Ep 116: Beta Readers, Plot Twists, and Audiobook Magic with Nanda Reddy

This week, I had a really fun conversation with Nanda Reddy about her journey from "secret writer" to novelist (her debut novel, A Girl Within a Girl Within a Girl, just hit the USA Today bestseller list!). 

Inside this Episode: 

• Writing without being "formally trained" (read: no MFA) and navigating the industry through persistence and determination
• Evolving from a pure "pantser" to incorporating more structure while maintaining creative flexibility
• The way many authors discover the perfect title organically after beta reader feedback
• Suggestions for strategically working with beta readers  
• Nanda's great suggestion (first time I've heard this one!) for navigating those "I'm stuck" moments we all encounter
• Collaborating with an audiobook narrator when you need them to authentically represent characters from different backgrounds

Awesome Email Templates for Authors

From communicating with your launch team to building relationships with readers, my customizable templates take all the guesswork out of writing emails that turn email subscribers into loyal readers. 

🎉 CLICK HERE to access to the templates

Dreaming of seeing your book in print but dreading the process?

From cover design to interior formatting to ISBN registration and properly loading your book to distributors, whether you need help with parts of the process or the whole darn thing, I’ve got you covered.

Visit www.publishaprofitablebook.com/self-publishing-services to learn more. 

Is 2025 the year you start your own podcast? Let's make it simple!

Get 35% off the Podcast Starter Pack with code PODCAST35 at https://publishaprofitablebook.com/podcast101

"I got my podcast launched in 3 days thanks to this great mini-course!"
--Dr. Diana Naranjo, The Characterist podcast host

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Nanda Reddy and Her Debut Novel
• 6:39 The Writing Journey and MFA Debates
• 13:25 Craft Books and the Writing Process
• 22:21 Finding the Perfect Title
• 31:33 Working with Beta Readers and Revisions
• 41:14 The Audiobook Experience and Reading Recommendations
• 54:47 Closing Thoughts and Contact Information

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:30

Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory, if you're anything like me. In short, I love books and I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most impactful ways we connect with one another. A few things I don't believe in Gimmicks, magic bullets and swoon-worthy results without context, as in be sure to reveal that a result took eight years or required a $30,000 investment in ads, because those details are just as important. What I believe in most as an author, the long game is the shortcut For more book writing and publishing tips and solutions. Visit publishaprofitablebookcom or visit me over on Instagram at Elizabeth Lyons. Author. Hi everybody and welcome back or welcome in if this is your first time listening.

Speaker 1: 2:25

When you hear the title A Girl Within a Girl Within a Girl, do you get as excited as I did? Because I was I, as we talked about Nanda and I. Sometimes there's so much you can glean from a title that just makes you want to dive right in. So Nanda Reddy's book A Girl Within a Girl Within a Girl just recently came out March 4th of 2025. And it was so much fun to talk to her about the writing and the publishing and the launching. She so well summarizes what I think so many of us hope for.

Speaker 1: 2:59

When we write a book, any genre, it's not necessarily, or even often, about the money or the sales numbers or the bestseller lists. It's about the feedback that we get from readers who are so drawn in, so entertained, so touched by a particular line, so curious about where something came from, and then we, in turn, get to be curious about why something struck them in that way, because there's always a story behind that as well, which is something I absolutely love. As per usual, I learned about a whole bunch of books and several resources in the course of this conversation that I want to dive into and fellow writers can absolutely utilize when it comes to finding great beta readers and critique partners, and I share all of that in the episode notes, as well as all of the information on where you can connect with Nanda online on social media and, of course, where you can grab a copy of her book A Girl Within a Girl Within a Girl. So, without further ado, let's just jump right into the conversation.

Speaker 1: 4:11

Well, first of all, how great did it feel for your debut to get the kind of feedback that you've received? Oh, gosh.

Speaker 2: 4:19

And still, like this morning I woke up to a review that just, I mean, it's still just. Every time I get a review where it touches a reader so deeply that they say all these amazing things, I'd have to pinch myself because I mean, isn't that the goal? Right, to connect when we're writing and and you, yeah, you want to sell books and you want to write a book, but, like you, you really just want to do that magic thing of like connecting and like having them see the story, kind of how you and what, the way you saw it in your head. And so I mean I, just I, you know, I got, I got reviews from Library Journal that was a starred one, which was wow, and, like you know, kirkus, and that that's always, it's always just an honor to be reviewed in any of those outlets. But to get the reader responses that have been so positive, um, you know, it just means so, so much, so so much.

Speaker 1: 5:21

Because it's just newly out. It came out on March 3rd, right yeah?

Speaker 2: 5:25

March 4th. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 5:27

Yeah, how long has the story been percolating for you? I mean, have you always written? Did you tell me a little bit about your journey to the book?

