Write the Damn Book Already

Ep 105: Book Events (that Actually Sell Books) with Traci Thomas

• Elizabeth Lyons / Traci Thomas

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Want the insider secrets to creating book events that actually sell books and build superfans? This episode is your masterclass!

I'm joined by the absolutely magnetic Traci Thomas, host of The Stacks podcast and literary event connoisseur, for a conversation that's packed with actionable insights for authors at every stage. If you've ever wondered how to transform your book events from awkward readings to memorable experiences that drive real connection (and sales!), you'll want to grab your notebook for this one.

We dive deep into:

  • The massive mistakes many authors make at their events (and how to avoid them!)
  • Why the traditional publisher-author relationship is broken (and what to do about it)
  • Traci's genius strategies for building genuine reader relationships
  • How to leverage your unique story and personality to ensure an unforgettable events
  • An author event framework Traci loves for driving book sales and engagement

Whether you're launching your debut or working on book #10, this episode delivers a blueprint for creating author events that actually move the needle on your author business.


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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Write the Damn Book Already podcast. My name is Elizabeth Lyons. I'm a six-time author and book editor, and I help people write and publish powerful, thought-provoking, wildly entertaining books without any more overthinking, second-guessing or overwhelm than absolutely necessary. Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is gonna come with the territory. If you're anything like me than absolutely necessary, because, let's face it, some overthinking, second guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory. If you're anything like me, I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most potent ways we connect with one another and that your story, perspective and insights are destined to become someone else's favorite resource or pastime. For more book writing and publishing tips and solutions, oh, and plenty of free and low-cost resources, visit publishaprofitablebookcom. Hi, my friend.

Speaker 1:

Every once in a while I get to have sort of an unexpected conversation with someone who isn't an author but is book adjacent, as I say. So I've done this in the past. I had Kathleen Schmidt, who's a publicist. I've, of course, had Jen Hansen, depaula and, by the way, going to have her again soon. Jen is my go-to for all things author marketing and we're going to do a 2024 roundup where she's going to bring everyone sort of up to date on what's working, what's not working, what's coming down the pike. She works with so many authors and she sees so much that she's just such a great resource for that. And then this week I had so much fun talking with Tracy Thomas Thanks to her amazing publicist, jackson Musker, who reached out to me and listen, I'm putting his info in the show notes. If you are an author looking for a publicist, I am going to heavily encourage you to connect with Jackson, and that's saying a lot because in the author space it is not always easy to find a publicist who knows what they're doing, who you vibe with, who's priced reasonably and to be fair, I don't know what Jackson's prices are. What I know is that I think I'd almost pay him just about anything because his communication with me through this whole thing was next level and I got the furthest thing from a form letter from him asking about doing an episode with Tracy that I think I've ever gotten so big props to Jackson of the critically acclaimed literary podcast, the Stacks Side note. I had never heard of this podcast, even though it's critically acclaimed, and I am now a subscriber and working my way through all several hundred episodes because it's really it's really fun, it's very well produced and, of course, my TBR pile is now going to be like I'm gonna have to build it its own container. I don't even know what I'm gonna do.

Speaker 1:

Tracy is a passionate champion of books and a deeply curious interviewer. She's also a monthly contributor to NPR's here and Now, a columnist for SheReadscom and the creator of the LAist live literary series, one for the Books. She also hosts and moderates literary events, book festivals and author talks nationwide, and she has a sub stack called Unstacked, which I'm going to have her back because we didn't make it to talking about sub stack and Patreon, which sort of off camera or off audio. We talked about this a little bit at the end of our conversation and I asked her if she would be willing to come back in 2025 to talk more about that, because it's a question I hear often from authors Should I start a sub stack or a Patreon or something of the like? So I want to get all of her yeses and nos and do's and don'ts and lesson learned and all those sorts of things which she agreed to do, thankfully Away from the stacks.

