Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing. Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
Ep 107: Author Marketing Strategies with Jenn Hanson-dePaula
Click Here to ask your book writing and publishing questions!
In this episode, I speak with the legendary Jenn Hanson-dePaula about strategies authors are using today to promote their books.
Learn how to create content that resonates with your target readers and get greater clarity on the vital role of empathy in crafting messages that engage readers across genres—from fiction to nonfiction to poetry to memoir.
We also unravel the complexities of platforms like Substack and the impact of AI on content creation, offering practical advice for maintaining authenticity while leveraging time-saving new technologies.
Finally, discover how focusing on building a dedicated core fan base can revolutionize your marketing efforts, rather than chasing after a massive audience.
With actionable tips and a fresh perspective on the role of algorithms, you'll be inspired to enhance your book marketing strategy and connect more authentically with your audience as we head into 2025!
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Write the Damn Book Already is a weekly podcast featuring interviews with authors as well as updates and insights on writing craft and the publishing industry.
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Welcome to the Write the Damn Book Already podcast. My name is Elizabeth Lyons. I'm a six-time author and book editor, and I help people write and publish powerful, thought-provoking, wildly entertaining books without any more overthinking, second-guessing or overwhelm than absolutely necessary. Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory. If you're anything like me, I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most potent ways we connect with one another and that your story, perspective and insights are destined to become someone else's favorite resource or pastime. For more book writing and publishing tips and solutions, oh and plenty of free and low-cost resources, visit publishaprofitablebookcom. Hi, my friend. I'm going to do probably the shortest introduction I've ever done, because it doesn't even need one, and I just want to get right into this episode.
Speaker 1:Jen Hanson DePaula I've talked about her, I've interviewed her before. She's become a very good friend of mine, Having been in the music publicity industry and now the author publicity and marketing space in collective. She's been in these industries for over two decades. She's the only person I turn to because I just love her so dearly when it comes to what's working and what's not working and what's coming down the pike in author marketing. She and I share some very core beliefs when it comes to author marketing and the industry as a whole, based on not just our experience but the experience of all of our clients and all of our friends who are in this space people we talk to day in and day out and I wanted to get her on to talk about what she saw work and see the air quotes I use them all the time, but work and not work in 2024 and some things to stress less about and some additional ways to just make this journey fun, Because, as I've said a million times and will continue to say, marketing a book is a marathon, not a sprint.
Speaker 1:It is a journey, it is an adventure. There is no magic bullet to any of it, but, that being said, I'm always looking for well, what are the things that I can stop stressing about? What are the things I can maybe stop doing? What are some new fun things I could consider doing? And Jen brings it all to today's episode, so let me just bring her to you. All of the resources that I mentioned that we mentioned are in the show notes links to find out more about Jen, to follow Jen on Instagram she has an incredible Instagram and TikTok account where she posts tons of author tips for the introverted, for the extroverted, for the somewhere in between. If you haven't yet defined how you are in averted sense, I promise she has something for you. So be sure to check that out and give her a follow, and let's just get right into it Now. Can you hear like a weird buzzing noise? No, Okay, my feet under the table. If I could show this, I would are in a massager.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:Because I went to the Usher concert last night. Jen and I was in the pit, as they say. You were not, I was. I'll send you video later. Oh my gosh, I didn't know I was going to be in the pit. My friend's friend is the saxophone player for Usher. Wow. And so we got these tickets, thinking for sure we'd be like at the third level, like the back of the back of the back.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:So it's like I have good news and I have I'm not sure news. The good news is we have the tickets are VIP because they were picked up at will call, so we didn't know, before getting the I'm not sure news is we're pulling a. George is the way it was phrased. George is my son, who goes to all these concerts, and he always goes in the pit and it's always. You take your life into your own hands. Yeah, yeah, and what I had to take into my own hands was my feet.
Speaker 2:Yes, we are of a certain age now where our feet are, and I was wearing boot flat boots?
Speaker 1:I wasn't even so. My feet are in the massager under the table. That's hilarious.
Speaker 2:No. So there's air supply and then there's usher.
Speaker 1:Right, who knows what? No, I don't know. And I'm going to my seventh air supply, like for everyone Listen, if you're listening and you, I can go from air supply? You might, if you're old enough to know air supply is you?
Speaker 2:might think it's not a rock concert and you would be incorrect. It's. You know so many of those. I lived in nashville like there was just like this mass exodus from la to nashville for musicians and it's like, oh, there's the lead singer to death leopard, oh there's the you know, like, and you just see all of these people on the street and it's like it's one of the weirdest things to see, like the lead singer to Metallica at Disney world you know like with his kids.
Speaker 2:you know like we when we were at events and stuff like that, and so it's kind of like seeing them out in real life. It's so odd.
Speaker 1:I feel like Kiss had it right, because they wore the makeup. So when they went out in public you didn't you really didn't know who they were.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, like they.
Speaker 1:They had the whole incognito thing down before it was cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I don't know Anyway my God Okay.
Speaker 1:So I'm really excited to chat about this, though, like what worked and let me be clear what the word works. I mean, you and I get along so well because we both have such a similar well for a lot of reasons, but in this space, because we have such a similar philosophy about what works for one person will not work for another person. There is no tried and true nine-step formula to a million sales and notoriety and being able to be friends with Usher like to come back to that whole thing. Right, there's no. However, and let's add to that you and I have shared our mutual I don't know dislike of words like should. Must you have to need to?
Speaker 1:all that, yes. That being said, I think we can agree that, with this market being so saturated, with there being so many books out there and coming out every single week, if you are not willing to try something or some things plan A, b, c and all the way till you have to start the alphabet again it's going to be challenging to get the word out about your book, unless somebody gloms onto it, who happens to have a huge audience, and they mention it, and even then it's kind of a flash in the pan, exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and so go, no, go for it.