Speaker 2: 5:36

Yeah, no, I have been writing for years and years and years. This is, I say the tech, technically the fourth novel I've written, um, but it's uh it, you know it feels like the one I was meant to write it was. It was percolating in my head a while maybe, like four years or so, before I actually wrote any of it and, honestly, when it came to me I didn't feel skilled enough to write it because I knew it would be weaving a bunch of identities. I kind of knew this woman would be hiding her identity and every other story I had told before felt so straightforward. And I don't have an MFA or anything like that. I've always been, but I've always written. I've always written kind of secretly because I don't know. I just didn't want to tell people it's so weird?

Speaker 1: 6:26

Do you think that's still when you talk to other authors? I'm interrupting you, admittedly, and I apologize, but I'm still doing it. Do you think other, do you when you talk to other authors? I'm curious how much people still feel like the whole I don't have an MFA because I don't either, and I don't with the exception of, maybe, Joanna Rakoff. I'm trying to think of someone I've spoken to recently who actually does, and I don't think it's that common anymore, but yet we still lean on that. Like, I'm not really a writer I wasn't trained as a writer.

Speaker 2: 7:00

Right. I mean, I definitely think it opens doors for people in that and it adds a sense of validity and credibility to you, absolutely so. I started in the slush pile through Query Tracker when I was looking for an agent because I don't have an in anywhere. And even when you go to these writers' conferences and things, if there's someone with an MFA at your table, everyone's like, ooh, that person must know how to write. Do you know what I mean? There's this instant expectation I suppose although I think you're absolutely right, most of us don't who are publishing or writing and working at it. We don't have MFAs.

Speaker 2: 7:44

You know it's not that convenient to go back to school when you've decided okay, really, this is what I want to do and I want to study it. And we all study craft anyway. Right, we read nonstop. I feel like that is the best way to study craft is read and sort of critique, read critically as you're reading. But you know we've also all read every book out there. I'm sure I'm not the only one who kind of has a shelf load of how-to books. Do you have a?

Speaker 1: 8:12

favorite, or do you have one that you okay, I mean?

Speaker 2: 8:16

I have a couple, but I I have. I I love um the gosh. Now it just left my head.

Speaker 2: 8:22

The art of science, the science of storytelling by will store. I love that one because, um, I don't know, he just gets to the heart of story and that rich's character, I believe, right. I mean, you have plot, of course, for a story to move along, and I have a very strong plot in my book, but it has to have happened to someone, it has to happen to something and it has to be meaningful. You have to watch someone be affected by the plot and change because of the plot and so, um, I don't know, he, he will store, he has another book out on writing that, uh, I haven't bought yet but I will. But, um, I love the science of storytelling but it's not formulaic at all. I do also kind of like some of those. I feel like they go hand in hand with um. You know, like you have I read all kinds of Sure Craft books, but the one like there's the gosh. They're all on my bookshelf and now I'm blanking on all their names, as we do as we do, like.

Speaker 1: 9:25

I have one that I really enjoy and I can't, like you, I can't think of. I can think of the author's name, but not the name of the book. I'll put it in the episode. No, I'll put all of this in the episode notes, but it's Matthew Dix and it's. Have you read that one? It's, I think I'm pretty sure I've got his name right and it's about it's storytelling. But he's big with the moth, so it's it's more storytelling, oral storytelling, as opposed to on the page. But still, he really hits those nuts and bolts of like what brings people in.

Speaker 2: 10:01

Yes, Right, yes, absolutely, I feel like. For me, I had to. You know I read, you know, Stephen King on writing, and the Anne Lamott. Those are like inspirational books, you know, and those are important. But I also. There are a couple of books I read that really helped me understand the role of I don't know pacing and plot, and I just went to my bookshelf just now to get them because I couldn't remember the titles the Anatomy of Story by John Truby.

Speaker 1: 10:33

Okay, I have not read that one yet. Okay, so he is actually a screenwriter, and but it's.

Speaker 2: 10:41

It was really interesting. And then Story Engineering, which is very similar to it. Both of those kind of helped me understand that I couldn't just be a pantser. I was always kind of this pantser. And before, when I wrote my first novel not that, not that a plot didn't emerge, but you know it took forever for me to figure out the plot they helped me understand the point of of like kind of knowing sort of where you're going, even though I'm not a plotter. I can't, I'm not, I can't be. I, if I write the plot down, I'll deviate from it. I know I will. I do too.

Speaker 1: 11:19

But do you have to start with something? Or and, and let's just put the the um, whatever here I can't. Even words are not my friend today. The disclaimer here that your process will undoubtedly evolve, as all of ours do, from one book to the next. But did you for this one anyway? And for the ones that you had written before? Do you have some loose idea of where you want it to go?

Speaker 2: 11:44

or yeah, I mean I think yes, of course. Right, you kind of have like these sort of blurry signposts in the fog and you know you kind of have to get to it. What I think these more formulaic books help you understand is, you know beats that you probably need to get. And then when you start reading critically and thinking about some of that stuff, you see them and you're like, okay, maybe this is why I do like this book, or I understand why this works. And then when you internalize that a bit and you go back to your pantsing, I think it kind of comes out.