Speaker 1:

Tracy is a lover of hot takes, a watcher of sports and a true snack enthusiast. We talked about that first in this interview, because I need all the good snacks to stress eat while I'm writing. Originally from Oakland, california, she now lives in LA with her husband, mr Stacks, and her twin boys, the Mini Stacks. How cute is that? And also, I didn't know when we first got connected that she also has twin boys. Hers are five, mine are 23,. But let's not do the math on how much older that makes me than Tracy. This was such a fun conversation. All of Tracy's info is in the show notes, let's just get right into it. You have a snack. What's your favorite snack right now? I do need to know that because I need to be inspired a little bit.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so I have one traditional sort of official snack that is my favorite snack for my whole life, at least since high school, and that is you put goldfish and Swedish fish in the same container. We call is a. You put goldfish and Swedish fish in the same container, we call it a pescatarian. You don't eat them at the same time, but you kind of like, do like salty, and then like a little sweet and salty.

Speaker 2:

But if you put them together, the salt from the sweet, from the goldfish kind of like, gets on the Swedish fish, so it's sort of like it's delicious, so that's like my standard favorite go-to. Okay, it's just was Halloween, so I have a lot of Halloween candy in the house. Have you ever had a take five bar? No, okay, delicious they're the. Reese's. It's five ingredients. I never get it right. It's like cookie, pretzel, caramel, chocolate and peanut butter. That's it. It's a maze Also reignited my love of Butterfingers this year.

Speaker 1:

I used to be a Butterfinger girl. I hadn't had one in like at least a decade At least.

Speaker 2:

And it was. It is delicious. I mean, popcorn is great. I prefer the like at home, from the bag popped, as opposed to the like bag from the store.

Speaker 1:

kind of cold, I like the warm you know, like with all the fresh out of the microwave, with all the carcinogens.

Speaker 2:

But I don't want to make it myself on a stove and put my own. Oh no, that's a lot of work.

Speaker 1:

I only want it to kind of be like a neon yellow, orange color, right, otherwise I don't want it, where, when you reach into the bag and you pull your hand out, your knuckles are covered in the yes, that I agree with you. That is a thing. You know what I've gotten back into recently and I'm not super happy about this Snickers bars. Okay, love a Snickers. I mean love. I think I forgot how good they were and then someone had one and I was really hungry, so I ate one and that was the beginning of the end, kind of yeah, it's um, it's a delicious, delicious, evergreen candy.

Speaker 2:

What show are we doing? What is the? I mean? I, I, I can talk about. You started with snacks. It was a bad place to start, cause I could do this for a year.

Speaker 1:

I could as well. That's kind of the challenge. And then and I do have to say, like your Instagram, first of all, I'm so grateful for Jackson, isn't he great? So, oh my gosh, he's so great. So I get and you probably do too emails on steroids for like, oh, come have this person on, whatever, right. I have to be honest. I I look at the majority of them. I don't respond to the majority of them because they're all form letters and many of them have no, I got one the other day. That was fun. It was like it wasn't even about books, it was like I'm a crypto expert. I'd love to contribute. Let me know.

Speaker 2:

I get those all the time.

Speaker 1:

The crypto guys.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, or like you should have this dentist on your show. I'm like okay.

Speaker 1:

So when Jackson messaged me, as I do, I open them, but it was such a nice email and it was so for lack of a better word curated, like, it was personalized and everything, and I could tell that he was just writing it to me. It wasn't going out to 300 other people, yeah, and so then I fell down the rabbit hole of all things, tracy, including starting with, really, the Instagram. Your Instagram is fucking dangerous, like, have you ever been told that?

Speaker 1:

okay, it's really fucking dangerous because you have all these beautifully curated pictures of, like your tbr piles and stuff or a tbr and I'm here to tell you that I don't know the vast majority of those books, which mean I want them, yeah, yeah okay, I have been told that people do get mad at me for making their TBR longer, not specifically the Instagram, but just in general. No, it's a pro, it's like my, it's bad.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I just want to say one thing about Jackson really quickly because I love Jackson and he is my publicist and.

Speaker 2:

I actually had a similar experience to you. He pitched a book to me on my show that I ended up having on because I loved his form letter so much or his letter so much, and after that I reached out to him and was like I need a publicist, will you do this? And he was like I mean, I don't normally do podcasters, I normally just do book publicity. But I was like you know all the places that I want to be and I liked your letter so much, so I convinced him to work with me. We've been working together now that was in 2021 or 2022. So we've been working together on and off since then and I know your show is a show for writers who like about books and if you need a book publicist, jackson is the one.