Speaker 1:Well, so I'm just excited to hear because this is all you do all day, every day, and it's something that I think every author, whether traditionally or indie published, is wondering okay, what now? Because there are so many assumptions made about well, if I go with a traditional house, I'm going to get their pub, their publicity group, and it's like no, probably not, um, or not not to the degree that you think that you will, and it's like what, what can you do, though? What are the options for different people, and what is working well, what's like a new thing that you're seeing that's creative and fun for people, that maybe is working better than at first you thought it might.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what I love about this is that, yes, it is kind of looking back to see, okay, what were some things that did work, but then also looking forward, you know, since we're towards the end of the year and since technology changes every other minute, you know it is just, it's not something where we can hang on for dear life for the next two years, you know to to say, okay, yes, this is going to be my plan and, you know, this is what's going to work, because it does change. And so I think the very the thing that authors, I think, and especially as it comes to social media, to technology, to everything we're about 20 years in with the use of social media, and how it was used 20 years ago versus how it is now is obviously complete. It's a world of difference. And I think within those 20 years, we've kind of finally started to catch on some solid truths that I think we can always hang our hat on, and most of these are kind of like philosophy and mindset things that we need to focus on. So the very first thing is realizing that we have got to approach our marketing, our social media, whatever it is, as a business.
Speaker 2:For authors, it is something that meant you know like I know I've worked with creatives my entire life All we want to do is to go and sit and write. All we want to do is go and perform our music or just do all these things. But you and I know that as business, you know like or just do all of these things. But you and I know that as business, you know like what might be looked upon as like business owners. We have to market. We have to let people know that we exist, that our services exist.
Speaker 2:And the same approach is with authors or with musicians or with our you know artists or photographers. We have to let people know that we exist. And even though we are creatives, that does need to happen. And I see a lot of pushback from authors especially who say I just want to write. I didn't sign up for this marketing bit and my heart goes out to you and I totally understand. But this is my tough love. I want you to succeed and reap all the benefits of your book. Is that you have to kind of have this mindset of I need to reach out to people, I have to put myself out there, it's part two of the writing.
Speaker 1:So it's not just you can and this is what I'm always trying to explain Like you can absolutely write a book and just put it out and then go about your life and if it hits, and hits, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. But for all the people who say that they'd be fine with that in the end the majority of them are not fine with that they say it as a protective mechanism and then the book goes out and it doesn't go anywhere because they talk about it once or twice or even five times, which just you know is not enough. I mean, and it's not that there's there, it's technically never enough. Exactly, most authors aren't talking about their books nearly enough.
Speaker 1:Interestingly, because of the way the algorithm works and filters things out Exactly, and so I like to change, and you have such a great take on this marketing. It's like we're so allergic to the term. I am, too by the way marketing and sales, because the first thing we think of is all the stereotypes that come along with force and taking people's money for art, and there are all these things about the mind that start playing with us. How do you I want you to say, how do you talk about market? What is marketing? Marketing?
Speaker 2:is letting the people know that you exist, but it's not just anyone. You're not just letting anyone and everyone know that you exist. You're talking to the people that you know are looking for your book or that would benefit from your book.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't write a book and are you talking to them? I'm leading you.
Speaker 2:Are you?
Speaker 1:talking to them by saying hi, I'm Elizabeth, I wrote a book, buy it.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely not. So this is something like especially when we talk about creating content, everyone thinks, ok, I just have to post something. I have to, you know, hold my book up so that they see the cover and all that. But really, what we really need to do is to address the symptoms that people are looking to solve. So if you're writing nonfiction, for example, let's say, you are writing a book on ADHD, like they're, you know, like All of these things that are included with ADHD, it's not having a post that says this book is going to help get over your ADHD. It's going to address all these struggles. Go buy it. A strategic post is saying if you're struggling with paying attention at work, here are five things that might be the cause of that. You're addressing the symptoms within your content. You aren't promoting and saying my book because half the time people don't even know what you know. Like if someone didn't even have ADHD on their radar, they wouldn't even pay attention.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm going to interrupt you to say that there is an account and if I can find it, I'll link it in the episode notes. This is how they got me, because it's about ADHD. I don't even know if he's an author, but if he will. On the reel says oh God, I'm going to paraphrase, but 25 uncommon signs of ADHD in women. And I was like, oh, I watched it, I think I had 26. It was 25, but I'm sure I had 26. Um, to your point, things like that, just making that connection where subliminally and we'll talk about fiction in a second but subliminally, the user, the reader, the perspective reader, the human being, is like, oh they, they get, they get it, they get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly they, and that's part of marketing. It's you showing readers that you understand what it is that they're going through.
Speaker 2:Exactly and when we can communicate in a way that shows why our book is the answer to their problem. It's not showing them why they should or why you should buy my book. It's like this is why this book is going to help you with X, y and Z. Or you might not have known that not being able to pay attention at work was a symptom of ADHD, but here it is. That is when they can see themselves in that post. What is missing from so much of marketing is empathy. People want to feel seen.
Speaker 2:They want to feel like they aren't, to feel like they don't want to feel labeled Exactly, and so when they can see someone who posts, how did they get in my head. How did they like, are they reading my email? You know like what, what's going on? And that's like when you can really just dig down to the essence of what is it that your ideal reader is looking for. What are some of those problems? What are some of those symptoms? What are those questions that they have and how can I address? How is my book the solution to this problem? And then within, like fiction, yeah, this is where it gets dicey.