Speaker 2: 12:24

Now this plot in my novel is very it's fast paced and it is a plot that gets the protagonist gets deeper and deeper into you know trouble. Quote unquote yeah, and maybe some of that comes from me. Kind of I gravitate to books that move fast with language, that like play with language, that are that where it's not just what the story is but how the story is being told, and that's so important to me. And I think the Will Storr book, which is the science of storytelling, he kind of marries all of that. You know where there's, but there's also story and like connection and um, and yeah, and that raises such an interesting point?

Speaker 1: 13:20

because I think, as writers, we well, first of all, again, we get to change our minds from piece to piece how we want to do things, but there there isn't a right way, right? So sometimes people like to read books that are, uh, not just fast paced, but and I don't want to give any examples because I don't want it to sound like I'm putting those books down in any way but OK, a beach read. So whenever someone says it's a great beach read, what I hear them saying is it doesn't require a lot of my brain cells, like, it's just going to be fun. I'm not going to have to read a sentence three times to pick up its meaning. And then, on the flip side of that, there are books like the Covenant of Water, abraham Verghese, which I am reading so slowly. I'm reading it while I'm reading other books because I love it for a totally different reason. But I also know I have to. Really, I want to really savor it and I need to be fully focused, right?

Speaker 2: 14:20

Yes, there's I. I yes, uh, I totally I'm with you with that. I'm not a beach reader, actually I don't really I mean okay, actually, I take that back.

Speaker 2: 14:31

I do. I have read. I mean I guess Emily Henry will fall in that category. Right, I'll use, I do read those, you know, and I enjoy them as like palate cleansers, but they tend to not be like the books I will ever like go. Not that I mean people love them, I hear you. They're not the books I will go back and read or think about about afterwards, or um, or or just like often, hand, I'll mean my book club will read those for sure, but not like handle a friend and be like you have to read this, right, um, and it's more like covenant water, that's like that. Um, I, yeah, I, I. I'd like to think my book kind of falls in that middle space, I hope, where it's accessible and it's a, you know, it's a. It quote unquote, entertains even though it is heavy, and there is a um, there is attention to the language.

Speaker 1: 15:30

So how do you? I have so many questions how do you, when you get to a stuck point? Do you ever get to a stuck point? Do you ever feel like I don't? Either I don't know where this is going or I don't know how to write about this, just where you? Just it's not flowing out of you as readily.

Speaker 2: 15:46

I'm there right now with my work. Yeah, yeah, I understand.

Speaker 1: 15:51

I'm there, okay, yeah, yeah, I understand, I'm there, okay. So what is your process for that? Because I think that's something we all experience as writers, and oftentimes new authors or first-time authors which is a large majority of my audience they think that that means that they're not supposed to be doing this.

Speaker 2: 16:08

Yes, I mean that never goes away. That feeling of this is that I mean I feel like I've jumped, I've hurtled over that fence and I'm on the other side because I've published a book, but that's still. I guess it's imposter syndrome that ends up creeping in, right? But it's not just that In the book I'm writing right now, the reason I'm stuck is that it feels like the character, like I'm forcing a situation with the character that's not as maybe organic to her, or and then perhaps it feels like I'm forcing the plot onto her and I paused because I also yeah, I paused, and then of course, that leads to being stuck.

Speaker 2: 16:59

But I do think part of solving that is just sitting down, sitting back down and then allowing what I've done in the past, like with this book that's published, when I did get to a spot where I wrote a character a certain way and I was writing at a certain way and my first reader was actually this I'd signed up for this writer's digest class where this professor was just expecting 10,000 words at a time and then responding very quickly. But I, you know, my question was I was going in a direction that felt wrong and I had another one and and he was like well, just write that one too. And I thought that's brilliant, I could write them both, I could go in both directions. And so there's the why not? What's the harm, right, I mean otherwise I'll tell you what the harm is.

Speaker 1: 17:50

The harm is that now you've air quote wasted. This would be my, my answer. Well, now I've wasted my time and I that answer would be very, um, I guess like tongue-in-cheek and like walk my, because we never waste time when we're writing. No, that's my belief. That that's my belief, but I think that that would be a pushback on that question.

Speaker 2: 18:15

Yes, I'm with you with that, in that feeling of wasting time. But the truth is is you end up wasting more time when you are stuck. Yes, and what ends up happening is, if you're like, if you write it four or five different ways and you give yourself that freedom, you become unstuck number one and you end up, I think, using little bits from all of those back in the new one, like all of the things that you know are good, come back, come back.

Speaker 1: 19:38

It's not A or B. It ends up being some combination of A and B, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 19:44

Yeah, there's someone who asked a question about this book. There's a character, marcus, who shows up throughout the three-fourths of the way in and is somewhat significant to the main character. And oh gosh, I'll be giving something away. But they asked about why I didn't bring him back. You know, it would have felt too, but, but buttoned up, right. But I had actually written it that way once because I couldn't let go of him either. And, um, and, and the first reader, uh, he, he said are you sure you want to go in this direction? You know what? What are your thoughts? And I, I knew in my heart of hearts that this was the wrong direction, um, even though you know.

