean Eva? Oh well, I meant, is Jillian one of the four? Okay, all right, so maybe I do mean Eva but nevertheless, the head of school.
Speaker 2:The head of school is Eva. Yes, yes, yes, oh, I can see her. Listen, I can see this whole.
Speaker 1:did you ever watch New Girl? Yes, this is my question for everybody. Anybody who's listening, who's listened to more than one episode, is like is she ever New Girl? So I have. Do you remember the episode in New Girl where Schmidt goes back to his high school and he thinks that they're honoring him with something and they're just like shaking him down from? They invite back all? You don't have to remember it, but okay, that's the gymnasium I'm picturing for this meeting.
Speaker 2:that goes on. You know what, as a huge new girl fan, you should have Tess Sanchez on your podcast. I'll I'll introduce you. That's Max. It's Max Greenfield's wife and she has a new book out and she's a fabulous woman and she's my neighbor and my friend and Max is my buddy and and you should you'll love her.
Speaker 1:She's great. Well, I'm like literally I. I talk about new girl so much on this podcast and when, because it's my, it's my happy place. I've seen the whole series probably 12 times. I just started it again the other night. It just brings me such joy. So that's the gymnasium, yeah.
Speaker 2:I would love to introduce you.
Speaker 1:Guys. I'm going to get you to introduce you. I would absolutely love that and I'd love to have her on. That's the gymnasium I'm picturing when I don't know why, when they're having this first meeting. I mean the multi, multi, multi-purpose room in which they are. Yes, so sometimes with books that have multiple whether it's POVs or this doesn't really have multiple I don't think of it as multiple POVs because it's told in the past tense right, I think it's different point.
Speaker 2:It's each of their stories, so it's like each of their points of view.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, agreed, and they're not speaking I, I, so you know how sometimes books will it's third person point of view.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yes. Okay, so I'm not crazy. I mean, I am You're not crazy, okay.
Speaker 1:So sometimes that's hard, though, if the characters aren't well differentiated. It's hard, and I am here to tell you that at 1115, I was like I have to go to bed. I was exhausted and I fully understand who these four characters are. Like, you did such an incredible job. Where were you in it? Did you get through the sound bath? No, I got to the invitation to the sound bath.
Speaker 2:Well, wait till you get to this.
Speaker 1:I can't even.
Speaker 2:The sound bath is where, like, all the secrets are revealed. So that's like that's, that's the really, that's the fun, that's the juicy. Yes, but it's really interesting that you say that about. You know, that was something I was really concerned about is differentiating those voices. Yeah, and actually after my first draft, I was working with my editor, carmen Johnson, and she brought in another editor because I need two editors Ronit Wagman, who I love, and I love both of them. We were like it. It was like this dream team. We had so much fun together. Yeah, it was like this sharing circle on zoom where we told each other things that, like we don't tell anyone. It was really fun.
Speaker 2:Um and um, after that first draft, the character, um, who is now dawn, who is like a life coach and like aggressively optimistic, um, she was. They were saying we should get rid of that character because she wasn't popping and she didn't really have a point of view, and not just a point of view, but she didn't have like her own story. She was very like, kind of like things were happening to her and she wasn't being active and I was like I don't want to get rid of her. I know I can find it and in that second draft it was killing me. I was trying to figure out, like, what is her thing, what is this thing? And there were two things that I found. One was an experience with a friend of mine who probably will be really mad if she ever hears this. But um, that she um, did not get into the tennis club and she was very upset about it and um, and it just brought in this idea of like, oh, this is something, obviously this is rich people problems, but you know, what does it? What does it mean for her? What is what does this tennis club mean? This is coming to her husband's and canceled. She's coming back to this community. This is the, the, the, the gold star, the gold. This is being accepted back into your community to get into this. So it's like, and if you can't, what do you do to get in?
Speaker 2:So that became her story and then that also informed the Heather story who you know it was responsible for canceling her husband Exactly.
Speaker 2:So it kind of it brought everything back together and and it was like I remember that day after I heard that story from my friend about the tennis club, I emailed them and I was like we're not getting rid of this character, and here's why. And then I found all this other stuff about her as I was writing, which was really fun, about like how this is a woman who has, like always been looking for her people and just couldn't find them for one reason or another. Like you know, she was I'm actually pitching the tv adaptation of the book. Now, yeah, I was talking about how like she's, I was describing her as a character and like going back to like the basics and I was like she, she is that girl who had the only single in the sorority and it wasn't by choice, you know like she's just like, and no matter how hard she tries to find her people, somehow there's just something about her that is like slightly off putting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I, you know, um, I, I saw sign. I don't remember if I saw it first or I thought at first, but I know one of the comparison. You know, when you say it's this meets this, which authors do a lot the um, liars, um, big little lies, big little lies, thank you. I want to say pretty liars club. I'm like that is not it Okay, big little lies, big little lies, thank you. I want to say pretty liars club. I'm like that is not it Okay, big little lies. That's what was in my head. It's not, as I don't yet see it, as dark as that sort of, but that was the. I can absolutely see this playing out on a screen. And that was the vision that I had, not the vision like it's my vision, but in my head that I had not the vision, like it's my vision, but in my head that was what I saw.