Speaker 1:And I, because you work with a lot of fiction authors. So, you know, I want, I want us to get your take on fiction poetry memoir Like. I think nonfiction is actually the simplest, it is Right. You don't, you can be faceless. You can have a lot of carousel posts that are just information based. It's when we start getting into fiction, poetry, memoir. I'm trying to think what else? But those are the three that I think get even more complicated. But there are also so many ways to be creative that you propose.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and so that is something within. So when we even talk about fiction, poetry, fiction, poetry and memoir, we need to sink into emotion. 95 of our buying is made by emotions that we feel, and so when we can lean into, so let's, let's talk about memoir, memoir, like I worked with an author who she was raised in the 1950s in a Catholic cult and this where they were like, completely, they bought a plot of land in the middle of Boston. It had walls, like we're talking a full blown cult, and she talked about, you know, like, the fear that she had about the abandonment that her parents had. You know like she led into these, these feelings that she had about the abandonment that her parents had. You know like she led into these, these feelings that she was feeling. And these are feelings that other people can identify with. Yeah, even if they weren't in a cult, exactly, but they kept like some people who love the true, you know, the, you need to remember. You know like people buy books for different reasons, but the main thing is that that emotion, that feeling that they're looking for, and it's like I've recently.
Speaker 2:I've always known that there was this genre called dark academia, but I never got into. I was like dark academia, you know I I heard about this, you know like, but I thought, oh, it's kind of like brainy, you know, like kind of you know deep thinking, you know books, but but it is like psychological thriller set on like college campuses and it's really moody and they're like it's but yeah, and so it's like. When I heard that I was like, oh, that sounds amazing. And so when you hear those words, it's laying into these emotional keywords where you can kind of draw out those feelings that people are looking for and you kind of tie it into. Okay, this is what the book is about and you don't need to give everything away. You can come up with a really great hook that you can just lean into over and over and over again. That is going to kind of sink into their subconscious and go this is exactly what I want.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's like the narrowing down right. So there are so many. I'm more familiar most familiar with it, I should say in the romance category. There are especially on Amazon, because Amazon has different categories from, say, but there are so many categories in the romance it's.
Speaker 1:Even if you go into erotica there are like 35 categories, right, I mean it's stuff you've like never heard of. But where it becomes really effective and I'm understanding this more and more and more and we're going to talk about this in your group, in the author circle in a couple of weeks about the Amazon ads is when you know what your audience is like, your target reader is searching for and you can speak to that, whether it's on Amazon or on social like, in your book description?
Speaker 1:Yes, when you know what they're searching for and you can include it in your Amazon description or your other listing description if you're going through IngramSpark, draft2digital, like, whatever you're doing, and you can use it in social media, because what people don't? This is where I want to really pick your brain about. I hate that phrase and you know it.
Speaker 1:I'll do it with you all day about how people are using social media, because it's to your point earlier on to come a little bit full circle on that it's shifting so much to where I think what's really effective for a lot of people is playing to what the social media platform wants, Right. So, right now, hashtags and I want to ask your thoughts on this, but I'm hearing over and over again it's becoming less like. I know in a couple of weeks you won't be able to search, you won't be able to follow a specific hashtag anymore on Instagram. So it's less about hashtags and more about keywords, and Instagram can read your keywords on your carousel posts and also in your caption. And so, knowing what, being able to fit that all together, yes absolutely.
Speaker 2:And the thing about marketing and the way that I approach it is that marketing isn't just social media. Marketing is an awareness building tool. Social media the way it works best is to make people aware that you and your book or your service or whatever it is that you're promoting exists. Some people might fight me on this one. It's not the best place to constantly sell. You can let people know that you have books or services. Books are a low cost, low risk entryway into like if you write nonfiction into your broader services and all of that.
Speaker 2:But when we focus our, when we can really hone in and focus on our messaging what it is that our book is about, who it is that we're speaking to and how they respond to it or how they search for it with using those keywords or the keyword phrases, you can use that combo everywhere. You can use that within your social media, you can use it in your ads, you can use it in your marketing copy, you can use it on your website everywhere. Because when we think about you know, like, if you have a glass of water, jen, do we seriously? We have the same cup. We have the same cup, just a different color. How fitting, because we are kind of like just the same person, but we are no 100 and I feel like they're.
Speaker 1:Yours is just a slightly lighter green. They're both green, I don't this is. This is beige To me. I'm going to go with green because it makes me feel like we're like more in sync. There you go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when you have, when you deliver information, the water that's in this cup is what I want. The delivery system can change. The water can go into a paper cup, into a champagne flute, into a coffee mug. The delivery system can change, but the water itself is a what you want and B that is what is going to stay the same. So when we what you offer.
Speaker 1:So, it's the simplest hub of the whole process, I feel, because who you are and what you're offering is doesn't change. I mean, of course we evolve, okay, fine, but from an essence level those things don't change. But where you, you know, I think, a common. Let me ask you this I'll first finish the thought which I have a problem doing. Lots of times, authors think they need to be everywhere. It's like, oh my God, I don't know where to be, so I'm just going to be everywhere, and burnout happens very quickly with that, because you're trying to manage all of these platforms, including a newsletter right.
Speaker 1:Including blogs, when they're your own ecosystem. They all function differently. They all have a different purpose, they all have a different reach, all those sorts of things, and so you're trying to. You can't just take one thing and necessarily blast it out to all of the places in the same way and have get the same result. What's something that started working better and see the air quotes in 2024 that surprised you, whether it was a particular platform or an approach on a platform.
Speaker 2:Something that I have been seeing a lot of authors sign up for and be a part of is Substack. It's that has been kind of the big thing this year, and here's, here's my take. I will never tell an author you know, like who is loving the experience, to say, oh no, don't, don't do that. If they find that to be what is getting them sharing content to like even approach the idea of having a newsletter, I am all for it.
Speaker 1:But I know exactly where you're going and I love it, but it's not.