Speaker 1: 20:32

So, yeah, yeah so there's like you knew it was the wrong direction to keep. Bring him back, yes or okay?

Speaker 2: 20:39

yes, because of the too buttoned up and too inconvenient.

Speaker 1: 20:47

And it's such a hard thing to reconcile, I think, because, especially especially with your debut, it can feel when someone else gives you that feedback, it's so easy to go oh, maybe I am doing it wrong, Maybe I should. That word just comes out all the time.

Speaker 2: 21:04

Do it the way that they are suggesting, but I think I intuitively knew that I was doing something that just felt good. I was writing this sort of happy ending that was too happy.

Speaker 1: 21:20

To Emily Henry, and I love Emily Henry. I love it. That's why I read it, cause I know it's going to end.

Speaker 2: 21:26

Well, you also know exactly what you're going to get, right. And so I, yeah, I do too. I um cause I? You can't read the covenant of water and then the you over. You can't read books like that over and over and over, right.

Speaker 1: 21:40

You've got to. I I'm I read widely.

Speaker 2: 21:40

I'll read a thriller. Agreed, Just a bunch right, You've got to. I read widely. I'll read a thriller. I'll read a beach read. So I do read them, but what I mean like my favorite books invariably end up being the harder ones.

Speaker 1: 21:56

Well, it's so interesting. There's only one genre and now that I say this, someone's going to try to get me into it. There's only one genre. It's like music. I just can't get into country music. I can't, I can't do it. I can maybe get into the newer stuff that's a little more pop country, but if you try to take me back to what's kind of core country, I can't do it. Within books, I it's historical fiction, that I, I, just I cannot. And I there were.

Speaker 2: 22:23

What about Kristen Hanna, like she writes it, with always a romance.

Speaker 1: 22:27

So okay, here's the thing on my to be read very, very long list is the women I have yet to read, right? So like I haven't read Kristen Hanna yet, If anyone can believe, Can I tell you if you haven't read Kristen Hanna yet.

Speaker 2: 22:43

I know everyone's raving about the women and it's great. I actually thought the Four Winds was one of, just because there wasn't a lot of buttoning up and things happening for the romance down the road. Okay, Am I allowed to say unpopular opinions.

Speaker 1: 23:01

Oh my gosh, please. I mean, as long as we're not throwing anyone, we don't need any more drama in the book space, so like she is amazing and the book is fantastic.

Speaker 2: 23:12

It's a bit it presents the Vietnam war, the women in the Vietnam war, particularly one woman, and it's it's fantastic, especially the whole second half, when she comes back to America and the war is no longer popular and everyone's pretending like they were always on that side. Right, and but the four wins is actually about the Dust Bowl, which sounds so boring.

Speaker 1: 23:39

OK, let me take back. Now. You're making me realize something about myself. Let me take back Now. You're making me realize something about myself. I like books. Maybe you're going to tell me this is historical fiction, but where I can learn about history, that's historical fiction. Okay, but I don't read tons of them. When I think of historical fiction, what I think of and I don't know why is Little House on the Prairie. Oh, no, okay. Well then, maybe I do like historical fiction. I mean, one of the biggest books was All the Light you Cannot See. Oh, I know, I haven't read that one yet. Oh, it's beautiful, okay.

Speaker 2: 24:15

And I mean it's World War II, of course, but it's Of course. Yeah, You're in France and you are with this blind girl, and and you are with this blind girl and uh, yes, it's just a gorgeous book.

Speaker 1: 24:31

Okay, that'll go, there's just not enough time in like, right, it's just. And I, I sometimes I feel bad because I'm like no, I haven't read that yet and I feel like you know, I should read everything, but I can't any more than anyone else can. It's, it's the's, I agree the only way I started reading.

Speaker 2: 24:45

I try to read a hundred books a year, but the only way I could do that is actually audio books. I, I and and I know there's a whole cohort of people who are like that's not real reading, that's not reading, it absolutely is you. Actually you have to learn how to do it, because you it is hard to get into and to get your brain there, but once you're there you can do it. And I cook when I used to drive my kids all over the place, but now my youngest is 16 and I don't have to do that anymore Me too. And so all of the driving going to like I would be at the soccer game with my hair like this, listening to an audio book, just because you know cause I that's the only way you could get those in is audio.

Speaker 1: 25:29

So I have a question about audio books. I'm glad you brought that up because you somehow, some way managed to get or Zibi managed to get the narrator from the fourth wing to narrate a girl within a girl within a girl.

Speaker 2: 25:42

Yeah, I can't take credit for any of that. I am, I mean I. I was floored, when that's who I mean. And she is so talented. Can I just tell you how talented she?

Speaker 1: 25:53

is. You can tell me and I'm gonna find out because I'll listen to like I haven't read of the fourth wing. Now, that's a genre that I would tell you I also wasn't really into.

Speaker 2: 26:06

That's one where I haven't read those either.

Speaker 1: 26:08

You haven't.

Speaker 2: 26:09

I'm not a fantasy, high fantasy, gal Well.

