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Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing. Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
Ep 106: Writing Rom-Coms with Jane Costello
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An episode that celebrates the joys of writing and never-ending search for inspiration, this laughter-filled chat with the incredibly witty Jane Costello, bestselling author of romantic comedies and women's fiction, also features the prep for the release of her upcoming novel (her fifteenth), It's Getting Hot In Here (Zibby Books, Feb 2025).
Peek behind the curtain into Jane's disciplined yet creative writing world, where structured planning and spontaneous inspiration meet. We reflect on the highs and lows of the publishing world, where timing and market trends often dictate a book's success. Jane's candid reflections on social media book events also bring a fresh perspective on connecting with readers and the creative community.
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Welcome to the Write the Damn Book Already podcast. My name is Elizabeth Lyons. I'm a six-time author and book editor, and I help people write and publish powerful, thought-provoking, wildly entertaining books without any more overthinking, second-guessing or overwhelm than absolutely necessary. Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is gonna come with the territory. If you're anything like me than absolutely necessary, because, let's face it, some overthinking, second guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory. If you're anything like me, I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most potent ways we connect with one another and that your story, perspective and insights are destined to become someone else's favorite resource or pastime. For more book writing and publishing tips and solutions, oh, and plenty of free and low-cost resources, visit publishaprofitablebookcom. Hi, my friend. One of the reasons I love doing this podcast so much is so incredibly selfish, and it's because I get to meet people who I want to be really good friends with in real life. This episode was a riot.
Speaker 1:Jane Costello's next book because she's written 15 already titled it's Getting Hot in here. I'm sorry that you two are probably going to be singing that song all the live long day comes out February 4th with Zibi Books, and to say that the themes in this book are relatable is the understatement of the year. Jane writes romantic comedy books that celebrate all that's great about midlife, thank God, and make you laugh about anything that isn't, which is fabulous, because I would rather be laughing than crying. Five of her novels were written under her pseudonym, catherine Isaac. We talk about that during the course of the conversation.
Speaker 1:It's Getting Hot. In here is a spicy rom-com about a 40-something TV exec and mom of two navigating perimenopause, a moody teenager, the to-do list from hell and some delightfully steamy thoughts about a handsome new colleague at work, which feels relatable, minus the delightfully steamy thoughts about a handsome new colleague at work, which feels relatable, minus the delightfully steamy thoughts about a handsome new colleague at work. Her novels have been translated into 26 languages. Her first book, which was published in 08, titled Bridesmaids not to be confused with the movie Bridesmaids, but I'm guessing just as funny became an immediate bestseller selling over a million copies. Jane lives in Liverpool, england, with her husband and three sons and, as I learned during our conversation, is also an avid DIYer. I'm linking everything that we talked about all the people, all the books, all the DIY products in the episode notes. So let's just get on with the conversation. It's Getting Hot In here comes out February 4th of 2025, which sounds so weird to say 2025, even though we're almost there, doesn't it.
Speaker 2:I know, although, yes, although it's she, it's, it's heading our way pretty fast, isn't it?
Speaker 1:quickly right? I mean, how many, how many more things can head our way quickly now, this is not your first road. Well, first of, let me just say that the title so much like Emma Gray's Pictures of you. Now I'm going to hear the song all day. Oh, of course, of course. So thank you for that. Okay, sorry about that. No, no, don't apologize. You should apologize too if anyone is my children, because all day I'm just gonna be well, I'm not gonna do it here, but I'm just gonna be singing it and they're gonna, yeah, not be.
Speaker 2:And kids, kids love it when you sing, don't they in my? Uh, yeah, in my. In my experience, my kids just love it how old are your kids?
Speaker 1:how many do you?
Speaker 2:have how old. I've got three boys, so I've got a 19 year old um a 16 year old and an 11 year old.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, and a fairly noisy, chaotic household, as you might really I was just talking to Tracy Thomas last week about because she has twin boys and they're five, and I have twin boys who are 23, and then I have another boy and I'm sandwiched by girls, so so it's girl, boy, boy, boy, girl, and we were talking about boys and so you have a 19-year-old. Yes, I feel like without my kids. Don't listen to my podcast. They don't get quieter.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know. No, I think the 19-year-old is sort of. I think you know. No, I think he's well. First of all, he's gone off to university, so maybe that yeah.
Speaker 2:But even when he's home, no, I don't know, I don't know. I think they go through this particular stage where, yeah, the house is just like crazy, noisy and you know, and I think as well, sort of 15, 16 is when the kids are like really argumentative and nothing. You say nothing. You say is right, everything. You know nothing, you know nothing, and it's quite. I mean, this is one of the things in the book that I sort of quite enjoyed depicting was that you know those teenage years where they just, yeah, you can't do a thing right basically, but then I think the clouds sort of part a little bit when they get older. I like to think so, anyway.
Speaker 1:Oh, I definitely like to think so. And to be clear, it's not the same kind of noise. It's not things crashing and breaking and screaming and they're wrestling see the air quotes because they're actually kind of beating each other up. It's now more because mine, my twins, are 23 and then my other son is 20, and it's just there's a lot of talking which I'm not mad about yeah, I, I, um, I mean, I wouldn't I.
