Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing. Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
EP 109: From TV Writer to Author with Michael Jamin
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What happens when a seasoned television writer known for his work on irreverent comedies such as Beavis & Butthead, Just Shoot Me, and King of the Hill takes a leap into the author world?
In this episode, Michael Jamin reveals the more personal and vulnerable side of his writing through his release of A Paper Orchestra. From navigating the intricacies of the TV industry to exploring the art of storytelling and the decision to self-publish, Michael offers an unfiltered glimpse into the realities of a creative career.
Michael candidly discusses the contrast between writing for TV and writing for oneself. His reflections on creativity, inspired by authors like David Sedaris, offer insight into the importance of staying true to oneself in a world full of (neverending) expectations.
You'll also hear about the joys and hurdles Michael experienced with the self-publishing process, including the role of social media in building an audience (as well as what led to his decision to abandon his quest for a traditional publisher).
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From cover design to interior formatting to ISBN registration and properly loading your book to distributors, whether you need help with parts of the process or the whole darn thing, I’ve got you covered.
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Write the Damn Book Already is a weekly podcast featuring interviews with authors as well as updates and insights on writing craft and the publishing industry.
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Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory, if you're anything like me. In short, I love books and I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most impactful ways we connect with one another. A few things I don't believe in gimmicks, magic bullets and swoon-worthy results without context, as in be sure to reveal that a result took eight years or required a $30,000 investment in ads, because those details are just as important. What I believe in most as an author, the long game is the shortcut For more book writing and publishing. Tips and solutions. Visit publishaprofitablebookcom or visit me over on Instagram at ElizabethLionsAuthor. Hello, my friend, and welcome to the first episode of 2025. I honestly don't know how we got here 2025 that is. But here we are and I am more excited than you know to bring you my first guest of the year.
Speaker 1:Michael Jammin has been writing for television since 1996. His many credits include Just Shoot Me, king of the Hill, beavis and Butthead, wilfred Out of Practice, rules of Engagement, lopez and Tacoma FD. He's also served as the executive producer and showrunner on Glenn Martin, dds Marin and Rhett and Link's Buddy System. Most recently, michael is the author of A Paper Orchestra, which he tours with a one-man show, as I learned while we were chatting Right after I said I think this could make a great one-man show, or rather this would be great on the Moth or something like it. The book is a collection of essays and they're wildly different, in my opinion, to what you would expect Michael to write about, given the shows that he's written for. It's soft and it's vulnerable, and the way he weaves these stories together are so relatable and done so well it's hard to stop reading and honestly I would dare to say that the book is a great study in the craft of phenomenal writing. Whether it's essay writing or chat, whatever you're writing, it's a phenomenal study in how to introduce backstory just enough, but not too much, how to segue and then come back instead of what I do, which is tangenting and never finding my way home. I found Michael a couple of years ago and I was so excited when he reached out to be on the show because I've always really respected, admired and enjoyed his blunt, honest, transparent depiction of his experience in the industry and as one would not assume that someone like Michael would need to self-publish, he ended up choosing to self-publish and we dive into all of the reasons why. I can't think of a better way to start this new year.
Speaker 1:All of Michael's information and links are in the episode notes. Let's just get on with the conversation. I'm very excited to talk with you about a paper orchestra because I think I first discovered see the air quotes you like two years ago. I think it was during the writer's strike, yeah, and you had posted. It was a real or a something I don't know where. You showed the check, the residuals, check that you right. Do you remember that?
Speaker 2:I do that every few months, so yeah, do you really?
Speaker 1:yeah, whenever I get everyone's in my wallet, so I'll sure well, I'm like I really like this guy because you're you know, there's so much smoke and mirrors specifically in this industry and a lot of industries, but oftentimes in this one, and I was like I love this. I think it was like 76 cents or something and I don't remember which show it was from at the time, but I was like this is great. And then I saw this morning you have an ad running. Is it a screenwriting class that you're?
Speaker 2:doing. Yeah, I do Every few weeks. I'll do like a webinar, so I have a screenwriting class during the pandemic, when Hollywood was shut down, and now I just keep it going.
Speaker 1:Just keep it going. And you said in the ad. You say like I know you want da-da-da-da. And here's the thing no one cares what you want.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm like again. Usually I say no one gives a shit what you want, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Usually I say no one gives a shit what you want. I think you did say that, yeah, but it's the truth. No one does give a shit, right? And so I was. I'm. I have a lot of questions, so that's why I have the iPad, because, um, and if it starts beeping, it starts beeping. I don't know. I'm trying new things here, um, but so a paper orchestra came out trying new things here, um, but so a paper orchestra came out it was almost a year ago, right, yeah, yeah, and I was, I was, so I've got.
Speaker 2:I loved Kelly Jelly.
Speaker 1:Bell. No, that was a great story and there are so many things about it that struck me. The first one is that and this is where my question comes in You've written for some really funny irreverent shows. Beavis and Butthead, king of the Hill, just Shoot Me. This was not irreverent to me.
Speaker 2:Oh, what was it to you?
Speaker 1:Like it had. Well, don't get me wrong, it had irreverent lines that made me laugh out loud. Yeah, because I feel like you write in your book, your essays a lot how you speak. Yeah, I felt like I was kind of having a conversation with you. It almost made me think you could be doing it on stage, like at the Moth.