Speaker 1: 26:13

I'm not really either, except my oldest daughter, who's 25, like I don't know, a year and a half ago maybe, said mom, just for grins, can you just indulge me and read A Court of Thorn and Roses? And I was like God. So I read the first chapter and I'm like she said just get to chapter five. That's all you have to do, just get to chapter five. It was a lot of chapters, but then when I got there I truly could not put it down. Now I haven't read the second book, but that it nabbed me. So I thought I'll give the fourth wing a try, if for no other reason. Everyone's kind of want to see what all the fuss is about. But I'm curious when you heard her read it I hear this a lot from authors someone else reading your book. The voices don't sound the way that you heard them in your head. Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 27:03

Yeah, actually, and for me it complicates it a little bit more, and Kaya, she knows this. But when I got the auditions because I got three audition reels to listen to I already told my editor and my publishing house they already knew and understood that because there's a Guyanese character in my book and there's the Guyanese patois that comes out that it was super important to me that we have a Guyanese reader. Now, guyana is a small country. We've got less than a million people living in it and you know we're not a huge population. And maybe there isn't a guy, maybe there isn't actually a female Guyanese voice actor, I don't know, probably not, because they couldn't find one. And they were like well, please just give these a chance. And I had two friends who I was like can they please audition? And they were like at first they said sure and they sent all their information. But then, zibi, the publishing house, actually they, I think they, they, um, they have a contract with, like a recording studio or whatever they they outsource this stuff a recording studio that that has to work. And so the director or the producer or whatever was like I don't like working with people's friends because who are not professionals, because it. Number one they don't know what they're doing, which is and number one first of all, yeah, and then you know they've never done it before and they there's all this blocking and they have to try to get it done in a week. And this was happening a month before publication days, or a month and a half, and so they were like, if we want it at the time then. So I kind of felt like, well, now I'm forced to pick someone who doesn't have the accent.

Speaker 2: 28:51

And I went through and Kaya's voice, immediately, when she was reading just the non-accented parts of the book, I was just like, oh my God, this is like, you know, when you hear magic, like when you hear someone got talent right, and she was. This lady is really, really talented. And I didn't know anything about her, I didn't know she was the narrator for fourth wing, I didn't know any of this yet, um, I just knew she was so talented. And then when she got to the the, the um accented part, I was nope, that's not right. And so because it sounded more like Jamaican to me than definitely not Guyanese, and so I ended up recording kind of how it sounded and sending links to kind of this guy's YouTube channel where she could maybe listen and get the cadence in. And again, I knew she was professional enough to get it, because then I started looking her up and seeing some of the clips of her work on her Instagram and I was like, oh, she could do all kinds of things. She'll be able to do this. And sure enough, at the end it's not the voice in my head and it's not like a Guyanese person who is a native will know it's not truly a Guyanese reader, but it's not jarring enough where you're like, oh, that it's, she's brilliant, she's actually quite brilliant. That's amazing.

Speaker 2: 30:13

I found out just how big because even after I knew it was the fourth wing and all that stuff, I knew she was going to be the narrator. Before that book came the Onyx and that one came out yeah, it was really when that came out and the New York Times was like, oh, it's breaking all these Harry Potter records and there's lines. And I was like, oh, this is really really big. Yeah, because I didn't realize even then how big that series was. Did she narrate the Onyx or Onyx 2? She's Violet and so she's going to be. I think she's going to be the Violet throughout, okay.

Speaker 1: 30:51

I don't even know what that means. I just I'm not a hundred percent sure.

Speaker 2: 30:55

I've listened to enough audio books that I do know that there's, like you know, different voices for different characters and stuff. Yeah, and so characters and stuff.

Speaker 1: 31:02

Yeah and so, but that's so. It really must require an extreme level of talent to be able to voice not only different characters, but different genders, different accents, different all the things it's like she does in this book, my book she'll do.

Speaker 2: 31:16

I mean, there are different characters that come up. There's the husband, and then she's doing that voice and it just sounds like a male voice, and then and then you can't do that, Like if the actor can't, the narrator can't do that, it's I can't.

Speaker 1: 31:28

That's when I have a trouble listening to fiction on audio books.

Speaker 2: 31:31

And then she does it consistently. Every time he comes up she sounds exactly the same. And then she does the kid voice and it sounds and she has like a different voice for each of the characters. I mean it's amazing.

Speaker 1: 31:44

It's amazing. That is very cool. And, yeah, a Girl Within a Girl Within a Girl. The title. Was that always the title? No, actually, I love that title, by the way.

Speaker 2: 31:58

And it is the perfect title and it sort of comes out of the book. It's not verbatim from the book but when you get to that spot you're like, oh yeah, it dovetails very nicely. But it's interesting how I didn't realize it right away. I was actually at a workshop in Tahoe I live in Reno, Tahoe's, not very far, and there's this great workshop called the Community of Writers and I was workshopping that, actually that scene where the title of writers, and I was workshopping that, actually that scene where the title comes from. And I remember you know there's like eight or nine other writers and they, they all give you feedback. But almost every single person highlighted that line and they were like such a beautiful line, this is brilliant, Love this, etc. And it was that like night, as I was flipping through that, I was like that's, that's my title, that's that's the title, Right. And it's funny how like it takes something like that for it to pop, pop out at you, I often find, like when I'm editing, that the title is somewhere in the book.