Speaker 2:You see, I grew up in quite a noisy household and I sort of quite yeah, I did, yeah, yeah, and I sort of quite yeah, I did, yeah, yeah. We were always sort of debating around the dinner table.
Speaker 1:How many kids were there?
Speaker 2:Well, there were only there were two kids, but my dad is quite, you know, yeah, my, yeah, my dad's um, yeah, just look at quite a fun household, to be honest, and I, I, I like all that. So, yeah, christmases were crazy in our household, yeah, so, I can't wait, and I couldn't get used to a quiet household to be honest with you. We're all quite noisy.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting because, yeah, not to digress, but I am so excited for the holidays this year because they'll all be home, and I guess they're always all home but they will not.
Speaker 1:They come home from school or whatnot, but they're all here and occasionally they've been out of town anyway. Um, all right, let's get back to it's getting hot in here, because this is not your first rodeo at all. No, no, it isn't, and I so I went through and I had seen through the, the press release. You know that you're about your first book and we're going to talk about all these sorts of things. I'm going to ask you about them. I went on to Amazon just to kind of, and I just kept scrolling, jane.
Speaker 2:How many are there?
Speaker 1:And then you've got a pseudonym as well.
Speaker 2:So how many?
Speaker 1:in total, have you written at this point.
Speaker 2:Yes, so 15. And I'm about to put my finishing touches on my 16th at the moment, yeah, I've written a load, but yeah, they're different styles. So I've written 10 romantic comedies, which is what I write Jane Costello is the name I write my rom-coms under and then I write we call them emotional love stories, sort of family dramas that I write under the name Catherine Isaac and they will tend to deal with sometimes some sort of heavier themes really that aren't suited to the, you know, to rom-com territory. You know, so I've sort of covered some. You know, my first Catherine Isaac book was called you, Me, Everything and that dealt with a family and the impact of Huntington's disease. So you know, even though it was done with a light touch and it was a, you know, it's a love story. Clearly that's not a rom-com. So there's a difference really. But it's Getting Hot In here is very much. Clearly that's not a rom-com. So there's there's a difference really. But it's getting hot in here is very much, um, hopefully fun from beginning to end.
Speaker 1:I would say I'm so excited I don't even know what to do, like I, you know, um, diana was so kind. Oh no, it's Katie. Katie T sent me the the net galley, which I'm thrilled to have, and I'm admitting, admitting, I can't wait for the printed copy to arrive, because I feel like this is a book.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to get in bed and not get out until I've finished it. The themes are so relatable with the perimenopause and the midlife woman and et cetera, life woman and et cetera. And I'm so question, before I forget, because, given the perimenopause, I'm very likely to do so. Um, why the pseudonym? What was your decision maker on that to? To do that?
Speaker 2:I'm curious when people do that. Well, it was. I mean to be honest with you, there isn't this. We could have done it either way. I suppose you know it is a. It is a. I think if you've enjoyed a Jane Costello book, you're more than likely to enjoy a Catherine Isaac book as well. But there is this difference. Like I say, you know the, the, the, they deal with sort of themes that in the past have required a lot of research and they tended to be sort of book club type novels, you know. And whereas the rom-coms are very much, I mean this one is typical really, it's funny, it's fast paced, it's quite steamy in places, you know, it's got a different sort of vibe really. So that was the idea behind the two different names. But I mean it's been complicated over the years. Don't get me wrong. You know we made the yeah only because when I first, I mean I'd been Jane Costello for years, and the reason I I mean I'm digressing, but you know, maybe this is relevant, digress away.
Speaker 1:That's what we do Jane?
Speaker 2:That's what we do. I'd written nine rom-coms and they were all kind of about women in their late 20s finding love for the first time in various funny romantic ways and I loved writing them. But I got to my early 40s and I thought I really don't know how qualified I am now to write about something that's relatable, about somebody who's in their late twenties, and that was sort of why I diverted into writing in a different style really, and kind of drew a line under it. I thought, you know, that's a.
Speaker 2:At every event I went I mean, this wouldn't happen in the, in the US, but in the UK, uk I'd had a load of top 10 bestsellers and right, and you know. So every event I went to, people were coming up to me and saying, oh, when are you going to write another Jane Costello book? And you know we really loved them, we want something to make us laugh and blah, blah, and I I always resisted it because I thought I just, you know I can't, I couldn't, I'm not going to be able to convincingly get my head after that first one, or no, after I'd written nine after nine, okay.
Speaker 2:I'd written nine rom-coms and I then digressed into writing. The Catherine Isaac novels got you and people kept coming back to me and saying, when are you going to write another rom-com? Basically, um, and I resisted it until effectively last year when it finally occurred to me why don't I just write? I was write something about being a, you know, a perimenopausal woman in my late 40s and use everything I've learned as a rom-com author all those years ago and actually apply it to this wealth of material I have in my own life between you know, raising teenagers, perimenopause I haven't quite had a steamy affair with anyone at work, you know, but that bit I use my imagination for. You know, all the, all the stuff about, I don't know.