Speaker 2:Well, and the way I'm kind of I position it and the way I think about it as a show and and as I was writing, it is um, is is more tonally like like bad, uh, bad sisters, if you've seen it, um, so, cause that really has like that edge and sense of humor and the satire but Big Little Lies was, you know, is kind of, I mean, I just love that show. They're probably coming out with a third season so, you know, hopefully there's room for both of these shows. I think mine is definitely. You know I referenced also White Lotus just because I think that show is so bonkers and irreverent and like crazy the most recent episode.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, I don't want to give anything away, but like the scene when the one guy his name I can't remember, rick goes to meet his old friend in the hotel and the friend tells him what he's been up to.
Speaker 2:I mean, we were just talking about it. This morning I was walking dogs with my friends and we were like I was just sitting there, like my jaw never drops anymore, Like I am not shocked by anything and I was just like what is?
Speaker 1:happening. And then I start to think and you probably do too, because you're a tv writer who I'm imagining the writer like who came up with this?
Speaker 2:idea. Mike White, it's all Mike White. He has no writer's room, it's just Mike White like, oh, my white in a room with his with himself brilliant brain. Yes, he is. He's so like I would kill to meet. Mike white is my hero like that.
Speaker 1:It's next, it's truly next level. I know that's a really overused term I couldn't like.
Speaker 2:I'm like who comes up with this? This is so crazy and with each like, with each line that came out of his mouth, it got crazier and crazier.
Speaker 1:It was outrageous.
Speaker 2:And the other actor, I'm forgetting his name, he was just watching, like.
Speaker 1:But you know what I think he was watching, the way we were watching, it's just. I mean, if they did that in one take, great.
Speaker 2:But to have to kind of keep that level of like, yeah, yeah, so, and it was interesting because so when it started and they started the scene, so sam rockwell and um uh, I'm forgetting the other actor's name, but he's so good um, and that let's just blame perimenopause I can't remember my kids names.
Speaker 2:So right for sure anybody's listening to this. Please don't be offended if I don't remember your name, um and uh, but sam rockwell. I remember I was watching it and I was like these guys could switch parts. I'm a huge sam rockwell fan. I'm like these guys could switch parts. I'm a huge Sam Rockwell fan. I'm like these guys could switch parts and Sam could totally play that part and the other actor could play this part. But when and I was like it's so weird that Sam would take a role playing such a straight character, and then he goes, he starts talking because also you hear like chamomile tea, and you're like this is gonna be pretty bland, like this is gonna be easy peasy, and then it just goes, so left I mean, I know, look at us, we're still.
Speaker 1:And I mean, mike, what if you're mike white? You're just, and this is the dream. Well, I don't want to put myself in Mike White's brain, but it's like as if I were a TV writer and I'm not, but you are. Is this not the dream that people are having this sort of a conversation?
Speaker 2:like that conversation between the women talking about you know, wait, did you vote for Trump? And she's like drink. You know, like, and it just was such a you know the nuance of like. I know, oh, you go to church. Is that weird. Do you do this, do you do that? Like this coastal versus. You know, texas parker posey is oh, lorazepam.
Speaker 1:And oh my god, what award would she be up for in that? What? What awards? Emmy, golden globe, all of them?
Speaker 2:she should just take all the things.
Speaker 1:That is, it is okay. All right back to moms like us talk, talk about this forever. It's so good, let's just have our own show where we debunk like not debunk but debrief, that's the word, I think.
Speaker 2:Mike Waite would like that.
Speaker 1:I think so we should pitch it. All right, we'll do that next. Write it down, or I'm going to forget because, yes, I know, I know.
Speaker 2:That happened to me. On my podcast with Zibi last week, we came up with this great idea for me to write a book of essays about motherhood, and then we both forgot. And then, in like a fever dream, I woke up two days later and I emailed her and I was like this is what it was. And she was like oh yes, you're right.
Speaker 1:Now do you incorporate? Because what I want to ask you about with moms like us is where in the hell did this? I mean, it's so relatable because I don't live in LA but I have friends who live in, like my. One of my best friends lives in Silicon Valley and I certainly see that kind of competitive one-upsmanship and the private schools and the who are you friends with and all those sorts of things going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it, I run, I run for the hills Like I run fast, but so we under we, even if we don't live in it. I think it's quite relatable because, as women, you know, we're just trying to find our place sometimes and and figure out where we belong. But where did it times? And figure out where we belong, but where did it come from? A and B? Do you ever find yourself using stories like the Locked in a Box? Do those make their way in? Because sometimes I feel like that stuff I personally could not make up. If I tried, I had to have my first. I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this live, but I had to have my first colonoscopy a couple of weeks ago. Okay, Jordan, my anesthesiologist was so cute and I'm a single person and he's a single person because I did, in fact, confirm it with my nurse, who I'm now Instagram friends with, and I thought under no circumstances could I make this up Like here I am, by the way, this is the best meet cute.
Speaker 2:This is the best meet cute I've ever heard.
Speaker 1:You have to write. I don't think that he and I are ever going to meet again in real life Like he's seen the worst.
Speaker 2:I mean, come on, I mean well but at least that's the thing, like it only can get better from there, right.
Speaker 1:He's seen it all. I mean, you're not wrong, but I I'm working on my first novel and it's a scene now because I thought, like my, my, my main character is a single woman, a newly newly divorced woman, and she's you know, and so what better place to find someone who you really think is cute than when you're have you know ass out in the like. If you can believe this, I did you ever watch the show happy endings of course, I thought that my friend was an ep on it.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, okay, so that's another of my standbys.