Speaker 1: 32:57

So sometimes authors are like I don't. Either they don't know what the title is or they're married to a particular title but they came up with the title before they wrote the book. And then an air quote see the air quotes. Better title comes through when you have someone who's a little more removed from it and can read it through. I just think a girl within a girl within a girl says so much. How many words is that Within a girl within eight.

Speaker 2: 33:23

It says so much in eight words that with the same eight words, like the repeat, I know but it says so much, right.

Speaker 1: 33:34

It's like. It's so fascinating to me how we can spend however many words a hundred thousand, 110,000, whatever if we're writing fiction, and yet we need to summarize it, we need to grab a reader to get into those 100,000 words with between one and well, in this case, eight words. But it's hard to go over eight or so with a title. Oh, I'm pushing it. Yeah, eight's a lot. I mean even like another one that I love that I think says so much is everything everywhere all at once. Oh, yes, Right, five words. But you get the, the whole gist right from the title. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:17

It's not easy to do. No, no, I mean, but my, my former title was long and not correct. I mean, I was called A Life of Deafening Lies and partly it was because there's this deaf theme woven throughout. She's got a deaf sister and deaf brother that she leaves behind in Guyana, and the guy she marries, her husband, has a deaf sister and their child, one of their children, is deaf, and so there's like this kind of deaf theme and I have deaf sister, but there's a there's a deaf theme woven throughout that I thought was I needed to have in the title and so, in a way, I was married to that title for a while. Yep, she's living and, and then so it just takes like a paradigm shift. Your brain has to like say nope, you're, you know, like you're allowed to change this thing that you created. Stare it at forever.

Speaker 1: 35:13

Yeah, and it can take a minute. You know, sometimes someone will suggest a new title and you know, as the author, you'll think no, I don't. But then if you just let it percolate for 24 hours, sometimes you start to go well, I mean, maybe it could be that and it's same with cover design.

Speaker 2: 35:33

Well, and I think same with anything, yeah, Like any feedback, Because early on you know critiques and stuff. I mainly went through beta reads where I swapped the entire novel with other writers and I feel like when you're a writer of long fiction, that's kind of the best way to do. It is just write the whole damn thing, Then find these writers where you can swap it, Because in the beginning it's very developmental the feedback. You can go and fix a chapter forever, but then that chapter does not belong in the book, Correct. And so I did a bunch of beta reads.

Speaker 2: 37:05

Is there was feedback about characters that were like is that would require huge changes and and putting together characters and taking out large things, which I ended up doing. But it's hard to take that feedback Cause, especially when they're like oh, the writing's beautiful, but all this is wrong. You're, you know you, you're like I don't know what you're talking about, but you give, give it time. You have to step back from it. Give it time and, sure enough, you get there where you're like yeah, I can see, yeah, maybe All right, Okay, and then at the end of the day, you're in service of this novel, You're in service of it, trying to put it out in the world, so for these readers, and so there's like a yes, a two-way, it's like a give and take and a play.

Speaker 1: 37:53

It's like it's kind of just a playful, moldable experience. But I just don't think going into a first book, especially a novel, which is so subjective when it comes to. You know, if we're writing nonfiction, we at least have some facts to lean on. But when you're writing even memoir, you have history, your own history, to lean on and things where you say I'm not taking this out, but it's pure fiction, even if it's influenced in some way by some things that have happened in your life and also well, to that point, sometimes you're emotionally connected to those things and we have to see that for ourselves and kind of go oh, that's what's going on here. Okay, now that I've seen it, does it still have to be there or is it in better service of the story if I pull it back?

Speaker 2: 38:39

Yeah, always, and I mean when I did the beta reads, I always did them in rounds where there were at least two responses at the same time, so I didn't always just take one person's response, and in the beginning it was actually four. I did four together and just sort of what felt right, and I was doing that Very, very big change. And then it was two and two and two. I ended up having like 10, 10 beta readers.

Speaker 1: 39:04

So that even gives me anxiety, like did you? And the reason it gives me anxiety is because there are two ways you can look at it. You can look at it like I'm getting all this feedback and I get to choose. So I'm getting a wealth of ideas from which I get to choose, and, oh my gosh, what if they're all different? How will I know which one is air quote right? So which one is air quote right? So I think some of it just comes down to personalities and how you work, but it sounds like that works really well for you. Do you like just having sort of a more voluminous?

Speaker 2: 39:32

You know what it is is as long as I found that if I took what they had in common, if both of them or they all, said something similar, then I had to look at it and I didn't necessarily, I didn't go with like line edits or anything like that. They, a lot of them, did have line edits, but it was that overall general feedback and reaction that I was looking for as um, as and and and. Then, sitting with it, your intuition comes into play and then you attack it and you don't necessarily fix it in a way that they may be like oh yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I meant. But you might. But you understand, something is not quite working and so you figure out how to make it work better, right.