Speaker 2:I am doing it on stage, we tour with it as a show. So we've performed. And Cynthia, my wife, she directs me because she's an actor, so she directs me. So we've toured. We've done shows in Boston, several in Los Angeles, new York, chicago. We're doing Seattle next month Okay. And more shows in LA, so yeah, we tour with it.
Speaker 1:Are you coming to Phoenix?
Speaker 2:It's so funny. I don't have plans to, but I'd love to, I want to. I mean, you know we're just yeah. It's always about like do I have enough fans in that city to sell out the show.
Speaker 1:So I have like three. So I can invite them Right, and most of them live with me. So what I thought was interesting about it is it kind of like when I say it's not irreverent. I felt like it's a different side of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is what I. What people don't understand is that as a TV writer, I don't write what I want to write. I write what people pay me to write and I'm cool with that. It's a good deal. But after doing it for 28 years, like you know, I do feel like I got to a point where I felt like, well, what would it be like if I wrote something that I wanted to write and didn't worry about selling it, just did it. And so you know, this is they would. I think people would call this a feathered fish in Hollywood. This is not. It's got all. It's very. It starts off funny and then turns very dramatic, and that's very hard to sell as a TV. I couldn't sell this as a TV show, uh, unless the book became a giant bestseller, but I couldn't sell it as a show.
Speaker 1:Well now you have me intrigued about well, how could that work? Because I love it when people say you can't do something, and I'm always like oh, but I hear what? You're saying, I hear what you're saying.
Speaker 2:If it became a bestseller and I hope it does then sure I could sell it, Because they don't give a crap, they just want, you know, it would just have a built-in fan base, so then I could do whatever.
Speaker 1:Right any way. See the air quotes again. But concern you. Lots of times people become known for a certain thing, a certain style, and then they go write something in another style, whether it's a different genre of book or whatever, and they're like should I use a pen name? Or I'm nervous about doing this. Did that ever strike you?
Speaker 2:No, but I did get someone left a review on Amazon. They were very disappointed with the book because they thought it was going to be a book about on how to be a screenwriter. Like I was like yeah, but that's on you, and I never said it was about a thousand percent.
Speaker 1:Isn't that so interesting when people like the title of the book would be like gardening for dummies and they'll say I thought this was going to be about comedy writing yeah, yeah, like it's in the title.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, but no, I really wanted it started with I love David Sedaris's writing and I just wanted to do my version of what he does, and so, uh, which, and it turns out, it's very different. But, um, but that's where it began.
Speaker 1:That's where it began well, I think there's like what I felt in specifically, kelly Jelly Belly was a a large like a softness that I don't know that people would expect from you, especially coming off of the heel, not off the heels of, but you can't mention Beavis and Butthead and Kelly Jellybelly in the same sentence and have people think that the same person is assigned to both.
Speaker 2:To me the book is a lot of I think a lot of the stories is either confessions or apologies, and it's about just like here's the truth and take it or leave it. And yeah, it's very vulnerable, it's very intimate, and when I perform, when I first started performing, I would do a Q&A afterwards and people would say you're so brave to be on stage admitting all this stuff. And then I always said I remember saying it would be braver for me to go on stage and give you a shitty show. Like that would be brave.
Speaker 2:You know, I would be braver for me to put out a book that, like here, I am telling everyone I'm a big TV writer, and to put out a book that, like here, I am telling everyone I'm a big TV writer, and to put out a book that's badly written, that would have been braver. You know, because the people like you know, then you're opening yourself up to judgment. And so I felt like well, put it all, if I, if you, you know, if I allow myself to be judged as a person, then they won't judge me as a writer, like oh, he's a good writer, like no one's going to judge me. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's super interesting actually, because I think it's brilliantly written, Thank you. And I think essays are challenging because it you know, when you write a whole book like not, not essays, so just narrative beginning to end I think a thought many writers have when they start is oh my God, how am I going to get the proverbial 80,000 words on the page, Like, how am I going to do this? What a lot of people don't recognize is writing back cover copy is harder sometimes than writing the whole book. And, in the same way, I think writing essay is sometimes a lot more challenging than writing a whole book, because you really there's a point at which you can lose the reader If you just get it to. How did you navigate that? Because I didn't find that. I don't find that with your essays at all.
Speaker 2:Well, a couple of things, Thank you. But a couple of things like when I'm writing a TV show, I'm I'm imagining the viewer, they have a remote, they're going to turn the channel. Even though I call them personal essays, I really don't think they're at. They don't really. They're really stories there, cause I wrote them the way you would tell a story on TV. So, even though they're called essays, it's not. It's really. They're really just stories that are just happened to be true.
Speaker 1:Well and I think that's another really interesting point is when people can take their own experience and turn it into something that's relatable, which is why so many TV shows I think do well, but you can speak much more intelligently on that?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I've worked on some little turds. You don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker 1:Well, that's true. I mean, you never know. You absolutely never know, which is why I think a lot of people would make the assumption. I'm curious what surprised you about the book, not just the writing process, but the publishing and the releasing process Because with the credentials that you have and the context that you have, I think a lot of people would make assumptions. I dare say I know a lot of people would make assumptions about this. What's that I did?