Speaker 2:There's themes in it about female friendship and the kind of friendships that we have by the time we reach our age. So all that's in there and I just as a result of which it was like I'd been building up to this book my whole career, really because I was just so much, yeah, I just loved. I mean, not every book I write feels absolutely joyous, because there are days when it's torturous, you know, when you can't, you know you've got a bit of writer's block or you're not sure where to turn, and sometimes it feels like you're trying to knit with spaghetti. You know to try and work out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and um, um and you know.
Speaker 2:So it's not always just this book. This book was joyous from beginning to end. I absolutely loved writing it.
Speaker 1:I really did so so what do you do when you get into that space where you feel like you're knitting with spaghetti or you have writer's block, however a person chooses to qualify that. What do you do? Push?
Speaker 2:on. I really do push on and I just think so much of it is is just staying the distance. I really do so.
Speaker 1:I will. Are you an everyday writer? Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Not at weekends, but you know, I just well.
Speaker 1:No, I just those days are for fun, jane.
Speaker 2:No no, no, no, no. Weekends are tend to these days you end up, I mean, I think, all authors these, the demands of social media and all the rest of it. So my, so I do tend to work at weekends, but I don't unless I'm on a deadline. I wouldn't tend to write because I think sometimes you need a bit of a break from your own head, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Uh, yes, every day. Sometimes I think I wish I could just take my head off my shoulders and put it on a shelf. Just let it rest there for a minute.
Speaker 2:Let it regenerate a little bit Regenerate right, Plug it in somehow and then put it back on my shoulders.
Speaker 1:I think that should be coming soon. I feel like that technology should be on the horizon. That'd be so handy, wouldn't it?
Speaker 2:It really would. Wouldn't that be wonderful? Yeah, it would. It's like I can't get rid of this thing right.
Speaker 1:I can't get rid of the thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I do feel like, certainly with my. I feel like I'm kind of sharpest in the morning and my head is like a, you know, like a phone battery and it's gradually drains throughout the course of the day. So I only ever write, I plug mine in in the morning.
Speaker 1:I'm the opposite with the phone. My phone is dead when I wake up and I must plug it in and let it.
Speaker 2:Okay, Well there seems to be nothing I can do with my head to make it go the other way around. It's just, basically, I am a morning writer, okay.
Speaker 1:All I know. For how long Do you have? Do you set a timer? Do you have a word? Do you just go till you? What's, your what's your process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am pretty well. I am strict because it's the only way. It's the only way I know how it gets done, if you know what I mean. And I can sort of reassure myself that I will definitely hit a deadline. So I plot everything out beforehand.
Speaker 1:You mean, like for what you're going to write the next day, or for the whole book, the whole book, the whole book. Have you ever? I'm going to interrupt you for a minute to ask you if you've ever watched the show New Girl. No, no, get it. Okay. So here's the thing. I have two shows that I watch and I don't know how popular it is in the UK. Do you know what it is?
Speaker 2:No, okay, it probably is I just no, go on, I'm going to give you a pass.
Speaker 1:There are certain people I won't give a pass and I'm like we'll talk again after you've watched New Girl, but I'm going to give you a pass because you're in the UK. So there are two series, tv series, that I watch on repeat, and those are friends and new girl. And typically when I have, I remember scenes from those shows when I'm reading a book or when I'm talking to someone or whatever, and I'll say, oh my gosh, this reminds me of that scene. Jane, everyone I mentioned they're like no, I don't watch it. Even friends like I don't watch it. And I think, oh God, I've got to come up with a new series. Like what?
Speaker 2:is everyone watching? I don't-. Well, I'm going to have to go and go and watch this now.
Speaker 1:I'm feeling completely compelled to-. Well, there's an episode. I'll send you the link. There's an episode where, if anyone listening does watch New Girl, please let me know. So I feel better about my life.
Speaker 1:But Jess and Nick and Schmidt go to this thing called Rumspringa or Rumspringa, I don't know what, I can't pronounce it correctly. But they go to this fair and Jess is not. She's very distracted because she starts her tenure the next day as the assistant principal, but so she's not really into something that she normally would be into. But a gentleman comes up and he's dressed in full period garb and she says I have so many questions for you. When were you born? Where were you born? What do you eat, what do you like, what do you do? And that's how I felt getting on the phone, getting on this call with you, like I thought I'm just going to fire hose Jane because I have so many questions. So now, and now I have more questions because we just let these conversations go where they go. And yeah, so when you said you plot out, you plot out the whole book.
Speaker 2:Jane, yes, yes, I have to, I have to. I've tried it the other way, right, so I did it. I tried for years to write books before I finally hit on my, my thought, my way of doing it. Basically, so I'd been, I'd always I mean, I'd always wanted to be a writer, but I, I, I. It felt like when I was younger, when I was kind of at uni and kicking around thinking what, what am I going to do with myself? To say I want to be an author, felt like saying, oh, I want to be a pop star, or do you know what I mean? It just felt outlandishly. I didn't know anybody who wrote books for a living, or, you know, that wasn't my world at all. And so I did the next best thing and I became a journalist because I thought that will enable me to write, and I mean my spare moments.