Speaker 1:Your life is fun. So do you remember the scene when I'm forgetting her name because perimenopause, but she's the cute young, I mean, they're all cute, but if you say her name I'm going to know it. Brunette, I don't remember anything either. Okay, she's got a podium and she's giving a speech and the podium starts to fall forward and she goes I'm going down or going down, okay. So when he put my Eliza, Deschkoop?
Speaker 2:no, that's not it.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, Uh, but right, I'm thinking of her name, penny. On the show. Her character's name is Penny, and so when the anesthesiologist put the drug in my IV so that I would go to sleep, you know, I couldn't stop looking at him. Sorry, oh my God, it was the best ever, holy cow, was it ever good? And then I just go, I'm going, it's happening. That's the last thing I said Jordan before I was out.
Speaker 2:I looked right in his eyes and I said I'm going, it's happening by the way, if Emily Henry pitched a novel with this is the meet cute, like, instead of like book lovers, it's like colonoscopy lovers or something like that, Like a hundred percent, this would be a bestseller and it would be on every shelf and you should be the next Emily Henry, and it should be like you know love in the colon, you know loving, loving, loving the colon, colon, colon, colon romance.
Speaker 1:Different meanings to different people, depending on how you hear it. I can just see it now Like my.
Speaker 2:I feel like my first podcast would be call her daddy, you know, cause that makes sense, like the whole thing anyway, from your lips to the universe's ears, because holy shit, but literally holy shit, this is gonna I'm gonna be doing this for the next like three days is trying to think about like how do we make a romantic comedy title with colon, the word colon in it, like with the word colon in it, colon, love, colon, colon. Uh yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Like cologne. Like cologne like love and like I don't know. We're going to figure it out.
Speaker 2:Love and colonoscopy. Love and love and colonoscopy, I don't know no.
Speaker 1:Stick with it. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:Whoever gets a note, I'm going to work on it.
Speaker 1:We're going to work on it and then let me know what you need so we can go back and forth. Okay, back to you, because this is the you show here today. So how did this come? How did this all come together? Because your first two books were in 06 and 07.
Speaker 2:Yes, and they were young, ya, right, yeah, young adult.
Speaker 1:So how did you? Were you? I just want to know all the things like were you writing? For? I talked to Michael Jammon a couple of months ago.
Speaker 2:I listened to that one. I love him, he's wonderful and it was really fun to.
Speaker 1:That was the first time, so this is the second time and I'm so excited that I get to kind of hear you know how do you segue between TV writing and book writing and why is it not as easy as everyone thinks? Because I'm just going to put it out there Anybody who's listening a lot of people who's listening, who are listening are probably thinking oh, you know, you know, schmidt, right, I mean, so why can't you just but it doesn't work like that it doesn't work like that, but it's also, I mean, longer conversation and a much more boring conversation is how the film and TV industry is just shrinking and, like every writer I know, aside from like five, are out of work.
Speaker 2:So I'll start at the beginning with the book. Okay, which is this? So I've been writing for TV and film for many years. After I wrote my first, two novels were published why? I adapted the second one, camp Rules for Paramount into a feature. That never got made but I got paid, so it was good I get.
Speaker 2:I've really like made a career for myself in film and television, writing things that people love but never make. So that's been. I'm really proud of that. Um, and one day they're gonna make something you should be. Um, yes, exactly, I mean I'm just happy to have a career, but one day I'd love to see something original get made. Um, I have been like on staff of shows, like I worked on American Housewife for ABC. I worked on this show, um, watchful Eye for uh, Freeform, um, and that was really fun. I produced my episodes like for me, that like being on set and actually like getting to work with everybody and watch what was just in your head come alive. That to me. Me is everything Like. I cannot wait to get back on set, and I have unfortunately no plans to do that anytime soon, but hopefully, um, you never know.
Speaker 1:Maybe this colonoscopy love thing will work, and then I can have you produce it Perfect, just a thought, and we can adapt it together.
Speaker 2:Right, package it up. We'll call Max Greenfield. We'll get it all together. Yes, max Greenfield would be great for the colonoscopy. Oh my God.
Speaker 1:For the anesthesiologist Perfect Done and done. I would like to be played, but I have to think about that. Who would I like? Okay, back to you. Back to you. Have to think about that. Who would I like?
Speaker 2:Okay, back to you, back to you. Okay, so, um. So here's where the book inspiration started Um, sixth grade. When my daughter was in sixth grade, okay, um, uh, my daughter is neurodiverse, which is like kind of a fancy way of saying she has dyslexia and ADHD. She and I was very concerned about trying to get her into private school. There was a lot of, you know, competition and for her it was really important because I needed her to be in a school that was a she's a really cool, regular, you know kid who can learn with traditionally but needs help, needs like. So I needed to find like exactly the right school and then whatever, and I was very frustrated with the administration and some of the teachers at my daughter's school and I went to back to school night and just some of the parents who spoke and who were so involved and made all of us who weren't quite as involved feel like shit. And, by the way, that's also on me that I felt guilt. You know that I let myself feel that way. Obviously I go to therapy, but anyway.
Speaker 2:So I woke up the next morning and I just I was like I decided to take like each of the women that were like driving me a bit nuts or I was angry at or I was frustrated by, and I tried to like see things from their perspective. And then I tried to like every negative thought that I had I amped up by like a hundred and then tried to find something to like about each of these characters. So that was where it started, and it started as just like throwing down all this stuff and then I just left it. And I left it for months and then, and once in a while I'd go back to it and I'd think about it and then I just like would leave it.