Speaker 2:Did you? Well, I figured this is the book I wanted to write, and I also knew that I'm somebody in Hollywood, but I'm no one in the world of publishing. And so when I gave this book to my agent and it took forever for him to I was able to get a book agent fairly easily because of my contact at TV, but it took him forever to read the book. And then when he finally read it, he apologized oh, but I let's take, I love it, let's just take it out. And so I was like wow, fantastic, we shopped it and, uh, the you know the. What I heard from every publisher was who is this guy? Platform drives acquisition. You know, why is anyone going to buy a book of stories from me when no one knows who I am?
Speaker 1:but isn't there. But everybody doesn't know somebody. Does that make sense? So I said to somebody the other day something about Mel Robbins and they were like who's Mel Robbins? I said how do you not know? And that wasn't me being judgmental, I just thought, my God, there's somebody who doesn't know, right?
Speaker 2:Because I think with memoir or personal estates it's a little different, because they'll buy a memoir from some D-list reality star who probably can't write or even read, because they know who that person is, and you'll go into the bookstore and you go oh, I recognize her name, I'm curious, but with me no one's ever heard of Michael Jammin, which is why I went on the Internet, on social media, to make myself famous.
Speaker 1:Well, say more about that, because that's a whole thing. Whole thing too. I mean, we could go down that rabbit hole for a decade, but when you say to make yourself famous, like what is your, what's your guy? This isn't even on my list of questions. This is why I just go with these interviews, because they just go where they go. But what's your? So were you not on social media before?
Speaker 2:no, not not at all. I like really a Facebook page, but I never used it. I never posted anything, very rarely, but I post something. And and then, you know, they told me I had needed a social media presence. So I went on instagram, which I didn't have an account.
Speaker 2:I went on tiktok same thing yeah I'm like, oh god, I'm on like I don't know anything about it, but I'm like I'm gonna be the creepy old guy we're. You know, yeah, we're like you come onto this app to watch you know 16 year old girls shuffle dance. Oh, and then there's me. Uh, you know how inappropriate it was. Get old man, get off the app, and it's.
Speaker 1:That took a big and then I thought you haven't danced yet. I just want to be clear because, I haven't and I swear I won't.
Speaker 2:But if, if, I mean but you, you, one day you'll be like you know what't want to go viral for that, michael. Yeah, well, right, and you shouldn't. But that's how you do it like to go viral. You've got to be an ass or be controversial, and then you're like that's so much.
Speaker 1:I don't want to be this person no, no, but are you finding that it's helping you move books?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's okay and sell tickets for my shows. It's like it's the only, it's the only way and I'll go to an event. It's kind of the point where I'm not like famous but I get recognized quite a bit and my wife has to remind me when we're in public behave, because someone's watching you.
Speaker 1:Well, god, anymore I'm afraid to open my mouth and I feel like I'm very. I'm not conservative in my home, but I'm conservative outside my home. So I feel like I'm very I'm not conservative in my home, but I'm conservative outside my home. So you've but you've built a big following. Are you primarily on Instagram and TikTok?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but also a little on Facebook, a little on threads and YouTube, but mostly, you know, tiktok is the one where you go famous. I wake up one morning and next thing I know I'm TikTok famous, which is the most desirable of all the fames.
Speaker 1:Is it? Do you think?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I don't know One day you know when you go viral I panic, like one day I get picked up by Yahoo News and I'm like, oh no, what did I say? What did I?
Speaker 1:do Right? No, I know it's a crazy world because so many people, I think, feel like I have to be everywhere and then it's like who am I and where am I and what do I post? Do you have a social media? Do you have a strategy?
Speaker 2:No, no it's just me, I post and no, I just no strategy, I just talk about. You know, my strategy was probably wrong, to be honest, because in the beginning I would just talk about my. I'd share my knowledge of writing screenwriting, because that's what I wanted to talk about. And then people saw me as like, he's a, he's a screenwriting guru, which I definitely do not want to position myself as I don't. I want to. I'm a writer, I'm an artist and that's who I want you to see me as right. And then, when I put the book out, a lot of people not a lot, but some people were like that's why they thought it was a book about screenwriting.
Speaker 2:It's like, yeah, and it's my fault, because that's what I was talking about instead of talking, oh, I got you okay, okay, I was positioned that way and so now I, when I kind of post, I really try to talk, I try to veer more towards art and writing and sharing myself, so that people are interested in me as a, as an artist, not as a teacher.
Speaker 1:It's. It's challenging, right, because I too have both sides, like, I help people write and publish books and I'm an author, and so sometimes I think there is confusion among my seven followers, right, there's confusion around. Well, what, what does she? Is she a DIY? She just tore down a wall, you know, like, what does she do? And so my strategy has, I would argue this is because I just don't want to make a strategy, but my strategy is to have no strategy. That's my strategy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I kind of think, just to be authentic, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like just just if I feel like it could be helpful or fun, or if I'm just trying to share the vulnerable side, like I just made a thing this morning about. Hey, I'm working on my first novel. All my books to date have been nonfiction. I'm like an infant Michael, it's like what. So let me go back to another question about the book, because with essays I think lots of times it's true of poetry as well, and I've even heard it. I haven't talked to many cookbook authors, but I've heard that this is the case. Knowing when you're finished can be challenging, because it's always like should I add another? Or maybe you say you're finished and then you're driving down the street one day and you think, oh damn it, I didn't put the story. Did that happen to you?