Speaker 2:I kind of sat down and had a go at, you know, writing a novel and I just sat down at my computer and wrote a first chapter of something. You just did it, I just did it, and it was always. I was quite shocked at how bad it was. I thought I can't believe how difficult this is. This is so, so and this is the thing about writing books, it's a lot harder than it looks. And I just tried for years and I'm talking a decade, I mean properly a decade before before I finally cracked it. And I cracked it when, at the time, I finally cracked it. And I cracked it when, at the time, I was the editor of the Liverpool Daily Post, which was a local newspaper here, and I was on maternity leave with my eldest son, who's now 19. And I was sitting in a pew at a wedding and the bride and her bridesmaids walked down the aisle. Now, this was before the movie bridesmaids, I should. I should add.
Speaker 1:The minute I saw that title, I thought oh my God, is that it? No, it was before.
Speaker 2:It was before the movie bridesmaids, and I sat in the pew and I thought has anyone ever written a rom-com called bridesmaids? And if they haven't, I am written a rom-com called bridesmaids, and if they haven't, I am, I'm gonna do it, I am determined to do it. And um, they hadn't. So I wrote the first three chapters and I plotted out oh, that's it. I looked in the writers and artists handbook and everyone was saying write the first, submit the first three chapters and a synopsis to to get an agent, basically. So I thought right, I'm gonna have to write a synopsis, you know. So I thought so I plotted out this synopsis. So that was the thing that first made me do it.
Speaker 2:And I sent these three chapters and this, this plot, to various agents and and I got a call the fault literally within a day from this agent and he said said I really, I really do like this, could you send the rest? This afternoon, at which point I had to confess that there wasn't the rest. The rest didn't exist. So, but that was the first sort of plotting out that I ever did and I was determined to try and get that book finished before I went back, you know, went back to work after my maternity leave, didn't manage it. I ended up doing both at the same time. But once that book became a sort of big success yeah, it did. Yeah it was. It was really big. It was the title, it was huge. It sold gazillions of copies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like over a million copies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sold gazillions of copies. And yeah, like over a million copies, yeah, it sold loads. And um, and I thought when, once I you know. After that I thought, well, I clearly I know how to write a book now, so I'll just, I'll just sit down and just do what I did last time. And but I didn't. I tried just. I tried doing the thing that I'd done previously just sitting down and not plotting out, not really working out where it was going. And again, same as all the other times, it just didn't work. So ever since then, I'm almost superstitious about it. That, you know. Until it just gives me a bit of comfort, I suppose that I know, I know where I'm going, I'm not going to go off on any wild tangents that don't make any sense and I'm going to not going to have to end up deleting loads of words and yeah, so it's just been my way of doing things ever since then.
Speaker 1:It's so fascinating to me to hear different people's processes, because you could have another and I'm going to use the word successful with air quotes around it, because everyone defines that differently. You could have another author who's written multiple books, sold millions of copies, had movie rights deals, movie rights purchase, those sorts of things, and they would have the exact opposite approach to what you just said.
Speaker 2:Absolutely right. I've got friends who you know I do loads of book events and things and I've got friends who do exactly what you say. They just sit down and it's like taking a Kleenex out of a box, one after the other, after the other. I just can't work like that. I love the whole ritual to me of having different colored post-it notes and spreading them all out and envisaging the whole thing like a. You know I've got to have my big, big scene at the end, like in a movie, and you know I need to know all these things before I take that big.
Speaker 1:What's your?
Speaker 2:color coordination.
Speaker 1:Is it like one color is? Is it by chapter? Is it?
Speaker 2:No, it's by character, character, character, yeah, so I always have. I always have like a. You know there's a set of like big characters and you know storylines for each character, but for my main character I will always have, you know, obviously it being a rom-com, there's always a sort of love story. So think through that's going to be a key. So that's always the pink post-it notes, is those I?
Speaker 1:can make another new girl reference, but I won't. I'll spare everyone that.
Speaker 2:But then you'll have you know. So then you'll have something like it's getting hot in here, big storyline with her kids. That's a different one. Then big storyline with her friend, best friend, who's undergoing uh treatment for breast cancer and she's supporting her through that that's another one. And yeah, so I need to know what's gonna happen, roughly at each day and, of course, by the way, this makes it sound like it's some kind of writing by numbers exercise after that it really isn't okay.
Speaker 1:but let's be fair, like, like, there is a little bit and I think people are creative people are equally sometimes unhappy to hear that because we misinterpret it that these books are a little bit formulaic, right? So you talk about and that's not a bad thing, so you talk about there's a love story through it. There are certain elements that books sort of need to have in order to Well, books need a plot.
Speaker 2:That's what they need. They need a plot. So that's what each of my elements has in it and it's all got to build up. It doesn't matter whether you are talking about Oliver Twist or Star Wars. It really doesn't. They have to hit certain key points for it to be satisfying for a reader.
Speaker 1:That's what I mean by formulaic yeah, and yeah, I mean every.
Speaker 2:I mean that's commercial fiction. That's what presses our buttons as readers, I guess.
Speaker 1:It's psychological.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it's exactly that. So I want to make sure I am kind of pushing all the right buttons. Now I'm saying this as if I get it all neatly. You know, it's all there. That's what I'm imagining, jane, a version. Well, it is a version of it.