Speaker 2:And I was working on a show at the time and I was doing other things, and then the writer's strike happened and my book agent texted me and I happened to be on our annual like camping trip in Santa Barbara with the school and and which is where the prologue happens and the you know, the murder happens. And my book agent text me. He's like writer's strike, great time to write a novel. And I was like well, for me I had about like 40 pages.
Speaker 2:I didn't know how it was going to end. I hadn't written a novel in a long time and I just said you got to sell it off of a partial, because I'm not going to finish it on my own, I just know my bandwidth. And he's like, well, you're not going to get a ton of money, and I'm like, I know that, but it's more than I'm making on strike, so, true. So, and then he's like, and you'll have the rights and you'll sell it into as a TV show. So, anyway, I met my editor. He introduced me to my editor, carmen Johnson, and we had the loveliest chat and she really understood, um, what I was going for.
Speaker 2:And she's with little a she's with little a, that's right. And um, I hadn't heard of little a. I didn't know. You know, I I'm not real, I wasn't really educated and you know who was publishing what. But it was funny because she was the only one I talked to and she really liked the idea and we, you know, her suggestions and ideas were great.
Speaker 2:I did a synopsis of where I saw the book going and again it was like such imposter syndrome. It was like, yeah, and then this happens and this happens. And I was like I'll figure that out later. And it was funny because like she was kind of selling me on little A, like she's like, yeah, you know, and then you know we're Amazon, so we do a really big, like you know, marketing push like online. And and I was like, oh, you're, you're, you're selling me. Like no, you can, you can, you can have it. I'm in, yeah, I'm like sure, yeah, let's just, let's just do it, let's just do it.
Speaker 2:So by by the time the craziest part was by the time we like actually closed the deal, because these contracts take forever, not that it's a huge contract, it's just that takes forever. By the time it literally my contract closed the day after the strike ended. So I'm like I need to get a job like a paying like TV film job and instead I need to get a job like a paying like TV film job and instead I have to write a 250 page novel. And but it's fine because, as I was saying, the Hollywood world, the TV and film world, has contracted so majorly since, like the boom of all the streaming stuff and everything was going and there was so much, and then, like since the strike, it's just been like trickling in and the only thing selling it's like has like Kim Kardashian or you know, or it's Ryan Murphy or it's, you know, shonda Rhimes. It's just it's been very, very challenging to sell something.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think you know it's so interesting to me when I talk to different people how much the book industry, the TV industry and the music industry are incredibly similar. And they're also incredibly similar Well, in many ways, but one of them is the outside perspective of how things work in the space.
Speaker 1:So, whether you're talking about a traditional publisher or in the music industry, it would be getting signed with like RCA or Capitol Records, or, as opposed to a smaller label, or just being an indie musician. And then in the TV writer space, I mean so many and I'm putting air quotes around this but successful actors and et cetera are ending up forming their own companies so that they can do their own things, but they're not funding. Some of them are self-funding and others of them are crowdfunding. I mean, there's just all these different and new ways and I think they're happening faster than people can get their brain around it. But this idea that any of us in this space just comes up with a brilliant idea or even a stupid idea and it just goes is just incorrect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, it's. And you know, I think back in the day, even 10, 15 years ago, like the first TV thing that I sold, I did not have a sample. I had this idea for an hour long, dramedy, kind of based on not my own experience but inspired by an experience when my grandmother passed away and it was called the Eulogist and I described it as Ally McBeal meets Six Feet Under. That also dates it a little bit. That tells you how long ago it was. So this must have been like 10, 12 years ago. I didn't have a sample. I pitched this and like I just sell it in the room to NBC and, and you know, I wrote it and didn't end up getting made again part of my, my um, my brand Um and she's a great writer Doesn't get anything made.
Speaker 1:And does that frustrate you? What's your? I'm going to segue a little bit, but does it frustrate you when other people, who maybe you perceive as not having put in their time, so to speak, get an opportunity? Or do you just understand? That's just, there's a lot of luck, there's a lot of timing, right, it's not?
Speaker 2:There is a lot of luck and there's a lot of timing. I'm not going to say which movie, but there was a movie that came out on streaming recently. That was a comedy that was so bad. Okay, I watched it with my kids, who are not like critics, you know, tell me what it is when we stop recording.
Speaker 2:But it was, it was. It was like I mean, I was like shocked and I was like I looked at my husband, cause we sometimes work together, he's a producer and I said why can't they make our bad comedies? Like, why do they have to make their bad comedies? Yeah, I can write a bad comedy. I can write a mediocre feature. Like I write that, um, so uh, yeah, that. So, yeah, I mean, I think the goal is just to have my mediocre writing made. But no, I will also say my friend, emily Fox, who I just love on so many levels and I really admire. She's an amazing writer and she also hired me on the Watchful Eye. She was the showrunner. We've been friends for many years.
Speaker 2:Um, she often says and I want to give her credit because I think it's so, it's so funny and I think it's so true is like when she talks about something that she doesn't think is very well written, she'll say like she's like it's succession if it was written in crayon, and I love it, I love when she does and she does it with like a lot of different shows and and, um, she's just, she's, she's the best. You kind of know exactly what she means. Yes, oh, you know right, oh, I get it. I get it, yeah, but I stayed her, so she read like early drafts of my novel. She's one of those people I send everything to and she always gives me great notes and she's so warm and wonderful and thoughtful in the way she shares those notes and and and I I always say to her I'm like it's, you know, it's Big Little Lies written in crayon or it's Bad Moms, I mean, it's a Bad Sisters, yeah, like you know so, and she's like Jordan, it's not, you know, we need those people.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes yes.