Speaker 2:Yes, several times. So first, when I finished the book, I had a bunch of stories and I said to my wife we went on a walk, I go, I guess I'm done. And she goes, no, you're missing a story. I go, what do you mean? I decide how many stories. And she said, well, you haven't written about the pandemic yet. This is like the height of the pandemic. And I thought, well, what am I going to say that hasn't already been said? That we socially distance, that we put masks on you know what am I going to say? And I really couldn't figure out what I was going to write about.
Speaker 2:And then one day I went for a run up. This is, I think this is the yeah, somewhere in the middle of the story is called the plague upon your house. I went for a run and, uh, in in our neighborhood and we have a trail, we have a road that dead ends to a golf course and it was locked because of the pandemic. They shut the golf course and so I, I slid under the gate and they've been running up the the hill in the middle of the road on the yellow line and and, and that's when I discovered what the story was. I just found out because I have. I was running on the road and I kind of have a lot of anxiety, but for the first time, in the middle of the road, I'm running on the yellow line and I'm feeling safe. I'm feeling there's no one around me, I can run in the middle of the road and everything. I feel everyone else is scared and I feel safe, and and then that's when I realized what the story was going to be about.
Speaker 1:So I'm intrigued by you saying you have anxiety, because I too and I'm trying to find the right phrasing for it it's not that I'm an anxious person, it's that anxiety visits me occasionally. And then sometimes you just go oh my God, why do I have to be so measured about how I say this, so measured about how I say this? Did that affect? I'm imagining so, I guess. How did well, did it? And how did it affect the release of all of this and the oh gosh? I just went viral. Why? What did I say that sort of a thing? How do you manage that?
Speaker 2:First of all, I didn't know I had anxiety. I really didn't, until I started writing the book. I swear to Really yeah, because I'm writing the book and you know all true stories from my past and I'm thinking why would the, why would eight year old Michael, why would I have said that? Why would I have done such a thing? Because it all seems very normal, like, well, this is why how I was. But why?
Speaker 2:And so the same thing when you're writing on a TV show, why would the character say or do that? And you better come up with a reason. So I'm thinking the reason. So I'm thinking, well, why would I have done that? And then I'm keep on seeing these things. Oh, my god, this little boy's scared out of his mind. He's so worried, he's got it. And then, of course, I'm, I'm an adult now. I'm just, I don't worry about the same things, but I'm still the same person. And so it was all about like I was really surprised when I learned just how bad my anxiety was. And, uh, and I see it, my mom, I see it in my mom. And now I have a whole new compassion for her because she's a wreck.
Speaker 1:No, isn't that the truth?
Speaker 2:Once you start to see what's really going on behind the curtain, yeah. I need to be four hours early, like, but why? You know, can you drop me off four hours early? I'm like, yeah, I didn't even argue with you. I go, of course I will, I, because I, I'm, I can. I know this will make you feel better, so let's just take you there, let's just let's just take care of it.
Speaker 1:So did you know? Um, okay, I'm going to come back to this. I wrote it down so I would remember, because otherwise it's it's gone forever. But did you self-publishing?
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:This is. I'm so thrilled that I don't care. I'm agnostic, right, if people I have I talked to traditionally published. A lot of my good friends are traditionally published I'm not opposed to it at all and I and I love talking to people who you would never assume ended up self-publishing and did so. What? So? Question number one cause there are two is what led to that decision. And then question number one, because there are two, is what led to that decision. And then question number two is, given that you didn't have an editor saying, okay, michael, we're done Enough essays, we're done editing, it's going to print. How did you decide? Because then it's all on you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I still, I still look back on it and I go, oh, I wish I could rewrite that a little different. You know what are you going to do? That's for the next book, but in the end, okay, so you know, I again I wanted to get it traditionally published because I felt like it would be the feather on my cap Right, and then they told me I needed it died on submission the first time because they needed, you know, a following. So I started building a following. But then I started talking more to friends who who, uh, were traditionally published and I asked them about their experiences Because, again, this world is very new to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Several things scared me about it. One was that I talked to many industry professionals and they go you know what's your title? A paper orchestra, what does that mean? And then I'd explain it and they go oh, it's a good title, but it's not a good title to sell your book. And they kept coming back to. I know they wanted me to have a title that would say I'm a sitcom writer, that would maybe say I'm wacky. And I was like I don't want a fucking jokey title. I'm really trying to reinvent myself as an author here. I don't want to bring that part of my history. And then I was worried about the cover.
Speaker 1:Can we talk about how much I love the cover? I can't even see straight. I love it.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and that was a whole journey and I found I mean yeah, there it is, but I love it.
Speaker 1:There it is, yeah.
Speaker 2:To me like you can. They say you can't judge a book by its cover, but I think you can.
Speaker 2:I think this cover tells you yeah you can, and so the way I went about that is I, uh the. You know, my book in tone is similar to David Sedaris. I love his writing, so I just looked up who had designed some of his his books, okay and I found this one guy, steve Snyder, who did one of his or who did one of his early books, and I just I found him on Instagram. I slid into his DMs, I told him what I was doing and a couple days later he wrote me back and I was like, oh my god. And so he goes. Well, send me your manuscript. I'm like, okay, send me.