Speaker 2:

Like, I have dealt with so many book publicists, especially independent book publicists, and they're very hit or miss. Jackson is the real deal and I just am so grateful to him because we spend hours like we spent hours on the phone curating a list of shows that I wanted to be like. You know, it's not like he's just like here I'm going to email my list. He really, like we talk, we think about what's the angle. How would this be a good fit Like? It's just a really like hands-on experience which I appreciated and I think. Authors.

Speaker 1:

Jackson Musker I should say Musker, musker and I will put his info in that you've just made the day of not just me myself and I, but also so many people who all seven of my listeners, because so often I this is a topic that comes up quite literally all the time. Yeah, like, do I need a publicist? Is that going to be the secret to me making millions of dollars? And of course I'm like, no, that is not going to be the secret, but people are so hesitant to hire publicists or marketing media anything because you just don't know. So it almost always comes from word of mouth. Yeah, like, word spreads fast and then those individuals don't have any space left on their roster because they get booked quickly. So I will definitely put his info in the show notes because he was great and not only did was he a great intro, but he followed it all the way through.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 1:

We had, like, multiple things scheduled and there was canceled and there were reminders going out that weren't supposed to go out and he was on it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he's, he's amazing. So, yes, for people who need, because I can vouch for him as a client, but also as a person who's been on your end of it right Like. I've worked with him both ways and he's amazing.

Speaker 1:

So what? I was listening yesterday and I'm about halfway through to your interview with Jason DeLeon Am.

Speaker 2:

I saying that his last name yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I was riveted. And that's not even the type of book I would normally pick up. And now it's on the TBR list like it's in the cart right. What brought you to do this? Cause you have a really impressive fun looking whole thing going on.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, um, what brought me to do the show, or specifically that episode?

Speaker 1:

Um, the show, Okay, but you can also say that episode. I mean it's interesting because you have such a wide variety, which I strive for as well, like I want traditional and hybrid and self, and just thinking about it and switching and all the things, because we talk more about the process, right, and so what got you interested in it as a whole and then deciding who you're going to talk to?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I'll tell you the truncated version of the backstory, because it's sort of a long, convoluted story. But basically I was a reader my whole life. Then I moved to New York, or I lived in New York for a long time, then I moved to LA, which is where I am now, and when I moved to LA, I didn't read as much and I basically like stopped reading because you're driving, you're not on the subway, so it's harder to fit in time and I in 2016, was like I want to get back into reading. I'm extremely goal oriented, so I was like I'm going to read one book a month for 2016. I got to the end of the year I finished my 12th book. I jokingly said to my husband, like am I the greatest reader that ever lived? Like you know, I was like really tooting my own horn.

Speaker 2:

The next year I was like, okay, I'm going to read 13 books this year, because not only do I love setting a goal, but I also like to achieve my goals. I do not like to set goals that I cannot achieve. That is not in my personality. I got to 24 books that year. I just like really got into it. I started posting about them on my Instagram my personal Instagram, not the stacks. It didn't exist yet. And a friend of mine was like you should start a blog and I was like I hate writing, I'll never do it. And then I was like I read this book that I loved. I wanted to listen to a podcast episode about it. I couldn't find one that fit what I wanted and I was like maybe I should start a show where I get to talk about books in the way that I want to talk about them, like with the people I want to talk about them with and just gush about books. So I always tell people sort of similarly to you, but opposite is that I'm a book podcast that is for readers. It is about reading. It is not about writing. So while I do ask questions about process or whatever, and while I have had editors on or whatever, it's really a show about reading. So the questions are what readers want to know, like I want to know why this character was so awful. I don't want to know how you thought about the character, I just want to know why this character shot her husband or whatever you know. And so then I just started the show.