Speaker 2:But as soon as I start writing, what happens is the characters take on a bit of a life of their own. They then they start to get a voice, they start to have their own ideas and they start interacting with each other. And at that point I start kind of going back to the plan and changing it and tweaking it and moving it. And so the point I'm making is it's a constant work in progress, it's not a fixed thing, it's fluid, it's still fluid, it's completely fluid and, to be honest with you, it's more. It's a psychological crutch for me more than anything, I think, to be able to write those words, chapter one. I want to think, you know, even if I have the worst writer's block in the world, I am able to sit down in front of a computer and just write what it says on that little part of the plan, exactly.
Speaker 1:This gives me such comfort because I am trying and I don't know how many episodes we're going to go through in this podcast where I mentioned I mean, it could be 10 years from now, jane and I'm like. So I'm still working on my first novel, because I've always written nonfiction and I am writing a novel now and I'm trying to figure out oh no, it's not nice. I'm trying to figure out what my process is. Yeah, it's hard. I mean it just takes a minute.
Speaker 2:By the way, my process has evolved very much. Oh yeah, absolutely. It's constantly evolving. And what I have found, what I've really started doing because I've written. I've written both of my last two books Well, it's getting hot in here and the one that's coming afterwards.
Speaker 2:Both of my last two books well, it's getting hot in here, and the one that's coming afterwards quite quick, quicker than I would normally write a book, okay, partly because it's getting hot in here just flew off my keyboard. So I was like, oh, I can write a book in five months, no problem. And and then I, actually I wrote that book in five months, but actually normally I would take a year, but so it's. But it is quite a tight sort of turnaround and schedule and all the rest of it. So I've got this sort of new method for myself, basically, which is I have started to me, even though we're expected to do loads of social media and all kinds of stuff, being an author, the heart of it is writing. That's got to be king as far as I'm concerned, and so I've started literally putting slots of like hour long slots in my diary and blocking it out, like it's this appointment, you know. So you take your writing. The laundry can wait, you know the phone calls can wait. I don't know if mine can.
Speaker 1:The laundry can wait, you know the phone calls can wait. I don't know. I don't know if mine can. I've got to get. I've got three pair of black yoga pants and they need to be clean.
Speaker 2:I've so been there, but I have been that writer who has, you know, dropped the kids off at the school and thought, oh my God, I've got to tidy this house first before I can sit down, and you know, and, but actually I just these days I've just said to myself, right, put these hour long slots in my diary. And you are sitting down and not moving during that hour, and I use a focus app and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:So I will tend to oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which one is it?
Speaker 2:Which one is it? It's called Paziz, paziz, and it just I've never heard of that, it's just fabulous, yeah, it just it, just it's like I don't know. It's just like it's just sort of Like, what does it do?
Speaker 1:Does it play a certain tone? Yeah, it's like. Like it's like spa music.
Speaker 2:Do you put you in a trance? It does put you in a trance.
Speaker 1:It's like this. It does Check that out right after this. So when you go, let's talk about, can we talk about events for a second? Yes, yeah. So one question I have, before I forget, is when you do an event for, uh, under Catherine Isaac, do they introduce you as Catherine? Do you get to? Yes, really, yes, really.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, they do. It was quite confusing at first. I was looking around going who, who are they to this woman?
Speaker 1:Who are they? I? Don't even know my own name many days Right, so like I forget, okay.
Speaker 2:It feels yes, because and I have to say, and there's certain countries where, because I'm published in quite a few different languages, and there's certain countries where really my Catherine Isaac novels are very much at the forefront so Scandinavia, for example, if I go to a book tour of Norway or somewhere like that, it's Catherine Isaac they really know and they've been very successful there, as opposed to Jane Costello, um, but yeah, I mean it. It felt sort of almost. I mean, it's one of these things that publishing, the publishing world, wants you to do when you have a different show, but it felt sort of disingenuous at some time. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:I just I feel like embarrassed, I don't know what. I feel like my pseudonym would be Bridget or something. It's like what is Bridget? You know what I mean? I just feel a bit embarrassed, I don't know what. I feel like my pseudonym would be Bridget or something. It's like what does Bridget?
Speaker 2:wear.
Speaker 1:You know? Does Bridget wear leather? Does Bridget, what does Bridget? That could be really fun, I feel, have a completely different persona, completely different persona Like maybe Bridget's blonde, I don't know, maybe she has purple hair Think of the wigs you could. Oh my God, let's not go down this path. I'm going to start writing another book before I finish this one, under a different name and a different everything. So, after the first book did so well, which I feel is not typical, no, it does happen, sometimes right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but more often a fiction writer will have a backlist and then something, something hits and then the backlist hits. Yeah, so did that put pressure on you? I don't want to lead you with the question, but how did that affect the writing of the one afterward? Did you have expectations? I?
Speaker 2:think, I think, if, if you have a real because I've written well, I've loads of books now yeah, I think, if you've had I really think this and I know this talking to a lot of other authors if you have a particular book that's done really, really well, like a global, like you, me, everything. What was my first Catherine Isaac book?