Speaker 1: 40:23

If that makes sense. It does Like you see something that you didn't see before. Yes, because you're just work better. Right, if that makes sense. It does Like you see something that you didn't see before, because you're just too close Now with your beta readers. Are they also writers? Are they readers of this genre? How do you identify for yourself a good beta reader for you?

Speaker 2: 40:39

All of mine were writers, because I found them on writing websites and or workshops and I felt like that was important because, I don't know, I'm sure you can have beta readers who are just beta readers, but I also don't have access to that like group people. It's hard to find like it is your readers.

Speaker 2: 41:01

that are just it really is Yep, who also know how to respond. But on the other side of that, though, none of them really necessarily wrote my genre In the first four there was one who was writing like police kind of cop fiction Okay, and two that were writing kind of like, I want to say, magical realism sort of stuff.

Speaker 1: 41:26

That's something I don't read either, because I don't. I get like I'm like what I have to text a kid of my own to be like what are they talking about?

Speaker 2: 41:33

I am with you on magical realism for the most part. I still can't read a hundred years of solitude by Gabriel Garcia. Then that's one of my friends, it's an old, you know, it's a classic book yeah I, it's magical realism and I anyway.

Speaker 2: 41:48

But uh, yeah, I um I found them through writing websites. Uh, critique matchcom and scribophile. Um, I used those two and found, okay, it was there. And with people who wanted to swap because that was the other thing, like I wanted to do something in response, like I read their work and gave feedback too.

Speaker 1: 42:10

So um, I'll put those resources too in the episode notes, cause I think you know people are often curious where can I find a good you know a good beta reader for what I'm doing and and knowing? Do you let your beta readers know exactly what you're looking for?

Speaker 2: 42:28

No.

Speaker 1: 42:28

Uh, I mean, you just send it and say what do you think?

Speaker 2: 42:31

Yeah, it's sort of yeah, what do you think? Cause, uh, I mean, everyone's reading generally for developmental reasons, right, like whether or not it makes sense. Well, I mean, of course, you're reading in the beginning to see if it pulls you in, and if that happens, great. But then you're reading for character arc and story arc, and I think that's why, for me, I could only probably do it with writers, because writers understand that, they understand that.

Speaker 1: 42:58

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:59

Right, they're looking for a story arc Whereas, like I think, a reader who may not have had studied any craft would have been like I didn't like it. I don't know why, I just didn't like it. And then what are you going to say? And that's not helpful, right?

Speaker 1: 43:13

It's equally unhelpful, I think, even though we all and I shouldn't maybe say what everyone would like, but I think a lot of us really subconsciously want someone to beta, read and go it's perfect, it needs nothing. As a writer myself, I actually don't. I want that for like two seconds and I use what I call alpha readers for that. So when I know that's what I want, I give it to somebody who I know will just be like it's great, and then I hand it over to somebody who because I know it's not great yeah, I know it's not, and so I need someone to help me figure, like untangle that, yeah, no.

Speaker 2: 43:53

And you have to be able, like you want someone who you know like how, like to use a language that you similar language, right?

Speaker 1: 44:03

Yes, they have to kind of Like of why isn't it working? What inciting?

Speaker 2: 44:08

incident is just not there, or like do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 44:12

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 44:13

Or the character doesn't have a want here, or like, like be able to, and then you'd be like oh yeah, you're right.

Speaker 1: 44:20

Like. Or you know what it is, it's in your head, but you just haven't put it on the paper well enough. Or you know what it is, it's in your head, but you just haven't put it on the paper well enough. Yet that's another thing, is I? Just? Sometimes we I don't know what psychology principle this is, but somewhere in our head is, we know what the answer is, we know what the struggle is, but we haven't communicated it well, or we haven't communicated it soon enough. Yes, so you know. If you wait till the 50% mark to let someone know what the goal of the main character is like, you've lost the reader by that point.

Speaker 2: 44:49

Oh, there's a lot of that. I mean, I critiqued a lot of work and I found what you're just saying right. There is a huge thing I found in lots of people's writing Like they felt like they're keeping a mystery and like that that would string you along. But really, if you told them this earlier on, it creates more interest in mystery because now you want to see it Understand that yes. Right, and and so yes, there was a lot of that.

Speaker 1: 45:20

I actually. I think it's very common, okay. Last question I always ask is what are you reading now, or what have you read recently that you just absolutely loved? Absolutely Okay now, of course.

Speaker 2: 45:32

I just or loved.

Speaker 1: 45:33

We don't have to put you know.

Speaker 2: 45:34

No, I read a book. I had a conversation partner recently and it's sitting right in front of me, so Bright Eyes by Bridie Thielen Heidel. This is a memoir and it was fantastic.

Speaker 1: 45:47

It looks really familiar, but I'm not sure why.

Speaker 2: 45:57

Absolutely loved it and I'm going to go back in my like. I read so much that sometimes I'm like, oh, I just read, this is a Love Story, which is a Jenna pick, and it's writing is really kind of very interesting and super cool, you know speaking of Jenna picks, I'll interrupt you again Cause I wanted to ask you if you've ever cause this is what the Jenna pick have you ever heard of this book?