Speaker 2:The outlet is not the answer. The outlet is not the answer and it's not always going to be the home run that you automatically think it's going to be. And I am a big fan of the traditional newsletter because you own those connections. Substack is still rented space. Yeah, substack is still rented space, and I could argue that for Substack you have to turn out 10 times more content than what you would with a traditional newsletter. And with a traditional newsletter you can automate, you can segment, you can do all sorts of things, whereas Substack you're very limited with that.
Speaker 1:And I think people get really attracted to the allure of the monetization of Substack, which I fully understand. Also, though, number one, there's an assumption If you don't even have an email list, where are you? Substack is not, in my understanding, is not a great marketing tool for you because there are so many. So, just like Amazon will show books related to you, substack will show Substacks related to the ones that people already listen to, and, yes, you can be found that way, but for someone to be willing to part with even $5 is a big deal, because they might be looking to do that with their having to decide between three or four different sub stacks. If I want to upgrade to the paid version, exactly, and now the pressure is on you as the creator to keep them.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. And the other thing to realize, and I'm right with you, I understand authors and creatives wanting to monetize, I understand that. But once you get to a certain you also need to remember that you are going to be paying Stripe, which is the payment processing system that they use, plus Substack, because, again, this is rented space.
Speaker 2:you are going to end up paying more in those payments like, as opposed to subscribing to, like flow desk or mailer light or another you know like, and so it's realizing that it's not just free money coming your way and it's not something that comes right away, and it's like. I even saw someone post on on tiktok earlier. You know they said this marketer said oh, sub stack is the. You know the. The answer to it all and all of these comments were in the back. You're like no, it's already so, like, oversaturated and I'm sick of being notified every time. You know like, uh, saying hey, you should also follow this person and this person, and you know, like all of these things. So it's not the perfect system.
Speaker 1:Nothing is.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely not, and that is the thing we need to remember that. The basic way that I like to simplify book marketing is to realize that we need an awareness building tool, which could be Instagram, that could be a podcast, that could be speaking events. Whatever it is. I usually say pick at least one, but no more than three to focus on at a time, just to save your hair from being pulled out.
Speaker 2:Then we need to be intentional on where to lead them next, and that is where I always say lead them to a newsletter or to your website, because, yes, are some people going to follow you or see your post on Instagram or listen to a podcast and go I need that book and immediately buy, absolutely. Is that going to be the standard? No, you have fast buyers that will buy right away and you have slower buyers. The slower buyers that doesn't mean that you've lost the sale.
Speaker 1:It just means that they need a little more time and information, and sometimes convincing, to make the buy Sometimes a free moment, like you hear something while you're driving down the road and then you forget, or whatnot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and so it's being intentional with realizing, okay, these awareness building tools, which you know, substack, social media, all that leading them to where you want them to go to your website, to your newsletter and then to a purchase, and having a process in between, you know, to lead everyone to these places is how you can create a marketing system that actually leads people to a sale. And I think the days what we're you know like, even talking about, you know like what hasn't worked. Obviously, throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks is not, has never worked. And so I think, especially since more and more people are getting frustrated with social media, that are feeling overwhelmed with that, they are looking to outlets to see, okay, is this home for me, you know like, is the? Is Substack the answer?
Speaker 1:Is Threads the answer. If you're going to be frustrated, be frustrated somewhere you enjoy. Yes.
Speaker 2:And give it time. I have to tell you the other day enjoy yes and give it time. I have to tell you the other day I had a client who I've been coaching her and she had been. She had posted three times in the last three weeks and she was like it's not working, I'm not getting any followers. I was like, girl, you got to give it time. I always say, give it at least a minimum a month.
Speaker 1:Minimum. Oh, and that's not even. No, you can't.
Speaker 2:No, so don't even like it's. You cannot make a rational and well educated decision when you just spend time and when you just kind of pick and poke at things. You can't. You have to put the time into it If you really. If, let's say, you want to go whole hog on Instagram, dedicating your time to creating great posts on Instagram, and it's not I'm not saying you have to post three times a day or you know anything like that and this is also something thinking about looking forward we need to realize that, with AI coming into play more and more and I know authors have a whole like there's the AI writing side of it, but then there's also the AI content creation side of it.
Speaker 1:I'm like falling out of my chair right now.
Speaker 2:It's just going to create even more. This is not to be Debbie Downer, by any means, and this is why I really want to stress we have got to focus on the quality of our content. Why are readers going to be drawn to what it is that we are, what our book is about? Why is it for them? And really focusing more on that, rather than, you know, following the latest trend or, you know, just trying to compete against AI because you're going to that's a losing battle. It really, really is.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad you brought this up, because the topic of AI is a contentious one in the creative community and I get it, because, as a writer myself and as a creative person, I am not someone who is going to ever write books with AI, and that's not me saying that that's bad, I'm just Well, it is kind of, but I think is there a place for it in some genres Perhaps and I don't know that anyone who's writing books with AI is writing them in full with AI. A lot of times, they're using them to get something started and then they're finessing it. But we can debate whether that's good or bad. The bottom line is, for me personally, I like to write my books from on a blank page, like without AI. However, the thing about AI that I want to have become more of a conversation among creatives is how incredibly helpful it can be as a productivity source, right, so it's not it can take the human. It does take the human out of it, but in order to help streamline the process for authors who or other creatives who are like, oh my God, to do this, whatever this is, takes me eight hours. It doesn't need to take eight hours. There are ways to work with the system, because I think when we're talking about marketing, we are talking about working with a system, right, and I was talking to Tracy Thomas a couple of episodes ago, who does a lot of literary events, and she said something that I thought was very important, which was you know, think about when you're on a book tour.
Speaker 1:Why are you going to Nashville? Why are you going to LA? Why, what's the choice there? How does that like? Where are you doing your events? Because it's not a simple hey, I've got a 40 stop tour and I mean like I'm just throwing dark board and where do I go?