Speaker 2:A couple days later, he writes back I love this. He goes I want to design it for you. And I'm thinking I'm not even thinking, I'm thinking he's way out of my, way out of my league. You know, I just thought you might refer me to somebody. And he goes I'm retired now, but I'll come out of retirement to do this. I go this is great. I go is great. I go. I don't know what my budget is now because I'm doing this myself. He goes I don't know, I'll do it for free. I just want this to be the last book I design.
Speaker 1:Right Come on.
Speaker 2:Right and so and I was like I'm out of my mind at this point and now I'm thinking maybe I can make the guy pay me. No, maybe get this guy to suck her to give me money.
Speaker 1:but okay, rain it. Then you had to call your wife who had to say michael, rain it in, rain it in.
Speaker 2:But um, then he was traveling because he was retired, he was for personal, he was traveling the world with his wife and he goes. I just can't do it now. And so he referred me to one of his acolytes, someone he trained years ago. So this woman named jenny carrow. So I reached out to her and then we went through a bunch of iterations and then she came up with a design, which I was.
Speaker 2:It was so hard because let me tell you something what's a paper orchestra? I don't want it to be a book about. It's not a book about music. It just refers to a line in the book it's not a book about. I don't want any musical instruments, I don't want an orchestra on the cover. So how do you illustrate? Like it's a hard cover, it's a hard title for a book, but all my other titles were terrible. I didn't like it. And then she found a cover. She had some artwork. I go, this is okay, I guess we're going to settle on it, but it wasn't perfect. And then I just happened, because the Because the universe works in these ways I happened to be served an article about some museum, some artwork in a museum, and I don't know why I clicked on it. And then I clicked on it and I saw the artwork that she was planning on licensing for the cover, and I didn't know that she was licensing. I didn't know where she found it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I found this guy's other work. I went to his website and that's where I found this cover, this design, which we licensed from him. So he's a Dutch artist named Toon Joosin and we licensed the artwork from him, and then Jenny designed the rest.
Speaker 1:I don't even know, because I'm not through the whole book yet. I don't even know where the line is, and I fell so in love with the title, because when you merge the title with the cover, something happens. So I'm a total sucker for titles of books and covers of books. It could be I've said this it could be about a serial. I don't care. It doesn't matter what the book is about. If I fall for the title or the cover, I'm buying the book.
Speaker 1:But in this case they went together and I wasn't really thinking music although I was but the way that that picture depicts all the words, kind of like building up to a crescendo, is what I was thinking. I mean, I just not to make it all about music, but I absolutely love it, and once you get into how you write, it starts to make even more sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I had a long conversation with my, my daughter, on my birthday, and cause I was, we were I was struggling over this other title which I did not like. And she said are you willing to share what it was? No, I don't even remember, I'm sorry, okay. And she said, and I go, well, one title will probably sell more books. And the other one is the title you know, a paper orchestra. And she goes. But which she goes? She's so smart, she goes which we don't know. Which title is going to sell more books? You think you know, but we're not sure. We're not sure. And she goes which book do you want to hold in your hand right now? And I said well, a paper orchestra. The other one I don't want.
Speaker 1:It's what I'm always saying and it's so hard, I think, that authors get into paralysis over this and, of course, if you're with a traditional house, lots of times they change your title.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you have no control and I've known and I won't say what or who they are, but I know I have friends who are with traditional presses and they've been told what their new title is and they're not happy about it. Or they see their new cover and they're not happy. And what sucks about that, michael, is then they have to go out and promote with this cover that they don't feel awesome about and a title that doesn't feel right coming out of their mouth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and that was really my biggest hang-up, because, again, I'm not doing this for money, because there's not a ton of money in it, because I wanted to write, do something that I can't do as a television writer. I wanted to have something closer to art and um, you know so. So that's what this whole journey has been about.
Speaker 1:So you ended up self-publishing because nobody would, you just couldn't get bites, or because you was it, because people had told you some things that concerned you, or a combination it was mostly that he told me that and then I and I stopped trying.
Speaker 2:I was like you know, I didn't even try to take it out after that.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And then I said, well, I asked you know how much do they help you with marketing? And they go nothing. I mean, so I'm like, oh, so what exactly they can get me into book, book, into brick and mortar, which is not nothing. I mean, that's not.
Speaker 1:You know, that's a big deal, but a lot of people buy their books online anyway, so yeah, and even if they get you into brick and mortar and I've said this a thousand times on this show and other places even if they get you in, the book still has to sell. You're essentially putting the book into brick and mortar on consignment because if it doesn't sell, the bookstore can mail it back after you know 89 days, right on the cusp of their 90-day return policy. So getting them into the stores is just step one.
Speaker 2:It's not as though it's a slam dunk, you keep your advance, though.
Speaker 1:You absolutely do and I will 1 million percent. I know that's not technically possible, but echo that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because there is, for many people, this idea of, or this need or this desire to be paid to publish the book as opposed to investing in yourself, and it's gotten to where we can do it much more reasonably from a financial standpoint, but it's certainly not nothing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then to figure out the marketing end of it. And a lot of people use a portion of their advance for their marketing. Yeah right, Right, so it kind of comes out in the wash. But you're absolutely correct. Even if the books get returned, you don't have to return your advance.