Speaker 2:

I started it with only talking to my friends, like people that I knew in real life, who I knew were readers. My first guest was an English teacher, because I was like I don't know that I'm going to know how to talk about books actually. So I had my first guests. You'll notice are like professional writers, like TV writers, professors, english teachers. And then eventually, like I sort of found my swing, I figured it out, and authors were like, can I come on the show? I was like okay, yeah, sure, yes, yes. And it was definitely like a switch for me at first being like, oh, this person's here to promote their work, not so much talk about books, and in the beginning, like the first few authors on the show, I don't really let them promote their like. There's like 10 minutes at the beginning where we talk about books and then we get into like the meat of the episode where we talk about like the books, that, or we talk about their book. Then we get into the books I love.

Speaker 2:

The show has changed a little bit since then. That was almost seven years ago, so some things have shifted. But mostly I still do interviews, so now, like that, the old format was one episode where we talked to the guest about the books they loved. Then the next episode was a book club episode. So we had two book club episodes a month, basically two guests, two episodes. Um. Now we still do that one in one book club and just interview, but there's only one of those each month. So whoever comes on the first week of the month comes back the last week of the month to do a book club episode, and then in the middle are those interviews, like with Jason DeLeon, where it's really more of someone talking in detail about their book.

Speaker 2:

Um, so that's sort of how the show breaks down. That change happened because I had the twins and I was doing six episodes before and I wanted to bring it in. It's a lot of work, it sure is, and I'm an independent podcast and I went to a network for just a little bit for like a year and a half, but otherwise it's just been me. I do have an amazing editor and an amazing assistant now, but when I made that switch when I had the twins, it was just been me. I do have an amazing editor and an amazing assistant now, but when I made that switch when I had the twins, it was just me, all by myself, and so it was like I can't actually maintain this level.

Speaker 1:

I'm just picturing you because I know what it's like to have newborn twins, and so I would have one in one arm and one flying over my shoulder. And then my two-year-old at the time would have been who knows what. And yeah, it's not exactly conducive to a schedule or anything else. But you know what's interesting? I love the flexing of the format. It reminds me a little bit of the shit no one tells you about writing that podcast.

Speaker 2:

I've done that show twice and then I also had Bianca on. She was one of the earlier authors I had on the show when I was, when I just started doing the like straight up, like interviews about the book for her, for her yellow book, if you want to make God laugh.

Speaker 1:

Oh OK.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

Well, because I think, well, tell me how you feel about this. It's we when I talk to authors who want to start, and I want to ask you about all this, but podcast Substack, patreon, which was so funny that you have all three, I sure did.

Speaker 1:

Because they come up often. Again, I'm just going to feel like I'm repeating myself by saying all the time, but it really does because I think people are just trying to find, especially in the author space. They're trying to find their way and they're trying to figure out well, how do I do something that's a little bit different, where I don't just, I don't want to just talk about my book all the time, right, right, how do I engage people so they like get to know who I am outside of being an author, which, to me, is the best marketing there is. Right, if I hear someone on your show, as an example, and you're just having a conversation with them and I'm intrigued by what they're saying, I don't need them to promote their book. They've just promoted their book. I'm going to go buy it.

Speaker 2:

What I talk about a lot, not necessarily to authors, but to other people in the book space. So, whether it's like a publicist or an editor or whatever and I have said it to authors as well, but I say this a lot the least interesting thing at a book tour, at the book tour stop, is the book Bingo. I don't want to sit in a bookstore with 20, 100, 6 people and have you tell me about a sentence on page 72 from a book that came out 36 minutes ago that I have not read. I'm already here in the room. I have driven in traffic in Los Angeles at 7 pm on a Tuesday to come into this room. I already am probably going to buy the book because I already drove. There's so many book events I don't go to, so I've made the choice, the commitment, to come to support this event. I'm probably going to buy the book. Why are you talking to me about the details of a book that I have not read?

Speaker 1:

Okay, so controversial statement Can we talk about when readers have an event and they read a chapter from the book?

Speaker 2:

So when I do book talks with authors, I usually tell them I don't want to read from the book. I don't want you to read from the book, right? Sometimes, if the author is, like, extremely well-known and people love them and are coming to hear them read, I will encourage them to do two minutes Like.