Speaker 2:It's kind of the same thing when it comes to AI You've got to kind of play the game, if you will, of making all this stuff work Well, and that's where I talked about this in the author circle, our membership about how is there such a thing as ethical AI, how is there such a thing as ethical AI and, within that, saying that many authors, we are alone in our little writing corners and it's very isolating.
Speaker 2:If you can kind of look at AI as a water cooler buddy, like in an office where you can bounce some ideas off of, or just kind of getting some feedback on something, or saying you know, like this sentence doesn't sound right, is this grammatically correct, or you know right, things like that.
Speaker 2:I think that that is something that AI can be very, very helpful for is like that, that bouncing ideas off it or even just kind of getting a different perspective. And if you are new to like writing, or if you're and you don't know many people that you can reach out to to get some ideas, or you know whatever it is, this might be a great stepping stone, you know, to doing that. And I do think that there are some ways that AI can help within the management of you know content or you know like helping you come up with you know different again perspectives or ideas, but when we just kind of the mistake of create a 30 day content calendar for me, you know, like that's where it. That's where you're going to be just contributing to the noise on social media.
Speaker 1:I like to use it for things like and you have to say a vault is an understatement you have vaults plural of templates within the author circle that are so incredibly helpful because people who are a little bit new to creating that content they can use those as a basis so they're not starting with a completely blank page when it comes to Canva or whatever other. I mean, my whole life revolves around Canva, but it's so helpful to have author-specific templates to go with. One thing I've done that has worked somewhat it doesn't always work great and also it's learning how to prompt AI properly and, of course we could do a whole episode on AI.
Speaker 1:So that's not what this is, but I have used it to say give me 10 ideas about reels that I could make for aspiring authors writing fiction who are experiencing writer's block, and they'll give me the ideas. And of the eight that it gives me, or whatever I've asked for, five of them are ridiculous. Three of them have potential and I'll finesse one of them and I'll combine it with another one and I'll go that feels fun and then I'll add my own little touch to it. So that's sometimes how I use it to not create content, certainly not create a content calendar, which tends to be quite sterile. And I feel what have you seen in 2024 that you see carrying into 2025 in terms of authors really branding their own personality, no matter the genre they're writing, but really bringing their own personality into their marketing via social media?
Speaker 2:I think that we have finally kind of realized that we don't need to follow and mimic what everyone else is doing, especially within books, and I think, like when we can kind of look outside of the book world for inspiration. That is the key word here. The inspiration is what can prompt those ideas so that you can infuse your personality, so you can kind of show a little bit more of what makes you unique as a person, as a writer, as a creative. Because when people, when they kind of connect with you as a person, they're like, hmm, I think I might like their books or their writing style or their, you know like what it is that, and that's why I always encourage especially fiction writers to share what they're. You know like what it is that, and that's why I always encourage especially fiction writers to share what they're reading. Because when someone, it's so simple, it's just so simple. And when people see, oh my gosh, she likes that book too, I, yes.
Speaker 1:I want to hear what else it's like, you're like, I want to be friends with her and then you end up seeing more, checking out her profile and going, oh my gosh, she writes as well. And that's the connection piece Absolutely, and you just want to support them as a yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that is something where I think, especially like what we're seeing on within authors, that I'm seeing on threads that they're really developing like this, this author, you know connection community there. I see that on Instagram as well and on TikTok it's. It can be either.
Speaker 1:My, my name.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, exactly, but it's some. It's something where you have to figure out, because I know some authors who say I absolutely do not want to be on Instagram and some who say I absolutely do not want to be on TikTok and where they, like, some have found a home on TikTok, some have found a home on Instagram. It does not mean that you have to be everywhere. You have to find your home, and this is something else that I am definitely kind of seeing as being a focus, especially within the new year, is really curating these communities. It's really.
Speaker 2:It's not so much about, yes, we want to reach as many people as possible, but realizing, like, if we have a group of like 500 people that buy our book, no matter what, like you say, I have a book coming out and they're like yes, I'm pre-ordering it, I'm already buying it, knowing that these 500 people are going to be talking to their friends about this book.
Speaker 2:And there you've reached a thousand people, and then you've reached. It's realizing that you don't have to focus on yourself reaching a million people, and then you've reached. It's realizing that you don't have to focus on yourself reaching a million people when you can just focus on connecting with this core group of people and then they share with their friends. Word of mouth is key and when authors only look at what the month after their book release, after that release date, when I work with authors who have a long term vision for their book, we're talking a year at minimum, year or two that they are going to see those sales, that they are going to see that growth and that progression. When authors can't look past that release date and if they don't do well immediately following that release date and they just kind of throw in the towel, it's so sad.
Speaker 1:And here's the thing about word of mouth, because and this is not a popular statement, what I'm about to say, but I am known for saying word of mouth is your best marketing tool, right? It's also sort of you can't rely on it because you can't control it. So you can air, quote to a degree, control ads you can. You know some of these things, but we can't control word of mouth. And so why one book like I was talking to? Um, the episode from last week is with Jane Costello. So Jane is based in the UK. She's written 15. She's now working on her 16th book. She writes under a pseudonym as well as her own name. She's got two lines here.
Speaker 1:She was talking about her second book that came out under the pseudonym Catherine Isaac. She thought was going to do remarkably. She had built a large audience. Everything was great. She was so proud of this book, the book launched in March of 2020. Enough said right. Yeah, she was scheduled to go on Graham Norton, who's a very high profile. Right, huge, he had a book club and she was the featured guest, and she got a call the night before that the interview had been canceled because, of course, they stopped doing all you know, all in-person events and the book completely flopped by her. You know those are her words completely flopped.
Speaker 1:Important is, understandably, we're all myself included looking for that magic bullet, and I know no such thing exists, but I'm often asking people. I mean, we started this conversation with me saying what's working, what's not working. Underneath all of that, it's so important that there's an understanding that whether or not something works is not indicative of whether or not the writing is good in all cases. There are so many other factors at play, most notably the freaking algorithm. Like that's all. We all want to blame the algorithm.