Speaker 2:that was, you know, sold into like 26 languages and all this stuff and I think you really put it's quite creatively style, as lovely it is to have success with a book, it's oddly stifling creatively for the next one, because you're not just trying to write a story like you were the first time, you're trying to write a bestseller, so everything, every word. You kind of write a sentence and you're like, oh well, that's no good, that's oh god, no, can't have that. You know you're pulling apart absolutely everything that you do and really the best way to do the first draft at least of a novel is to just roll with it All the silly stuff, all the you know, in the knowledge that actually you can come back to it and and just edit it and you know it's always going to get there in the end. But yeah, unquestionably if, if, if a book. You know I've had books that have been really big and I've had flops and I've had, but I actually think all my books have been exactly the same in terms of the standard of writing?
Speaker 2:Oh, completely, it's never been. And all the all the Amazon reviews, they've all got exactly the same star number of stars, wow. So so, whether a book has sold or not, and people, I hope new writers should really, you know, keep the face. I really do believe that, because actually you get loads of really good books out there that just don't sell and it's not to do. It's nothing to do with the quality of the writing, it's this whole load of other factors, such as how good your publishing team, factors that are all connected to it. So, yeah, and like I say, I've had, I've had top 10 bestsellers and I've had ones that just I mean, I had this book, oh God, my one after you, me, everything. I wrote this book that I was so proud of called Messy Wonderful Us, and it was all set up beautifully is that a Jane Costello or?
Speaker 2:Catherine Isaac. Okay, that's my second Catherine Isaac. Okay, it was set up beautifully, all set up. It set in Italy. I loved the book, I loved it and I was feeling really good about it and, um, and it was due to come out in the UK in March 2020 and now that date might ring a bell a little bit yeah it was set up so brilliantly.
Speaker 2:Right, there's this show in the UK. Um, there's a guy called Graham Norton I don't know if you've, no, I have right. Okay, so he's a big talk show host in the UK and he had this radio show biggest radio show in the UK and as part of it, he had a book club slot and I was booked. I was booked for that book club slot and I was booked for it on the 21st of March 2020. And I got the call, like two days before, obviously, pandemic, everything was pulled.
Speaker 2:That book didn't even end up in the stores. It's just sold. It sold sold hardly anything. It just flopped completely because people were, the world was a in complete turmoil, basically, exactly, and it's kind of. You know, it's, it's sort of. Since then things calmed down and it got a. You know, people started to discover it and things, but without that kind of big splash that happens when a book is first published. You know it doesn't happen and, honestly, it was. Yeah, it it was. Just it was a classic example of how you can do everything in a way that should be make it right and, yes, factors beyond your control are just out, but it's not just big things like the pandemic at all. You know, it really isn't. Writers, absolutely all kinds of factors affect whether a book is uh I mean especially today.
Speaker 1:We're just inundated. Right, there's a new book, I mean, I don't know exactly what the statistics are. They're readily available, but the number of books released every Tuesday, every week, is Tuesday in the traditional world and every damn day, frankly, in the indie world, right.
Speaker 2:It's, there are so many, yeah, and how do you break through that? It's so hard, so hard. And there's this whole new world of um you know when I first started and there's this whole new world of you know, when I first started there was no TikTok or anything like that. Right.
Speaker 1:Me either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's this whole world. You know that's opened up this whole other world as well, which is you know, it's great in some ways. I'm sure it's great if you're one of the authors who are reaching this. You know audience through that. But if you think of yourself as kind of being just a writer, you know it's hard, isn't it? You've got to be everything.
Speaker 1:That's one of the things that Tracy Thomas and I talked about because she is. She has a podcast called the Stacks and she talks about she's really fun talks about books. So she doesn't talk about the process of writing and authors don't come on to promote their books. They talk about other books and what she was saying and she does a lot of events and helps moderate events, literary events, and she's based in LA.
Speaker 1:Is you really and I don't like the words need, have to, should or must? I just don't, because ultimately, it's a choice on the part of the, in this case, the author Do you, are you going to choose to put yourself in the arena? However, that being said, if you want, if you really really, really want to reach a lot of readers and and be part of the community, you do kind of have to need to put yourself out there. You don't have to be on a billboard but in some way, shape or form whether it's faceless social media or doing events or going on podcasts or some combination thereof you've just it's sort of it has.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it has. I mean, genuinely, when I first started, you know, obviously I had a journalism background, so I kind of thought, right, well, you know, I'll devote some time to writing articles and that kind of thing and got articles in newspapers and things like that. These days, genuinely, I would say at least half of my working day is spent on publicity side of things, is it so?
Speaker 1:do you have two social media accounts, one for Jane Costello?
Speaker 2:I did, but I just it, just it was a mind. I mean there's so much already, but I, you know, I, I I wanted to really focus on. I mean I don't make any secret of the fact that I write, I've written under two names, but you know, my big, I think my big focus at the moment is the Jane Costello. I mean Jane is my real name, apart from anything else, so that just feels easier and better, unless someone's like you're mad at somebody, then you'll.
Speaker 1:Then you'll say you know, my name is Lisa today um.