Speaker 1:

I'm like barely anything. You know who did that and I think we both went to see him, not a Kwame.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, well, I was, I taught I sat with. Are you in LA? No, I'm in.

Speaker 1:

Phoenix, but he was in Phoenix yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I actually did his event with him in LA and he was like I think I'm going to read. And I was like okay, well, what are you going to read?

Speaker 1:

For Chain Gang no-transcript.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that okay. So that's so funny because this is an exception in my book. I am going on record. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm saying I don't want to hear someone read a chapter from their book because I can go home and read that later.

Speaker 1:

I want to get to know you as a person, as an author. I want to hear about your process. I want to know a little bit about you. I want to see just what your personality is, all of that. There are two exceptions. One is the one you mentioned if they're very well-known and people want to hear it in their voice and that sort of thing. The other is if an author is really nervous, if they've never done an event, if they're just getting their feet wet in doing an event. Sometimes the easiest thing for them to do is to read, because they don't have to worry about having the right words or whatnot. Yes, so when the chain, when Nana Kwame was in the for the chain gang oh my gosh, he read a lot, Tracy, oh, he did, yeah, a lot, a lot more than three pages. But here's what I'm here to tell you. It worked because he got into all the characters.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he did like a full performance when we did it.

Speaker 1:

It was a full performance. Yes, it was a full performance.

Speaker 2:

I think if you're going to do that, you have a little more leeway. I will tell you so to push back against if you're very nervous. I think it is a mistake to read if you are extremely nervous, because what happens is the book becomes a crutch and you hide behind the book and it feels really comfortable there and I hate to tell people. I don't hate to. I love to tell people what to do, but first time authors, people who are nervous about public speaking, unfortunately for you. You have to find a way to get over it. Like, the reason you're on a book tour is to sell your books. If it to sell yourself, okay, I know people don't like to hear that. I know it's unpopular.

Speaker 2:

I don't disagree with you at all, but if you feel like you must read, my one tip and the thing that I do do is to talk to your moderator and have them queue you up for a section of the book in the middle of the talk. So sometimes what I'll do is I'll talk to an author for 20 minutes and I'll lead them to a part of the book that either I know they want to read or I want them to read, and then we'll talk about what you're going to hear and then I'll say read these four paragraphs and really curate it so that people understand. I don't know if you read. Did you read? Come and Get it. By Kylie Reid, no, okay.

Speaker 1:

It's fantastic. Don't keep doing it, Tracy. It's great.

Speaker 2:

Great. Don't keep doing it, tracy. It's great, it's great. Anyways, she and I did a book event together and there were like four paragraphs in her book that were so funny but out of context. If she had started the event and been like these four paragraphs, you'd be like this is stupid. But I was explaining to the audience like this is what's going to happen, and like it's a scene, and she lists all these items that this girl bought for her dorm room from target and like listen to how she writes about it. And then kylie reads like a pillow that says no place like home, a pink fuzzy, this and this and that, and it lands with the audience and it actually showcases the work, as opposed to you just like sitting down and being like okay, page 72, martha was mad at her mother, I'm gonna take you there. And then it's like I'm so mad at her mother, I'm going to take you there. And then it's like I'm so mad at my mom and you're just like right, and no one. Really it's out of context. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

So I feel like, if you feel that, you must read.

Speaker 2:

you have to queue it up.

Speaker 1:

It's better later into the event and it's better if it's part of the conversation and not just like okay now I'm going to read Well, you raise a great, great point, which is that a lot of people, specifically new authors, don't even think to have a moderator or a conversation partner. And the reality is you can just bring a friend with you to be your conversation partner, and that takes so much. I think, of the weight off where I see authors get really nervous and I get it because I was at one point too. I mean, I was not always comfortable, you know, with public speaking, right, and they're up there alone, yeah, right, so they're just standing there and they've got.

Speaker 1:

If they have two people staring at them, they're nervous because it's like, oh my God, there's only two people, why are there only two people here? If they have 150 people staring at them, they're super nervous because of that. And so what ends up happening is and I completely agree with what you're saying they use the book as a crutch, almost to the point where they don't even make eye contact with the audience, right? So the book is up in front of their face or over here, but they're not. Did you ever?