Speaker 2:So I'll say something that's you're the algorithm.
Speaker 1:You are your own algorithm, Because what you interact with I said say more, not say it again Louder for the people in the back. There you go Also, please expand.
Speaker 2:Sorry, no. So saying that is what the algorithm does, is it? There are two different factors playing in here what it is that you consume, what you comment on, what you are taking in, but also what you're putting out. So if I am only commenting on cute dog videos and interior design and that's what I'm consuming, when I put out, you know, like book content, it's showing it to. That's what. Yeah, it's not getting in front of the right people. So you have it's this give and take, because you have to know what it is that you are putting out there and you have those keywords. You know exactly what it is that people are going to respond to. But then you also have to engage with people. You have to be doing this other side of it as well. You are your algorithm.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is huge. Thank God we somehow landed on this, because I saw something the other day and I was meaning to ask you about this.
Speaker 1:So I saw something the other day that said if you click on the magnifying glass, the discover to see what your discover page shows you, if what it's showing you is not in the vein of what the people you're trying to reach. So in my case I mean, let's just say it's people in the book world. Let's keep it very high level and say people in the book world, then that means that it's the algorithm is not showing my post to people in the book world. So I clicked on my discover page and, sure enough, it's all DIY how to make my hooded eyelids not look hooded, how to make my hooded eyelids not look hooded, how to put on contour without looking like a crazy person, and, um, a lot of cute puppies and some newborn babies. And I thought, well, holy shit.
Speaker 1:Now I don't know if that's true, but I feel like you're confirming this, that that's what the yes, I love consuming that as a human being. Should I not hear the word should, but should I have? Should I be looking at that stuff from a different account? Like, is this part of the strategery, as it were, of the social media is look, I need to be commenting on like and I? I am them too, yeah, but obviously the algorithm is showing me what it's showing me. I am them too, yeah, but obviously the algorithm is showing me what it's showing me.
Speaker 2:It's you know. So here's something to remember the algorithm isn't out to get you. The algorithm's a machine we. It can only do what we tell it to do. It's not their sinister going. Ooh, how can I screw? With Elizabeth today, the whole purpose of the algorithm is to keep people on the platform.
Speaker 2:Yes, on TikTok. So what is what does it do? It shows you more info, it shows you more posts of what it is that you're interested in, what you're consuming, what you're engaging with. And so this is again where the two levers.
Speaker 2:The two levers kind of come in, where what we're putting out there, if you are kind of putting out very general content, like oh, here's, you know, this romance book, that's nothing you know, like that's not enough for the algorithm to kind of understand, it's like, okay, what kind of romance Is it? You know, steamy Is it? You know, like, if it's just kind of general people, you know like, if it's just kind of general people, general is what's contributing to the noise. That is what is just kind of making you yell into the void. But if you say, okay, this is a, a rom-com set in the 1990s, it's like a you got male meets friends with, you know, like where you have these.
Speaker 2:You know, like these keywords, I know exactly where it's kind of the you have this. You know, like these uh, quirky characters, that where you have these, can you see how that is different from here's this rom-com or that here's this romance book? So you have what it is that you're putting out there, but then what it is that you're consuming, because you want to interact with the people, that you want to consume this content. So, when you have this strategy of feeding the algorithm what it is that it needs to know to put you in front of the right people, correct?
Speaker 1:That is. So there's like I have a huge disconnect and this is what I've realized, and, going into 2025, this is affecting my strategy, and I don't even like the word strategy, right, we've talked about this because it feels so sterile and so transactional and it's not. But at the end of the day, my goal is to connect with. I mean it's, it is my business, right? So I have a huge disconnect between what I consume and who I'm trying to reach as a business owner. Slash author.
Speaker 1:It's not 180 degrees, but it's like 178.4, because I do love to consume the DIY stuff and so it just feeds it and I like it and I like it and I save it and I send it and I put it to my stories, which I think. So let me ask you a question Do we have to go all or nothing?
Speaker 2:No, I hear something because I'm the same way. Like I love to consume stuff on TikTok. I love, like there's just some dumb, hilarious stuff and it's funny because, like, I just kind of in this season, I'm like, okay, I need dumb and funny, I just need some of the, and so that's what I've been consuming on TikTok and I've noticed my views going down considerably. Like it's it isn't, but I'm I'm kind of in this, I don't care mood, I just need, I need this for for me right now. I need this for me right now. So, yeah, I mean, it's not that it can, it has to be all or nothing. Like, if you accidentally like a DIY, it's not going to, you know, put the algorithm down the toilet. But it is something where, like, if that is a majority of what you consume, maybe it is creating a personal Instagram account where you can, you know, like, take in those, you know that fun stuff, because, yes, it does affect what you know, like your, your visibility, and it's something where it's not, where, again, we want to not just put all of our cards on, like, oh, it's only what we consume, you know, like, on that side of things, it's needing to have a solid content strategy in place so that you're feeding it again.
Speaker 2:You know, like, what is it that my ideal reader is looking for? What is it that they are? What's going to spark their interest? What is it that's going to hook them? Because, also, you know, something that I think that people are also starting to kind of catch on is that there are two things. First, even though social media is like by and far my favorite way for especially new authors to get, you know like to start to build their community, within all of this craziness, we're starting to see how in-person and face-to-face opportunities are so powerful and how it can make a huge difference. So, for example, a friend of mine who's an author down in Nashville, she went to her first book fair, like she had her books at her book fair and she was like my God, I sold 150 books in one day and I was like, yeah, you know like it's there. There are a lot of people that are seeing like, okay, even just going to like some events where it'd be like book clubs or you know like whether it's, you know, like kind of interacting with other authors within like a meetup or other things like that, these in-person things where we can tie. We're not putting all of our eggs into the social media basket, but that is kind of like where people can find more information about us and kind of using it as, again, it can be a broader reach, you know, a worldwide reach, but where you can also kind of supplement where you have like.