Speaker 1: 46:14

It's the great divine, okay, so it made me think. I I actually haven't read this yet either. This was Christina Enriquez was my neighbor when I was growing up. She lived right next door, wow, and her parents and my parents are still dear friends, wow. And I remember when her very first I mean she kind of just launched shortly after I guess she's a few years younger than I am, but it wasn't long after we kind of all left home that her first books came out. And she writes a lot about Panama, her family, her father's side of the family is Panamanian, and so it. When I knew I was talking to you, I thought, wow, I wonder if they would know of each other, because just with the Guyanese and the and the immigration and the families, you know what's so funny is someone just recommended that book to me.

Speaker 2: 47:06

You're kidding. Oh, they at my book launch.

Speaker 1: 47:10

I just had this launch party and and someone you're going to absolutely love and recommend, so it's in my stack, like I've now categorized the books in my house by read and not yet read, cause sometimes I even forget if I've read something and then I start reading it and I'm like, oh, I have read this, so I have different bookshelves now so that I can just so this is at the height, at the top of the not yet read. We read, yes.

Speaker 2: 47:37

I have the same and you know how I keep, how I um try to remember what I've read. You read a lot because you do those podcasts Right and see so many writers, but I do keep like a Goodreads account, but I know there are other places to do this too, where I write a small summary of each thing. And it really does help me remember the book Because, even if I don't remember it, I just kind of go back to it and I read a couple of lines. I'm like, oh okay, yes, yes, I remember. There it is.

Speaker 1: 48:08

Yes, well, and I do too. Sometimes, especially when, you know, most of the time on this show we don't talk about the book itself. We talk about the process and the writing part, the publishing process, the launch, all those certain things. So I don't hold myself to needing to have read the book prior. However, if I have, or when I do, I oftentimes put questions or comments in the very beginning. Some people would say that's total blasphemy. Like to write in a book. I've been writing in books since I got in very big trouble. Once. I was maybe four or five, I don't know, and my grandmother had given me this little book, which is a little book, and it was all pictures. There were no words, and for what? I guess that bothered me. So I took a crayon and I wrote out the word oh, amanda, I was in a lot of trouble.

Speaker 2: 49:00

You know, I remember the first book I wrote in. It was actually yes, it was actually. Remember the first book I wrote in, it was actually yes, it was actually gosh. Now I'm blanking on the name too.

Speaker 2: 49:07

I see, of course, holden Caulfield, jd Saunders, the writer, catcher in the Rye. It was Catcher in the Rye, and it was actually a library book, but I couldn't help myself and so I started writing in pencil and thinking I'll go back and erase it, and then I was like I'm just going to leave it. And I left it and returned it. So there is a library book out there, maybe with all of my little notes.

Speaker 1: 49:37

You know, what I think is the best thing ever is when I go to like an antique store and I buy an old book and they've taken notes, the margins or they've written. Certainly it breaks my heart, much like when I see black and white photos somewhere and I think that's someone's family, like what I want to buy, and I have bought photos and named them and I don't know that I we'd have to talk to a psychologist about what that says about me. But same thing, like with books, when there's a dedication or not a dedication, if the book's been given as a gift and in the front it says you know, to Johnny, love grandma 1964. I'm like Johnny, like wow.

Speaker 2: 50:13

You know, here's your book.

Speaker 1: 50:14

Where are you? But I love it when people make little notes in the margin. I don't know it. Just let an or underline yeah, cause I think, oh, that that struck them too. Yes.

Speaker 2: 50:27

Yes, yes, yeah, and I do, like you know, when you read Kindle, sometimes it'll tell you, like, if you underline a part that other people have done, it too. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:36

Feel kinship. This is a popularly underlined thing. I love that. I do Because it's just. It develops this sense of invisible community, Like we're all relishing in this line that this person just came up with out of thin air and look how many people it caused to stop in their tracks long enough to highlight it because they didn't want to forget it.

Speaker 2: 51:01

Yes, yes, isn't that so great, I mean. And so when I do get reviews, there are a couple of reviews that have been posted by readers that where they underlined parts and they showed the part. Those mean so much to me too, because I'm like you.

Speaker 1: 51:16

you that line, like there's a line that then there's a story behind why that line affected them always. Um, god, it would be. Wouldn't it be fun to just have an event where everyone could say you know, everyone had like 90 seconds to say this line affected me because, yes, yes, all the stories, yeah, that would be, that would be cool. Well, I wish you all the not luck, but just joy, because this is such an industry of luck. So, of course, I wish you that, but just the joy. I love how much you're enjoying the launch. Oh, it's been so fun.

Speaker 1: 51:53

And I cannot wait to get my copy and read it cover to cover and make notes. I'll send you my underlined pieces.

Speaker 2: 52:00

I will.

Speaker 1: 52:04

This was such a great conversation. Thank you, it was. Thank you so very much. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.