Speaker 1:

see the episode of did you ever watch, Friends?

Speaker 2:

Not really Okay. I've seen episodes but I don't think I'll know You're like the fourth person who I've been like did you ever see?

Speaker 1:

Because I know every episode backwards, forwards and inside out, and so I use it as between that and New Girl. That'll be like did you ever see this episode? And so when people say no, I have to quickly pivot. But there's an episode in Friends where Ross is trying really hard, he's reading his dissertation and they're like you're not making eye contact and so he kind of goes, he reads and he does this like quick eye contact, like quick stare?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I completely agree and I'm curious what out you know, being so immersed in the space, what you've seen people do. That was really creative in terms of like. I know you two mourn the loss of the. I'm still mourning it. I might just try to bring it back. The voiceovers on Instagram, oh well, I still, you can still voiceover you can still do it, but remember when it was a, it was a thing like it was a trend for a while.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I still do. I literally just made a reel today that has voiceover.

Speaker 1:

Does it have voiceover? I haven't done it in so long and I feel like you're inspiring me to start doing it again, because I loved that.

Speaker 2:

I love it.

Speaker 1:

And I think I loved the challenge of it because it's not as easy no, it's really hard. You got to hit that timing right, I know it took me like an hour to get it, but I got it and I was like don't change a thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what are some creative things that I've seen authors do that I've been impressed with? I mean, one of the things I always am like really impressed with is when people actually like have this is going to sound silly, but actually have like friends in the space, like people, like authors, who are like well-liked by other authors, who are in community with other people. I think that always really helps me. It helps me to figure out what kind of book like what the book might be like. You know, and I know that for some people it's like your debut. You don't know a lot of people. But I'm also really impressed with people who then reach out and are like I'm a big fan of X, y and Z that you've written. You know, like I think that is always that's the thing that I always look at. I don't know that that necessarily means the book is going to be good or not, but it does help me to orient the author in my mind, because there are so many authors and there are so many books. I think also like when authors you know I don't like, I don't like a cover reveal, like a lot of that stuff is silly to me.

Speaker 2:

I'm not into it. I don't think it's necessary. I don't like. Like a cup. What is a cover reveal? It's the same If you just post the cover on your Instagram versus if you have a video and you like pull up a piece of paper and say, like it's a reveal, like they're both a reveal. I've not seen it and now I've seen it.

Speaker 1:

So like to me, on my heartstrings my cold dead heart is when authors open their book and see their galleys or whatever.

Speaker 2:

For the first time I knew you were going to say that I do love those, I love those, the unboxing, the unboxing the first one, not when they do it again for the finished copy. I'm like you've seen it, okay, we've all seen it. I have it. Okay, it's fine, but that first one.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is kind of a heart, because it's never um you. There's something in their eyes that you can't fake, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Especially when it's like a debut. I feel like sometimes, when authors have like 10 books are like oh, I'm like okay.

Speaker 1:

We know how you're going to do this.

Speaker 2:

This is your third book this week. Like Stephen King, I don't need to see you be so excited to see your next book.

Speaker 2:

As far as like things outside of social media, I do think, when people like really do think about what they want their book tour to be like, aside from just like sitting in a bookstore with neon lights on, when they really do think about who's in the room and what it could feel like and what's possible, those are always the best when it feels a little bit special. I think sometimes authors forget that art is entertainment and I think they forget sometimes that they have a responsibility to entertain people, even when it's not the book, and I know that people are like well, I'm not an entertainer and I'm not a performer and all of those things except for sort of you are, you are, you become a public figure, whether you like it or not, when you want people to consume your art. Like I know it's a very unpopular opinion and it's very interesting because it's an unpopular opinion only in the book space. I come from the theater world, so I have friends who are actors and actresses, who obviously those are floor facing people, but directors and choreographers, and even they understand that when they are out in public in that capacity, at opening night of their show or whatever, that there's some expectation of a performance and I think that authors forget that. And so when authors are thinking about.