Speaker 1:And I think like I mean okay, let's talk about blurbs for a second, because this is a big, this is a big discussion point as of late, because somebody who was Simon and Schuster who came out and said we're not going to force our authors to get blurbs anymore. Oh yeah, good morning. Like I can't even can't find words because I just said Amy Polar and so I just love Amy Polar.
Speaker 2:She's the best, she's a great human, she's a great actress, she's a great producer. So I I met her first because I had a project with her that was based on my cousin. It was called Slutty Aunt Jill Again another show that was very well received and never made. And never made sure and never made. And we stayed friendly. And then it turned out our kids ended up in the same grade, at the same school, okay, and so we then became mom friends on top of having worked together. And she was so menschy, like when I reached out to her and I just said I have this new novel, she was like, oh my God, congratulations, it's so amazing. And she was like, of course I'll blurb it, of course I have this new novel. She was like, oh my God, congratulations, it's so amazing. And she was like, of course I'll blurb it, of course I'll read it. And you know, she was just, she's just an incredible person.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why when I say and I haven't met her, you know I, it's on my dream list but when I say I just love her, I mean a she makes me laugh harder than I mean my God with between her and Tina Fey, and I don't even know what to do. But from what I glean, she's a really good person and a good human and I think that that usurps pretty much everything in my world at this point. If you're just a good person and a good human, it's going to be fine. But what I wanted to ask you about is you know, do you feel being in the space that you're in?
Speaker 1:Do you feel any kind of an additional sort of pressure because you're able to get blurbs by people like Amy Poehler and you are connected to some of the people you're? Or do you think you've just become? And I and I ask it because I think from the outside again, I'm always trying to sort of I hate this phrase, I'm so sick, but pull back the curtain on what is it really like? So often the authors with whom I work will say something and understandably say something like well, of course she's going to make that work, like she's entrenched in that. And Amy. You know, amy blurbed it and blah, blah, blah, and then you.
Speaker 2:I find that sometimes that's frustrating for the author, but I don't want to put words in your mouth, so no, I think 10 years ago, this book probably would have been a slam dunk, you know, like, like in terms of selling it as a tv show or whatever, and you package it up and you do all the things Now, post Strike, it is so competitive and it is so crazy and like, the buyers are so specific about what they want and there are so many producers and there's an every and I mean with with a show like this. Like when I was starting this and I was talking to you know, my managers and my agent and we were kind of strategizing how do we go out with this book in you know the smartest way. And I immediately go to the place of like, we have five awesome roles for women in their like roles early to mid forties to mid fifties. And, by the way, like, for me, I'm like, the older the better we can have. You know, I didn't have I for, for I didn't have my first kid till I was 37 or something. So I mean I, you know, and and I have lots of friends who are older than me, I have friends who are annoying and younger than me, um, like I was with today, but but I, I, I think. So I wanted to go to like let's get four women and make it like an undeniable package and do all this stuff.
Speaker 2:But it's not, it's not that easy. I think it used to be and I think if you maybe are that person or you're with Hello Sunshine or you're with you know then. But but there's so much politics, cause it's like maybe this actress doesn't want to work with this actress and or maybe this one wants to be the producer, or they all want to produce, which in my mind I'm like great, let's all produce, let's all do it. And then it's like you know, no, jordan, you can't just like yeah, not, everything is like a co-production and everyone can produce and everybody can.
Speaker 2:So there is. So I find my managers like constantly being like let's slow your roll, because I'm like I can send this to my you know, I had a project with Sharon Horgan, who's my friend, who I love, who's amazing, and she did Bad Sisters and I can send it to her and I can do this and I can do that, and they're like let's slow down. There is a way of doing things. And so you know, we're kind of going slowly in that right now, but I'm also I have never been accused of being patient- oh, forget about it.
Speaker 2:Forget it.
Speaker 1:And then as I'm perimenopause and I'm like it's perimenopause, I don't yeah, yeah, I'm like I don't have time, I'm any minute now, right, I any second, like God only knows Right, and I vacillate between should I just go balls to the wall because it could all end in five minutes, or should I be go? Balls to the wall because it could all end in five minutes, or should I be, I don't know. But I also wanted how many patches.
Speaker 2:I put on that week. But I also, you know, what's interesting right now also is like we're in this moment where, like leaning in is kind of like feels old school now and now it's like radical truth, telling, like that is what we're. It's like miranda, july, the tell, you know the mother load, like all this stuff is. So it's all about like no, I fucking hate it. Sorry I might not be no, swear away, fucking say it all. I hated being, you know, a mother of a newborn and I I had postpartum and I had this and I never liked it. And you know, a mother of a newborn and I had postpartum and I had this and I never liked it. And you know what I didn't like being pregnant and I didn't. You know like and, and you know, and everyone is just being more honest, radically honest, radically honest about who you are.
Speaker 2:Yes, who you are frustrations as a woman, as a mother, as trying to do it all or trying to be OK with, you know, not having a job outside the house and like. What does that look like? You know, how do I get? You know, eve Rodsky talks about this so much and is such an amazing advocate for women in every way, but especially for you know, in Fair Play and Unicorn Space she talks about this and so like I feel like this book is trying to taps into that a little bit, because- yeah, and you know what you do.