Speaker 2:So I just decided to, you know, to kind of it got. It was getting really silly, so I just thought I'm going to focus on that. Yes, people know I, people know I write as Catherine Isaac as well, so they discover my books that way as well. Um, and just spend time on social media. But also I've really wanted to kind of um put a lot of effort into starting um, I've got a newsletter that I do once a month. Also, I really wanted to kind of put a lot of effort into starting. I've got a newsletter that I do once a month and I really wanted to start taking that seriously. So I wrote, I wrote some sort of bonus chapters, you know, for my all my backlist, you know, revisited characters, sort of that's a great idea yeah, for your newsletter try and check.
Speaker 2:Yeah for my newsletter um subscribers. So yeah, they can get free chapters. Um for my, for my backlist. So if they've read girl on the run or one of the the old books, you know, I've written sort of you know what happened next and and I've done the same with it's getting hot in here as well.
Speaker 1:Do you run your own social media? Yes, you do. Okay, so what do you have the most fun with? What do you enjoy the most? Or and or? What do you feel connects you with new readers best when it comes to social media?
Speaker 2:I just, I just like Instagram, um, and.
Speaker 1:I do, I really do, I just, I just like.
Speaker 2:Instagram and I do, I really do. I just for years it was Twitter and Twitter is not the place for me anymore. And you know, I did really well for many years on Twitter and then it just I think a lot of authors have kind of not really liked the face that it was and it's a real shame because it was, it was for book people. It was really good, you know, for a long time, um and but now no, I think Instagram I sort of I just like on a personal level, you know, and I like the book, I like the book community, I like scrolling through all the, I like getting sidetracked by all the videos of people's lovely living rooms and things like that, you know.
Speaker 1:Like our feeds are the same. That's an interesting way to wrap a gift I'm going to right, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:Oh, the wrapping the gifts and all the videos as well.
Speaker 1:It's terrible. I found a new one this morning. It's not wrapping, but I shouldn't. Maybe I'll share it with you and bring you along for the ride. It's how I thrifted it, what I thrifted and how I styled it. So it's a woman who goes to here in the U?
Speaker 1:S we have a place called the Goodwill and it's a a very well-known like secondhand store and so she goes into the Goodwill and she goes into some other thrift stores as God that's hard to say as well and she finds stuff and then she shows you. You know, I spray painted it this color and then I wound it all together and I think, oh my God, I'm going to do all the things Like that's the other thing I get sucked into.
Speaker 2:It's those ones where you know where they basically. They'll take a grotty old bedside table that looks like they've pulled it out of a skip and they sand it down. That's my life. Get this paint like mineral paint and it always looks amazing. And they do it in 30 seconds. And you think, god, I'll do that one weekend, one when I'm not busy, when all the one day, one day, those tables.
Speaker 1:The challenge, though, is they, because I am a huge diy-er, like I'm, okay, I'm not, me too I've renovated at this house even.
Speaker 2:The problem is you never stop, do you? Why do you have to be in the UK? I'm coming to the UK.
Speaker 1:Like if I am not working on book stuff, I'm tearing out a wall or something Like it's I. Last week I posted my sink. My double sink fell into my island one night so I spent like in in, not like dropped a little bit, but just yeah, like in in, not like dropped a little bit, but just vroom like right in front of my face. God, that sounds awful. It was, it really was Jane, but right now I'm refinishing a table. Okay, I love doing that, and yet I hate it because when I watch the people on Instagram, they make it look so easy Like the scraping of the removal of the previous layer of paint. The stripping of it is so oh it's so satisfying, oh it is.
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:It's so satisfying to watch and then I do it.
Speaker 2:It's never like that in real life. You'll be scrubbing away at the thing.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, Nine trips through this table. I finally brought out the heavy duty sander. I was like, forget it, we're just, and now. What I'm going to do I I'm sorry, but not to tell you this is I found this product called retique. It Okay, oh, I will send you. So it has wood fibers. It's a paint Okay, paint adjacent and it has real wood fibers in it. So you paint it. Instead of stripping something, you just paint it on top. It just goes on top, correct, and then you can stain it oh, I like the sound of that or use mineral paint oh, oh.
Speaker 2:I like the sound of that.
Speaker 1:I'm learning all sorts now gonna be a whole new world. So back to insta. So this is why we like and I did you ever get on the threads? Are you ever on threads?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm on there, but I haven't. It's just one that has. I'm afraid that falls into the category of one more thing I need to. I am as well, and is this blue sky as well? Now, everybody keeps telling me about Blue sky. Is that what it's called? Have?
Speaker 1:I made that up. I don't know, know, but I feel like I'm gonna pretend you didn't tell me, because I'm a huge, bright, shiny object.
Speaker 2:Girl, I'm sure it's like a. It's like a it's twitter x type, but but a different alternative type thing okay I'll get on blue sky. You need to. Are they winding me up? Have they made this up? I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean it's ringing like a very subtle bell, but maybe just because I live in phoenix and the skies are always blue, I I don't know. It's the power of suggestion or something. I think everyone migrated, and when I say everyone, I just mean the majority of the people I was following migrated from Twitter, x, whatever, to threads, and I don't mind threads, but I find number one. I like the video, the photos, like threads is just text. And two, I find in my experience that threads.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's a bit of a shame, because the beauty of twitter as it was, was that it was really quick and you didn't have to go to the trouble of making a reel and trying to find a soundtrack or anything like that. You just think of something vaguely amusing to write and whip it down.