Speaker 2:If you aren't going to be like in-person, it's maybe doing some podcast interviews, maybe it is writing some guest articles or some, you know, being a guest or thinking of different ways. It's pairing it with something and realizing that the people that you are already connected with. So let's say again, kind of going back to those 500 people, right, it's not dismissing them and just saying, oh, I got to gather more, I got to get more, more, more, more people. And this is a mindset shift that I've had to make. I did many years ago. It's like I am focusing on these people that I'm already connected with. That is where I'm making my focus, if I can get more people and let people know what it is I have. Or if you're saying these new books are coming, great, come on in, I'd love to have you join. But it's not dismissing the people that are already in the room.
Speaker 1:And I think that's, like you know, to bring this conversation full circle to Usher, which is where we started. One of the things that I was noticing about this concert while I was there because this isn't a concert, to be clear, that I potentially would have I might get some confusion over this but bought tickets to and I was super happy to go, by the way, and it was incredible. I was fascinated by how well he knows his market.
Speaker 1:So, there was a portion and it wasn't short. There was a portion of this concert. If anybody listening has been to an Usher concert recently, this was the past, present, future tour. To be clear, that was 1,000% not child friendly. I had my oldest daughter, who's 25, on FaceTime because she wasn't able to go and she was very upset with me. So I said, okay, I'll do the next best thing and I'll FaceTime you. I think there were tears, I think she was actually crying. She's like my life, no, like so upset that she wasn't there. Anyway, there was a portion that I was FaceTiming her and she was seeing everything going on and I said I know you're 25, but I have to call you back.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's the virtual, like putting reaching over to cover their eyes, a hundred percent Like I, was, like the person I was with actually reached over and covered the lens of the phone. It was like Gracie, this is little Gracie. Gracie cannot see this this is unbelievable and I had said no, it's okay, grace and I have a really amazing, unique relationship and Grace actually wrote I don't even know how you do this, but she wrote on the FaceTime, do we? And I said okay fine, I'll call you back.
Speaker 1:The point is if, if Usher were thinking, oh my gosh, I have to sort of please everyone in this massive and it was a massive stadium, it would have been a very vanilla show. Instead, he knows, this is this is how I'm going to come out, this is what I've introduced as my brand, so to speak. The majority of people who are some of these people have maybe never seen me in concert insert Liz raising her hand and might be a little bit like oh my God, what is happening on the stage right now? And I surely was like oh my God, I, how is she in that? I? Is that real Like? Is she in that position? I don't, what's he doing to her? Like these were the moments that I was at Point being. He knew that's what his core fans were coming to see.
Speaker 1:Yes, and he delivered it Exactly. And if it repelled a few people, it repelled a few people. And if a couple people left and were like, oh my God, have you ever been to an Usher show? Like you need to go to a show, yeah, then that's great too. But he nurtured the core of his fan base at that show Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I think to your point like I often use kind of the visual like if you're standing like on a on the shore of a lake and you have a handful of pebbles, you can toss them pretty far, but they make little poops, like it's just a little, a little point of impact. But if you were to take a boulder into the middle of the lake and slam it down, you have a massive point of impact right there, but the ripples reach even further.
Speaker 1:That's a great. I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's something where, like I've, I have authors that say, all the time I don't want to leave anyone out. It's like, okay, if you are trying to market to everyone, you're on the shore tossing pebbles, but if you have an ideal reader, someone that you feel like, and going back to your usher, these are my people. This is what they respond to, this is what they can identify with. This is why they follow me. That is throwing that boulder down and it is going to reach even more people than what you ever would.
Speaker 1:On the side, you know, like on the shore. But when one of your close friends says, oh my God, have you read? Fill in the blank, yeah, and then you're like well, I have like. The perfect example is All Fours by Miranda July.
Speaker 1:So, I had not heard of it. It's. Everyone else is talking about it. So I don't know how I hadn't heard of it. But I kept having people come on this show women saying, and when I ask at the end, you know what are you reading? Now Four of them said, ironically it was four of them said all fours and by the fourth one, and they said it kind of like I said, well, I don't even know what it's about. And they said, well, it's kind of about what you think it's about, given the title. And I said, well, I got to get it. Now, if I had never heard that and had just been walking through a bookstore and saw that that was one of the new fiction bestsellers, I probably would not have picked it up. Yeah, despite the fact that it's a bestseller.
Speaker 2:Yeah, back 20, 30 years ago, yeah, how we consumed or how we we became aware of books was going to a bookstore and you see, those, those, you know, like the end caps and all of that. But now we are being bombarded with oh, you should read this, this, this, this, this, this. We would think, oh, it would be easier now to be, you know, influenced by books. But when we need to trust people, we need to go. Okay, I have very limited time. What book is going to be worth my time? So when you hear from someone that says, oh, this book, whereas if you were to walk into a Barnes and Noble right now and see that you might go, eh, you know, I don't know what that is.
Speaker 1:Acotar which I only know the acronym now, because it's all over the Accord of Thorn and Roses, right, the whole Sarah J Moss series. The only reason I know about that is because my oldest Grace got obsessed with it and she said, mom, just read the first one. And I said, no, no, this is, it's like romanicy something, something like it's really next to something from the western. It's the last genre that you'd catch me reading. Yeah, and she borderline, bribed me, begged me, pleaded the whole thing, and I said, fine, I loved it I know I absolutely loved it.
Speaker 1:So now when I see a new sarah j moss, I kind of think, oh, okay, yeah, because it just comes.