Speaker 2:But it was also this you know, like I admittedly it was, it was it wanted. I wanted it to be like a feather in my cap. I wanted it to feel like, well, I got approval from somebody, but I also know it's empty. I know that approval is empty and I know that from working in Hollywood. And it's not about the quality of the writing, it's. Do they think they can sell it? Do they think it? Because I, you know, when they buy a memoir from some celebrity that can't write, it's not about the quality of the writing.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like it's true in the writing, in the Hollywood writing space, as it is in the publishing space, where a lot of people will say I felt validated by my publisher and I'm wondering if this is true when you're working in TV as long as the book was doing well, and once the book starts kind of on its if it has a decline all of a sudden, you don't, your phone calls aren't necessarily being answered in the same, with the same fervor, your emails aren't being returned so quickly, and so it kind of feels like a conditional love. It doesn't feel like unconditional love.
Speaker 2:It's very and Hollywood is a few years back ago. You know your, your. My career has been. You know ups and downs and there's a moment when we had just come off of my partner and I just ran a very critically praised show called Marin on IFC. The critics loved it and then we were looking for our next gig after that and we worked nonstop for 28 years and it was a patch of a few months it was probably more than a few months where, like, the phones weren't ringing and when I said to my agent, like what's going on, he goes yeah, I don't know why you got cold.
Speaker 1:I'm like got cold Like I'm cold. This is the.
Speaker 2:I was like this is the first.
Speaker 1:No one told me I'm cold, but don't. I think there's again an assumption that like, if you've worked on shows, like the shows you've worked on, you have a forever career. And I remember I was talking to Ann Garvin, who's a fiction writer and love, love, love this woman, and she said she's written like 15 books. And she said for all I know, the book I just released is my last book. I don't know that anybody's going to pick up the next book, and I'm assuming that's true in TV as well. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people think about breaking in as if, like you're one and done, you're in, you have to break in. Every time your show gets canceled, you've got to break in again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a relentless industry and I feel like the music industry is quite similar, because you're kind of only as good as your last album or as your last book and then you've kind of got to start over. There's a line you have I wrote it down in the book that I, I mean I had to stop and write it down and and the can I share it. I think it's actually it's not a line, I think it's at the very beginning, like it's the dedicate, it's not the dedication, but what if the smallest, almost forgotten moments were the ones that shaped us most?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah, that's the premise of the book and I guess that's the hook. And it's because when I talk to emerging writers like so many people wanna like they think of their story has to be someone diving out of an exploding building. And when you think about the moments that change our lives, most people go to like landing a dream job, winning the lottery, overcoming a horrible disease, and, yes, those will change our lives. But most of us, if we're lucky, won't actually have to suffer through any of those things. And yet our lives change too, right, obviously. So then how? If it's not the big moments, then how? It must be the little, the small moments. So that's what the book is, it's like. Here are these small moments. Let's figure out how they change the course of our lives.
Speaker 1:And I think when reading your essays as well, we never know what someone's going to resonate with. When we write a book, we don't know what our we think a reader is going to be really touched by a certain thing, and sometimes they are, and sometimes they'll say, oh, my God, I also loved jelly bellies. Or, you know, I, I, you, you have the story of within the jelly belly story, of where she's giving you jelly bellies and they taste like whatever she's eating them and they take, you know, and it takes. It took me back to that horrible, horrible game when my kids were really little what was it called? Where bamboozled something, where they give you a jelly belly and you didn't know if it was pineapple or throw up. Do you remember what I'm talking?
Speaker 2:about. I don't remember that no.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, you were spared this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess so.
Speaker 1:It would be like a green jelly belly and they. It would either be apple or grass. Oh, okay, grass and you had to eat it without knowing.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was horrifying. I see, right there, that's a moment that you I could write a whole essay about how I was traumatized. So at the beginning of yellow belt the essay starts. I could not love this more. So you said your mom is a wreck, right Lovingly said Okay, but then it says send down the queen.
Speaker 1:as a child, that's how I summoned my mother, when I was snugly in bed and ready to be tucked in. And now I feel like I really need to meet your mom, because between send down the queen and you saying she's I, just I have this vision of your mom.
Speaker 2:My mom. She's interesting. She was a schoolteacher for many years and so a few years back before she retired, she was New York City Teacher of the Year, and so she taught in the scariest school in the Bronx. Wow, I remember going to visit her one day. She had me come in and talk to the kids and there was kids. They're middle school. Come in to talk to the kids and these are like, those are kids, they're like middle school. There's not even high school and they have to go through metal detectors and I'm like I'm scared and they're just middle school kids. And my mother, she doesn't take shit from anybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm guessing not.
Speaker 2:She was like if a single a the bottom single mothers who and she felt if the moms were not doing their job, like reading to their kids at at night, you know she, this is like this is on you when your child, when I send your kid home, you have to be there for them and help them to get so that they can learn and, and you know, and succeed in life. And she'd be yelling at these people. And then at the end of the year they're all thanking the, the mothers are thanking her. I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe you're yelling at this one.
Speaker 1:Well, and, and the reason I'm looking away is because I'm trying to people can't see me looking away, but I am, and you can see that I'm looking away because I'm trying to, and I'm not going to give this part away, because this right here is a is the reason to buy this book. There's a line and I'm trying to remember if it's your mom, it's not a line, is it Cynthia?