Speaker 1:You know, I can spend hours finding the perfect video or audio yeah, but this, anyway, this is the world we're in, isn't it?
Speaker 2:You know it sure is, and it is. Do you know what? It is nice. It's not all hassle. I mean it is hassle, but it's nice and it's worth it, because it allows you to connect with readers in a way that was just not the case beforehand. And for those of us who and people are definitely nice, I have to say. Readers are tend to my readers tend to be a lovely bunch.
Speaker 1:I agree, for those of us who were publishing books before social media, we really appreciate. It's sort of like my kids don't appreciate how nice it is that. Well, maybe it's not nice for them, but when they're out at night I can easily reach them, whereas when I was growing up I had to find a pay phone and put a quarter in and dial. My kids are like what is that phone? Why does it have a circular thing on it? How does that work? But we appreciate how air quote easy or at least simple, social media makes it for us to connect and I love the book community so much. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's lovely, I will power through yeah. No, I agree, I completely agree. And it's even more. Yeah, it is, and you know it, it sort of adds a I mean, I look, nothing beats meeting readers in in in real life.
Speaker 2:Nothing, nothing at all. Um, I did an event recently in Liverpool, which is where I live, with, um, alexandra Potter, um, yeah, and there were people have traveled, honestly. There was, there were two women who'd come from south wales, which to to, just to put it in context, that's five a five hour drive there, and then they were just staying for our event and then driving five hours back and they were just, oh, it was the most fantastic night. It really was. And people, yeah, but people who were into books tend to be lovely, I have to say.
Speaker 1:Lovely yeah. So, speaking of which, my last question is always what are you reading now? Oh, I'm reading.
Speaker 2:Emma Gray's book actually Pictures of you, or the first one? No, the first one, because I think she's bigger in America than she is here in the UK, so I hadn't read that book and I'm doing an event.
Speaker 1:I'm doing several events.
Speaker 2:I'm doing, yeah, so I'm doing several events with her in February when I, when I come to the US.
Speaker 1:Where, in what? In New York, of course, yes, new.
Speaker 2:York and DC. Where else are we going? I'm going to have to come east. We've got at least four or five events that we're doing together. She is such a gem of a human you can tell I think you can tell she is just by reading the book. You can. She's just, yeah, the book's amazing.
Speaker 2:I haven't finished it yet, but I've already been bawling my eyes out at it. I know it's just yeah. The book's amazing. I haven't finished it yet, but I've already been bawling my eyes out at it. I know it's just lovely. I know I'm reading that, and then I've got somebody that did this. I'll hold it up. Oh, my Annabelle, I haven't read it, but I've heard people saying it's brilliant, so that's my next one.
Speaker 1:Yes, nora goes off script. That was the first book of Annabelle's. That was when I first learned about Annabelle and I read it and I said please come on the podcast. And she did and she's amazing, I love her.
Speaker 1:And it's so fun to watch. I think she's done well. She's released at least one, possibly two since, and there might be another one, like I get. I get a little confused sometimes between which ones are upcoming and which ones have already come out, but there are at least two after that and I just can't. Um same time, next summer, I read Annabelle Fabulous, absolutely fabulous. And what's great is I is I don't feel like I'm not a person when I read an author's if you want to call it their sophomore novel or you know where. I think I hope this is better. I don't even think about it, no, I just go in expecting to love it, and so therefore I do. Yeah, and I couldn't. If you said well, which one did you like better? I couldn't answer for either Annabelle or Emma. They're just, they're wonderful writers and they're wonderful people. Oh good.
Speaker 2:Well, I expected nothing less to be honest with you, Cause, uh, yeah, I just uh, yeah, I'd heard really good things about Emma's book and I'm completely loving it. And uh, yeah, no, it's at least four events I've been booked to do um, and I'm yeah, it's um, it's, it's the zibby um. New chat, new year, new chapter is one of is like the main one, okay, and then there's various other places that we're going to as well, in new york dc and, and I think they're looking at philadelphia and boston.
Speaker 1:Um, so if you to Boston, I'm going to keep an eye on your schedule or Virginia as well. Okay, because my sister's in Boston and I've been having all these reasons to go to Boston and or Philadelphia for a while. Okay, so I'm going to see that as a sign that.
Speaker 2:I need to get on an airplane. Oh, definitely, that would be just so fun. That would be brilliant, because.
Speaker 1:I've talked to everyone so many, but I've not met anyone in person. I think it needs to happen.
Speaker 2:I think it needs to happen. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much. I don't even what time is it there. Is it late afternoon, 6 pm? Okay, well, I appreciate you so much for coming on. This was so fun. Not at all, I've loved it and I'll link everything in the episode notes, every book. We've talked about everything of yours, all 15 of your it's gonna be one long set of notes, that isn't it?
Speaker 2:oh, thanks so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.