Speaker 1:That I think is so interesting and I'm curious if it was intentional or if it's just your writing style, but I really like it is. There's this fourth wall breaking thing that it feels like is happening a lot where it's so interesting. I don't know well clearly how to describe it, but I underlined this one. This one line is on page 14, where you were talking about um, somebody was uh, if she heard about one more mom sneaking samples of Ozempic, she was going to scream into her down alternative pillow. And then the next line, which is its own paragraph, says what she had allergies. So it's almost like you anticipate what a viewer or a reader might be thinking and you address it and then you go back to the story. It's really cool.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's like I mean because I think that what I really wanted to show was layers of each woman. Yes, and that was. And again, like I really wanted to write women like the bad version, like the like, take everything negative that I have ever thought. And I have a lot of negative thoughts, not that I act on them and I don't really think I'm a bad person Maybe I am but I have to say I feel so much guilt and shame all the time for my bad thoughts. And then I read something like Fleischman is in trouble, and I'm like I feel less alone because I'm like, oh, someone else has, someone else has this crazy reaction, someone else has this thought, someone else feels trapped or alone or you know, or just hates this person for no reason or a reason that I can understand, and sometimes you don't want to analyze.
Speaker 1:We're all in therapy, right? There's moments when it's like why do you feel that way, liz? What is that? Let's go back to your inner child and try to awaken. Okay, fine, but sometimes I just don't. It's like why don't? Well, why don't you is? Are they your mirror? I don't care, I just don't. I don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the funniest thing to me was so I sent in not an early draft but a pretty like a you know not the final draft, to my parents and they both started reading. They were so excited to read it. They're very supportive and they both called me independently and they were like because there is a mom in the book who sells her daughter's ADHD pill Right, Because they're struggling financially, Alice, right, she sells it to Alice. Yes, that's right.
Speaker 2:Who, by the way, is completely based on my friend, alyssa Bradenburg, who I love, and she knows that and it's like the one Alice is like, the one character who, like she's just like a small character that everyone likes, okay, um and uh, she loves when I tell people that I based a character on her. And she did do that thing to me at a back to school night once where I walked in and she shook her empty glass at me and I was like I got you girl and brought her another glass of wine. I love it. I love it. But we were talking about oh, so my parents called me. They had just started reading it and they called me separately. Like my mom was like Jordan, I need to talk to you. I just want to make sure that you understand that it is illegal to sell your daughter's ADHD pills and I really hope that you're not doing that. I was like mom, mom, it's fiction and she's like OK, but I just want to make sure. And mom, I didn't do it, just want to make sure. And mom, I didn't do it. And then, and then, like a day later, my dad is like I was very disappointed to read about the character who is selling her daughter's ADHD pills and I just that's great want to say I would be really disappointed if you were doing that. And I was like dad, I already had this conversation with mom. It's fiction. I did not sell the pills.
Speaker 2:Believe me, I thought about it, I you know, in like during the strike and whatever, like when I needed some extra money. Yes, I thought about it, but I did not, did not act on it, right and um, and then my there's you haven't gotten to this, but there is a very explicit sex scene in a minivan, in the garage of a Trader Joe's, and my dad was like have you done that? Well, he's like, my husband's name is Guy. He's like did Guy read this? Is he okay with that? You did that and I'm like Dad, dad, I didn't have do this it's not a memoir exactly.
Speaker 2:I'm like what part of this do you think like? When do you think I?
Speaker 1:have time to do that. I gotta cancel the whole rest of my day now because just with what you've said, I'm like I gotta get to the traitor joe scene scene. I got to get to the-. Oh, my God. Well you're like it's.
Speaker 2:That next chapter is like a lot of bombs get dropped at the-. Yeah, I got to get to the sound bath.
Speaker 1:The sound bath is which is such, by the way, a perfect, it's such a. I mean you use the word LA, but it's like such an LA thing, it's such a Scottsdale thing, it's such an insert, you know, it's such like a real housewives thing, like we're going to have a. Please come over. This is. You know, I've just spent $15,000 to have my outdoors decorated so that we can all lie on these, you know, phallic shaped rafts and chant such and such, and I mean it's just, it's, it's so good.
Speaker 2:Well, you're gonna, you're gonna have fun reading it.
Speaker 1:It's okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, the the the funny thing is that there was a sound bath and, um, in real life there was a sound bath. It was a party book party, of course, and it was at my friend's house. It was really fun and none of these things happened there, but it did inspire this and my friend was actually the one who she does sound baths and she's amazing. But at the end of it and I think this, I put this in the book, I can't even remember at this point at the end of the sound bath, all the women, our eyes were closed, we all started like howling and the golden retriever of the woman whose house it was was in the other room and it was a female golden retriever and she starts howling with us. My God, I knew you were going to say that With us and I was like I'm pretty sure that made it in the book. I can't, I know I wrote it.
Speaker 1:I'll let you know. I'll let you know. Yeah, let me know. But that's, how could that not make? That's one of those things that I think as right, like I would park that away and just go. That's got to be.
Speaker 2:Like you know, many, many months ago I was in line at Starbucks, as we do, as it happens.
Speaker 1:And I was with one of my kids and I think one of my sons, I don't who knows and I they, they moved the, the, the ordering window. So it used to be that you drive way up in the queue and then would be the ordering window and then you'd drive up to the pickup window. Well, they moved the ordering window back by. I want to say 20 feet, maybe 30 feet. I'm not a good judge of distance and I wasn't paying attention. I was, you know, I was checking texts and just easing my way up, assuming that the window was where the window has always been Right. So I go past it and my son's, like you missed the window. So I have to put the car in reverse and it's one of those windows where they can see you, yeah, you know. And so I'm like, hi, I'm sure you just saw me bypass.