Speaker 2:That's my wife. Is that your?
Speaker 1:mom, that's your wife.
Speaker 2:I don't think I knew my mother. I think I kept her name, yeah let's not confuse the two.
Speaker 1:So the story about how she grew up poor, the only child of a single mother, that's Cynthia, right? Yeah, okay, this is only three paragraphs long and the third paragraph is one sentence. And this is like. This is a study in the craft of introducing backstory only as much as you need to in order to give the reader such like I felt, like oh, I know her, and, all of a sudden, the level of compassion that was developed. This it's. It's what essay is this? Because for anybody listening, I think it might be the first essay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what's the first one called oh, escape from Kelly jelly belly? I mean, and the crazy thing to me crazy, not being literal, don't take it literally is that I started. So how did you work through the editing of these? Because there are aspects of the Kelly Jelly Belly story that almost feel like, if not done well, they wouldn't fit.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Like that, like that story about your wife.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's the thing. I take these side trips and and then when you come, when you're done with the side trip, if it doesn't advance the story, why did you bother taking me on this little side trip, you know? And so every time I do, like that's how my writing is, it's kind of it's can you go up and here's a little loop, and where does the loop take us back in? And if it's not advancing the story, then cut it. If it's not on story, then don't put it in the story.
Speaker 1:yeah, like why but you always come back.
Speaker 1:You always come back you gotta and and I like years and years ago I mean like 20 years ago, when gail king had a show on serious radio when people listen to serious radio, that was something I said about her. She would get off on these tangents, but she always came back and I so admired her because I never come back. Oh well, I don't mean in my right, maybe in my writing too, but when I'm talking to you. That's why I have to write things down. If I get off on a tangent, we're gone.
Speaker 2:That's okay In a conversation, but the story sure, yeah, the conversation goes, but in TV you'd find yourself we always shoot long and usually it's like 20 minutes you can air. So what part can we cut? Well, we can cut these two scenes, because if you cut it and the story still holds together, it doesn't belong in the show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it is very true. I'm often saying if the chapter doesn't advance the story in some way, so go back and you know we're not talking about essay now but go back and look at each of your chapters and identify how does this chapter advance the story or my understanding of a character? Because if it doesn't, we have to do something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Right yeah.
Speaker 1:And that is for myself as well. So two final questions. First one is what has most surprised you in a good way, about self-publishing or about just the publishing journey, regardless of what has surprised me?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm surprised that I've got a lot of people saying they love it and you know, now I'm their favorite author. I was like, are you out of your mind? Like you know, like it's such a nice thing to say, it's so really, it's overwhelming, because in the beginning I felt a lot of imposter syndrome and the fact that I was able to write something that I guess moved people and I just want to write another one, that's it, and so that, yeah, that's, that's really everything. The fact that I can do these shows, that people buy books, that they, you know, and they come see me, and it moves them. Like I said they tell me that, geez, I had a guy come to their show and he said I saved his life and I was like, what are you talking about? You know, this happens a number of times and he's like because I read your book and I just felt like I could be me now oh, you're kidding, yeah and he was, um, this isn't a number like.
Speaker 2:You know what's your story, and then you know if I'm signing the books, I can only hear five minutes of it, right, but if a lot of these people are, they're just in pain and um for whatever reason, or they're not being accepted by their parents, by their friends or whatever, and they feel like they can just be themselves now. You know, that's wonderful.
Speaker 1:Well, I think feeling like you've contributed to someone, feeling seen is such a beautiful gift. Like you can't put a price on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we all want that. We want to be seen or heard. You can even disagree with, like, it's okay if you disagree with me, I just want you to see me, that's just see me right, just let me have my place, yeah, and respect my place.
Speaker 1:Have some right so that you're as long not and not having it be conditional on conforming or right, uh, having the next big great thing, so there's going to be another one. Is that your thought?
Speaker 2:oh, I'm already working on it, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Also essays.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I went. You know I'm always looking for stories, so yeah.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of which, what are you reading now? That's what I always ask people. Finally, last.
Speaker 2:I just finished the Alchemist For the first time. I know Isn't that weird, and you know, and it's so funny because my daughter is like you got to read this and I was like all right. And then I look around the house and we have like three copies of it.
Speaker 1:Why don't we have so many copies? It's probably it's one of my top three favorites of all time, is it really? Yes, I've read it seven, eight, nine times. I read it almost every year. I love it.
Speaker 2:Really Every year? Yes, it's so interesting. How did you?
Speaker 1:feel about it.
Speaker 2:I loved it To me when I was in college. If I read this in college I would have thought, oh, this is what writing is supposed to be. And I'm glad I didn't read it then, because I felt like then I would have tried writing like that and that's not how I can write. I couldn't possibly write like that. That's just not how I write.
Speaker 1:I think it's an anomaly. You know how there are like outliers of books and movies and things that they don't by all accounts they shouldn't have become successful.
Speaker 1:Like I know, it took a long time to become successful with that book. In his first year, paolo Coelho sold two this is the report. I don't I haven't talked to him yet but sold two copies. One was to a guy, a gentleman, and the gentleman lost it and bought the second copy. That's the story that floats around. But his publisher dropped him. He knocked literally on doors because we didn't have cell phones, we didn't have anything to get people to pick it up. Again, no one was willing to pick it up and then someone much like sort of Harry Potter Potter was willing to take a chance on it. It's a great story, but I agree with you.