Speaker 2:But otherwise I would have just thought, oh, it's just like a new trend, yeah exactly, and I think that when you hear and that's another powerful way that you can marry how social media can work wonderfully with these 500 people that you have Bingo, bingo, and that is where you get that word of mouth going, and again, word of mouth does take time, but you get these crazy addicted fans that just like, want more and more and more, and so it's not dismissing, and not not just you know throwing it, you know like all away after throwing it, all away after a week, that you don't get what it is that you want. You have to give it time. But it's also yeah, there's so many different little things that need to be considered but it's not something that is like, oh, if this one thing happens, it's all going to go down the toilet.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly Well, my God. Thank you, as always, for being my voice of reason in the marketing space, because I just I will. I, of course, link everything below and I can't wait to talk more about Amazon ads soon.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is going to be good. I'm on a team for that. When I told everyone that that was happening, the eyes that got wide. They were so excited and I said well, send me your questions, and so they were all like very, very excited about that.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm ready. I feel great about it. I really do.
Speaker 2:I really think that that if you want to talk about you know like things, that that is definitely something that I think, if you can really you know like kind of delivered this answer to this problem. It could be a big game changer for, but let me be very clear.
Speaker 1:Like it, like everything else right and everything else we're talking about today. It is an answer to a problem. I believe it's such a low hanging fruit answer. I really I think that I mean the things that I'm learning right now, and I've been running ads since 2018 and it's it's shifted, like everything else, and so I'm having to kind of roll with that and go what's new, what worked before doesn't work Now. There are more books, there's things work differently If you're willing to be patient with it right and see the experiment and kind of relish in it, as opposed to seeing someone post I made $150,000 in three days which, by the way, maybe they did but the part they're leaving out is that it took them a year to really hone their ad and really narrow down what's working, and we don't know what their ad spend is.
Speaker 1:We don't know the idea that you can just hop right in there and, within a month, be done. You know it's. It's not a thing. It is not a thing. So if we could just be willing to go okay, I know this isn't a magic bullet, but how do I? I think what people really want and this is what I want to create is a feeling that they're not spinning their wheels.
Speaker 1:They're not running on a hamster wheel, exactly so it's not that there's a nine step formula, but it's feeling like, okay, it's okay If after 15 days of ads, I've lost $7. Yes, that's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think with this it's also kind of like and this kind of fits into this vein of many authors that I talk to feel like they need to ask permission to do things and thinking, okay, I don't want to screw this up or I don't want to mess it up, and half of the time, you know, it's kind of like again going into this with the mindset of like knowing you're going to screw some things up, there's going to be some mistakes, and but it's not going to derail your entire writing career.
Speaker 1:And that's why I did the the Amazon thing that I'm, that I'm wrapping up, I'm in week 11, but I did a 12-week Amazon ads where I'm showing everything that I showed, everything that I did. Once this airs with screenshots, I'm like, oh God, we're in week six and things are going in the wrong direction, because I think it's important that people see that it's not a straight. You know it kind of looks like a stock market. It's like a bit of a mountain range.
Speaker 1:And so it's figuring out what works and then getting to the point anyway. I mean, this is a whole other episode, so we'll do this later.
Speaker 2:But even you know, like something that I think that many authors kind of dismiss and this ties into what you were just talking about but also within your overall marketing is knowing what it is that you want to accomplish. California is the whole length of the country, you would need to say, because, like the route that you would take from Maine to San Francisco is completely different than from Maine to-.
Speaker 1:San Diego, san Diego.
Speaker 2:So when you know, okay, yes, I want to sell like I had an author one time say I want to sell a thousand books, that would be just a dream come true she like that was just like the holy grail to her.
Speaker 2:But for some other authors that's just a drop in the bucket, right. And so when she was saying, so do I need to be on like all of the social media platforms? I was like, if your goal is a thousand books and you don't have it cause she didn't have a lot of time, she didn't have like, she had like five kids, and you know like it was just trying to get that, yeah, but it was just kind of like, okay, when you know you have this goal right and you know you have something to aim at and you're not kind of married to a certain timeframe, you can kind of give yourself some grace and you can kind of go okay, I don't need to drive myself into an early grave. I don't need to drive myself into an early grave trying to market this book. I can take my time, whereas if you want to sell 10,000 books in a month, you're going to have to go. You know like, go, go, go, go go.
Speaker 1:And God forbid, we have a pandemic strike or there's some major news thing. I mean that has derailed more short-term plans. And the authors who I talk to and it's more and more who are the most calm and just. They have accepted that this industry is a long game.
Speaker 1:And they've just settled in and we just make choices and some of them work out and some of them don't, and some things that work for other people don't work for us, and vice versa. And we think we're going to like TikTok and we don't, and we think we're never going to dance, and then we do, and all these things happen right, and all of that is just part of the journey.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, and I know that when you're brand new and it's your first book, it can feel like you're walking on eggshells. And that first book is such a learning experience. It is such an eye-opening experience. Look at it like your graduate school. You're not going to do it perfectly, but you can learn from it and then you can apply that to your next book. And then you can apply, you know like it just goes on and on Yep.
Speaker 1:We could talk about this forever. I know I love you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, you'll come back, I hope oh absolutely, we'll do like a mid-year check-in. I think that's a good idea.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 2:I was telling Marcus because we've been planning out our podcast and I'm like very first guest that we'll ever have, because it's only just ever been us. It's going to be Elizabeth. Oh stop it. Yes, so we need to schedule that. But then I was like there are all of these different things. I kept saying, well, I could talk to Elizabeth about that. And then oh wait, I could talk to her about this, and it was like I was like well, I could just have Elizabeth, she could just be my lone guest.
Speaker 1:Maybe we should just start our own other podcast.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just as kind of shooting the breeze on them.
Speaker 2:I love you too.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.