Speaker 1:And the girl was just like as though this had been happening all day and she was completely over it. But I just thought this is going, this is going in the book Totally, this is going in the book. Like I have to put in my reverse lights. Everyone behind me had to back up and you're that person and I was that person. Yeah, and you know, I can just imagine that this girl, this sweet 17 year old barista, is looking through her camera at me, just driving right past as I'm typing something on my phone, like you know it. Just, oh my God. All right, I have two more questions. I mean I could have 30 more questions. We may have to do part two, but my first one is two editors. I'm curious how that worked, and were they working together, or was it like a triad? How do you, how did you navigate, one having one thought and one having another thought? Did that happen?
Speaker 2:Well they were, they're so good and I think they work together all the time. So I think it was like, I think that like it was more, one of them did more, like Ronit was more micro and kind of like you know, more line edits maybe, yeah, more line editing, and Carmen then would kind of like weigh in on, like bigger, bigger, but we all we would talk as a group about you know, global issues with the first draft Because, again, she had never she'd seen 40 pages and you know a five page synopsis and suddenly I'm sending a 200 page. You know, tome over. But, you know, unlike Hollywood and the development process, which is so dysfunctional, they worked so beautifully together so that I was always given, I always felt like they were completely aligned on everything.
Speaker 2:There was never and I didn't really talk to one without the other we emailed all together. There was never a feeling that they disagreed or that they hadn't got something ahead of time, whereas, like in hollywood, you know, you talk to your producer who sends you in one direction, and then you go to the studio who sends you in a different direction, right, and then you try to do both of those things. And then you go to the network who says we wanted the first thing that has been developed out. So it was a really wonderful so it's truly collaborative and collaborative, seamless, respectful, creative.
Speaker 2:It was an absolute dream, unlike so many of my Hollywood experiences.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I'm here for the dream and I love that when collaboration can be productive as opposed to well. I asked this person and they said to take out scene five. And then I asked this person and they said, no, definitely leave scene five, but take out scene 12. And then I talked to this person and it's you're like what's the right answer?
Speaker 2:Right, well, and I'll tell you two things that we disagreed upon. There were two big things. So sound bath, uh, no, not the sound. Everyone loved the sound bath. Sound bath was always golden. Two things one was the ending. I had a different ending. I'm not spoiling it, but I had had a different ending, which is how I imagine the end of the first season of the show. And it's a cliffhanger. And Carmen was like, my editor was like, and my agent, richard, said you, this is a novel, not a show, so you can't end it like and we're not planning necessarily a sequel, so you can't end it with this big cliffhanger, yeah. And I was like, of course I can, why can't I? And they won that. And I think I think the ending is a little like wah, wah, but fine, um, I mean it. It just wrapped up, it's fine. Yeah, like got a little bow which, like I like things a little messier, but whatever, yeah, um, so the first season ending will be a huge cliffhanger. Heard it here first heard it.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:I'm here for the other thing that we disagreed on was the title. Okay, I love this. So I had actually my husband had this idea and I loved it, and then I was like I was like determined to keep it. I wanted to call the book Milk Mothers. I'd Like to.
Speaker 1:Kill. Oh my God, I don't know how you let. I mean, I'm fine with moms like us, but I don't know how you let go of that.
Speaker 2:So I told Carmen, thinking like slam dunk, and she was like, ha ha ha, that's cute. And I was like I mean, it's not cute, it's genius, it's great, it's great and like it's a new term, we're coining a new term. And she's like, yeah, but people could see that as like espousing violence to women and like if you get, you know, if you have women who feel like it threatens them or you know, which I understand. I mean, to me it was never like I want to actually like literally kill a woman.
Speaker 1:It's like.
Speaker 2:I want to kill her. She drives me nuts, Like, but I understand, you know that that is an issue. So then it was like. It was like maybe we write maybe it's milk M-I-L-C, and it's like mothers, I'd like to cancel. And then I was like, oh, now I'm just like ruining it, yeah, Like. And then it was like oh, now I'm just like ruining it.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, uh like, and then it was like mothers I'd like to kick.
Speaker 2:And then you're like no, that's really no, but she's also like you don't want to have to explain it like that's true. Say milk, will it say this like? So that was a really like, that was an interesting. And then I mean we, they had to go into production on the book and we didn't have a title, really yeah, so there was a period where it was Mama Bears, which I felt like that might be too soft, and then it was like going to be like bad Mama Bears, but it was like there are so many things with like bad moms.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And then I just think you nailed it with whether this is a tennis racket, which I think it is, cause I can see the tennis ball or a pickleball Like I. It's just nailed like and she, not she. Well, maybe she, I don't know. I mean no one can see me right now, but it is a bear. So then how do moms like us make?
Speaker 2:it. So then that was actually Ronit's idea. I give her full credit. And then, and then Plum Sykes has a book that's called Wives Like Us and I was like, is that a problem? And they were like yeah, no, it's already in production. So if it is a problem, you know, we'll ask for forgiveness Well and.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think it's funny. So Pictures of you by Emma Gray. I had the song Pictures of you by the Cure in my head. I still do. Now it's back again. When I got Moms Like Us, all I could hear and this is going to date me or age me is this theme song to Spies Like Us. But I was walking around my house singing Moms Like Us.