Speaker 2:But you know, it's almost got that. You know fable kind of thing and and I to me, that's how I yeah, I don't know. But um, it's funny when you writing is about finding your own voice and uh, which was very difficult part of the writing process for me, but um, and so, yeah, good for him. I mean, it's such a clear voice, but you can't imitate it.
Speaker 1:You cannot imitate it. Yeah, that's the truth, that's the thing, and I think a lot of times people think I love how you said you wanted to do something like David Sedaris, but you, but you didn't want to be david's. I'm right, I mean the first I did.
Speaker 2:I want the first several of my stories because when you're a tv writer, you're a mimic, so your job is to mimic the voice of the show. Yeah, characters it's. If I write an episode of whatever show I'm on, it can't no one should think it was written by me. It should be like the show. Um, it shouldn't feel any different. And so I'm a good mimic. And so when I would read all david sedaris's books many, many times and then I started writing my own and I felt like I was like very happy with the first drafts, and then I set him aside and read him a few months later with fresh eyes, and it just felt like I was doing a pale imitation of him. It felt like a knockoff and I was so disappointed and and then I was like all right, well, I got to start over. How do I sound? What do I sound like? And then that became a long process.
Speaker 1:But do you think you had to get that first version out in order to be able to hone? Yeah, yeah, sure, in order to be able to make it sound like you. Yeah, I mean, that's all part of the process.
Speaker 2:A lot of people fall in love with their first draft. It's like first draft. It's like first draft.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, Keep writing. I'm on draft number 752, and I still got real bad issues. Do you have a favorite book?
Speaker 2:I don't have a favorite author. He's my favorite author. I don't know if I have a favorite book. My favorite book might be A Prayer for Owen Meany. Now that I think about it, what is it A Prayer for Owen Meany? I just love that.
Speaker 1:I've never heard of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:John Irving. Yeah, A Prayer for Owen Meany. Oh, you gotta, you gotta read it. I feel like I haven't. I mean, now I feel like an idiot if it's John Irving, but I mean I there are so many books, I just haven't. Hey someone hasn't heard of Mel Robbins, Michael.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, I mean, if it's not in your lane, that's okay. But yeah, I say, shadar is my favorite author. I'll read anything you write. So if you write some menu, I'll read that.
Speaker 1:But that's, I think, where so many authors aspire to be. It's not as though we need 7 billion or 6 billion, 8 billion, however many there are fans. Billion or six billion, eight, however many there are fans. It's that, if you find your core group who will read anything that you write yeah, um, that's a beautiful yeah, yeah, it's a beautiful thing yeah, it is what's next on the tv front?
Speaker 2:oh, um, let's see, I got a pilot I'm waiting to hear back from if it sells, and if it doesn't, I'll try to develop another one. I mean, you know it's, this is what it is. You're just what it is, or spaghetti against the wall. But I'm more excited, really, about the book and touring with it and then writing another one. To me that's, I don't know, like that's where I am in my career, like this is the fun.
Speaker 1:This is more fun than than that. I'm just so excited that you kept the title you wanted and you got the cover you wanted, because I absolutely love it and I know that's subjective, right, when we're talking about art. I mean, just because I say something is good certainly doesn't mean that it is or is not. I'm saying this as a consumer. I absolutely love it. I just-.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Yeah, it was a real struggle and some people think that's me, that that boy is not me. It's not me on the car, I wouldn't oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I didn't want to cover do not put me on the cover, you know, and it's not because I'm modest, it's because it's it's not like who the fuck?
Speaker 1:am I? Who me? Oh my gosh, michael. I put myself on my, my fifth book, enough. I put myself on the cover with a very specific purpose. I didn't intend to it's not there anymore, by the way. But I put myself on there because I and I said no Photoshop, no, nothing, it wasn't. I had taken these photos for something else. It was like I felt like it was a good representation of me and my personality. I put it on the cover again just enough, I'm enough, without concealer, without Botox, without any of these things. And then, about a year later, I thought why the hell am I on there? Nobody knows who I am. This is stupid. So I changed. I changed it, it's. I'm not on there anymore.
Speaker 2:I mean, people do it. I don't do it all the time. I just didn't want. I just didn't want. It's weird enough to have a Reddit, a book about personal, because I don't want people to. I'm not the most interesting person on the planet. I really wanted to be. Here's an interesting story. It's not about me. I really feel like the book is not about me. It's about, uh, the details are mine, but the stories are everyone's and so I don't want.
Speaker 1:I don't want to be on the cover you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your perspective about these things changes and it's not to say one is right or wrong. I mean, there was a period of time where I felt like everybody was putting themselves on the cover and I I probably fell prey to that Like, oh, that's the, that's the thing to do, right? So that's what I did and I I still have authors who put their faces on the cover and cool, do whatever you want to do, just make an intentional decision and go with it. You can change it later if you're, if you're an indie author, so well. Thank you so much. I will link everything in the show notes. I hope we can chat again when your next one comes out, if not before.
Speaker 2:I'd love to Really thank you so much. I love talking about writing, so this was really good for me, yeah.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.