Speaker 2:That's great, I love it, I love it, I love it. Well, when I was first writing it, I wanted to start each chapter with like um, like everyone's like um peloton playlist, because I imagine they all have like a peloton tread or a peloton bike or a peloton something, and you know. And then, and, and to put like words from the song, and what type of Ronit was like I mean, uh, carmen was like yeah, we, we can't, we can't afford any of those quotes and any of that music and songs are so litigious.
Speaker 1:They're so it's like the most lyrics, rather, or the one of the most, the just don't do it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, no, I had to take everything out, right, it's not worth it?
Speaker 1:No, um, all right. Last question what I mean, I don't want it to be, but what are you reading right now?
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm always reading several things, um, right now. Um, I'm reading a couple of things Right now. I'm reading a couple things. I'm reading James, which I didn't know if I'd like and I love. I'm really impressed with it. I just finished the Night we Lost Him by Laura Dave.
Speaker 2:Okay, oh, I was listening to it while I was on my trip and I'm also, so my daughter is dyslexic and so this thing that we started doing this year, which I'm really excited about, is like she's reading all these cool books in her classes. So I had, I don't think, and if I did read Cannery Row by Steinbeck I don't remember it and I was an English and American literature concentrator at Brown like a lot of books, but I don't think I ever read it. So I decided that she was having a hard time understanding it, so I decided I would read it aloud with her and so I just read that I love it. And then now we're reading there, there, by I wrote down the tommy orange.
Speaker 2:It's about, um, the native american experience in oakland, california, and it is extraordinary. It is not something I would necessarily have thought to pick up for myself and I am so happy that I picked it up with my daughter and I'm reading it with her. I found it incredibly. It's, it's I can't put, like I can't put it down and I get annoyed because she's like we're not supposed to read ahead and I'm like, oh, we have to. Like it's, we have to know what happens at the powwow, Like it's so, and it was great. So I I've been really enjoying that. And then I have a whole list of cause. I'm going away for a vacation with my family next week and I'm going to be. I have like 10 books to read. I have like mother, like mother Fiction. It's fiction. I want to read the tell just because.
Speaker 1:I want to read that too.
Speaker 2:I keep hearing and it's everywhere and um the women.
Speaker 1:I was just talking to Nanda ready about that. Last week her book a girl within a girl within a girl just came out and we were talking about the women.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I have uh pictures of you on my list. Um, I have um like mother, mother like mother, and um, I have the new jackie uh friedland book, uh, and I love her and she's awesome. You should have her on your show too, because she is such a a great writer and also like a real supporter of other authors and, um, she's been really helpful to me being in this world of publishing. You know, 20 years after my last one, and right, um, it's called it certainly has changed. It's called counting backwards by Jackie Friedland. That's Jackie's and I I have the book and I'm so excited to read them, to read it on vacation.
Speaker 2:But I will say one more thing, which is that I got like my first like really awful review, which I probably shouldn't even be talking about, but like it was on. I think we should definitely be talking about it. It was on Goodreads and I went really dark, like it was. Like it was. The review started with wow, I really dislike this book, and so, of course, and then she went on and she took so many things out of context and I get it Like it's not for everyone, like there are tons of books that people love that I don't get or I don't like, or I really you know, but it was like it was such a brutal scathing review.
Speaker 1:I just don't understand why.
Speaker 2:I mean, I was like so I wrote a response which obviously I did not share and obviously I did not like do, but I had to just like write it for me. And so, since hers started with like wow, I really dislike this book, I was like wow, I really dislike this review. And I started and I wrote like I wrote like answers to each of her things Like well, if you had read it a little more carefully, you would have seen she was not making a joke about this. What she was doing was blah, blah, blah. So, anyway, I sent this to my, my three best friends I'm going on this trip with, and I was like, can I post this? And they were like no, no, absolutely not Right.
Speaker 1:I mean it's, but it's. It's so hard. That's another topic in and of itself is handling all of that, and I think so many for every. You know, of course we all want the great reviews, but you can't. You can't want the great reviews without being open to the not great reviews. But also, why do people have to be so awful?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, I mean like just be like, fine, you want to give it one start. Give it one start. Be like. This wasn't for me.
Speaker 1:It wasn't for me, or just don't say anything Like I don't understand who wakes up in the morning, because what I think is fun is when somebody takes the time to write just a ridiculous review, like a ridiculously long, sordid review like that. If you go look at their other, they review everything poorly, like they hate everything. They buy every stitch of clothing they put on. It's unbelievable, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then you just start to feel sad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then I'm like is there, is there a character in that person Like I don't want to live in that person's head?
Speaker 1:No, no, like I don't care what the it's dark, it's dark in there, it's dark's dark.
Speaker 2:I'm like I'm dark enough, I don't need to go right like if you don't need to exacerbate this this person, but the best was like. She was like look, I have a sense of humor, but I'm like oh, if you start any sentence like that, right, you don't have a sense, don't?
Speaker 1:it's like when people say it's so like so many precursors to things. If you have to have the disclaimer, yeah, whatever you're I'm not racist, but right, bingo, bingo, anything, no offense, but yes, right, exactly go ahead, bring it, it's going to be offensive yeah, yes, exactly exactly well, thank you, this has been so fun will you come to LA at some point so we can hang out in person, absolutely?
Speaker 2:or we might just have to like zoom and hang out because yes, for sure, and I need to get within the next 30 days.
Speaker 1:I'm going to be complaining that I need to get the hell out of here because the heat is about to go like, like yes this was such a treat.
Speaker 1:This was like it was so fun. Best way to spend a Tuesday morning. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.