Speaker 2:

Who am I? What does it mean for me to be in the world? Who are the people I'm inviting into this space to hear me read or to be part of my Instagram or Substack community? Why these people? What do they want? What will make them feel taken care of? Who are the other people I want to be in community? All of those things. When I can tell an author's thinking about those things, whether it is an unboxing video or a sub stack post or whatever, that always impresses me when I'm like I get who you are and I get who you want us to be to each other.

Speaker 1:

Why do you think it's so different? Because I've often contemplated this. It is different in the book space compared to other creative spaces, and it's's almost, in my experience, like authors are more cerebral about it all.

Speaker 2:

I think because it's like I okay, I think even painters or like visual artists are better at the performance, because they understand that to see the thing requires an effort from your audience. They have to come to your art show, they have to like put. And I think authors think because the thing, like maybe you go to a bookstore but maybe it just gets delivered to your front door and it comes to you and it's a private thing between you and the book, and so I think that authors think that they're not supposed to be part of that thing. And I think I also think because and this is again, don't get me canceled I think publishing lacks a lot of imagination when it comes to this stuff, and so I think authors aren't encouraged to think about this stuff.

Speaker 2:

They're encouraged to think about like book sales or like who do you want to be in conversation with, but they're not encouraged to think why are we doing a book tour? Like not just to sell books, but like why are you going to Phoenix? Like not just to sell books, but like why are you going to Phoenix? Why are you going to Savannah, georgia? Why not Atlanta? Why not Tempe? Like these things that people, this like real passion for the reason folks are gathering is missing in publishing in general.

Speaker 1:

Do you think that's? This is actually something I wanted to talk with you about Do you feel like that's something that sort of emanates from the top and when by the top, in this instance, I mean the traditional, like the big five, because we've been hearing for years and years and years that it's just the same old, same old. No one's you know. I remember Carly Waters lamenting at the end of 2023 that she really thought that in 2023, some of these big five publishers would partner with some of these influencers, specifically on TikTok, because book talk was so huge and it didn't. It didn't happen because the sort of the thinking in the traditional space was this is how we've always done it, and so that's therefore, we're going to continue to do it this way.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think publishing like the big five and even the smaller but still bigger publishers have a real lack of imagination. I definitely think that's true. I mean they do partner with TikTokers and bookstagrammers or whatever, but their budgets are low, they don't invest in it, and it's they might as well, not in some ways it's just like okay, well, to your point.

Speaker 1:

I don't think they think about what the goal is, right, I don't think it's intentional and I think that on the author side, the author feels like just put me on tour, because that's what sells books and that's what makes me a quote, real author. Put me on tour and get me on the Today Show, right?

Speaker 2:

And I think those things do sell books. But also again, if you go on your book tour and you sit there and you read your book and are boring and talk about sentences and stuff, people aren't going to buy your book because maybe there's two or three writers in the room but there's probably a lot more just readers, people who just like a book near the bookstore and so if you're talking to the you in the audience not you, Elizabeth, but you, author, talking to yourself you're not reaching the right people.

Speaker 2:

So I think some of the blame for sure goes to publishing. In general, I don't think that they do a good job of explaining how these things work or how they should work or how they envision them working. But I also think authors sometimes feel like I did my job, I wrote the book. Isn't that enough? And my answer is it's definitely not, Definitely.

Speaker 1:

And this is a challenging thing, because my thing is when authors say well, I hear a lot, I don't care if it makes money, I just want to do it, which I don't know how I feel about that, because yeah, I feel like in most cases that's a lie, sure, and it's just a defense mechanism of like when it doesn't.

Speaker 1:

I'm just setting my expectations really low right now so that if it doesn't do well, I won't be disappointed. But I don't think anybody would be unhappy if it made a little bit of extra money. Even if all you do is donate it, even if you don't technically need it. Right, you can do good things with that income. But I think that in many cases authors are they will say, like, why I don't? I don't want to, like, I don't, I don't want to do the tour, I don't want to stand up in front of people, I don't want to speak, I don't want to this, I don't want to do a podcast, I don't want to do any of it, I just want I will sit back here in the corner and I want somebody else to go sell my book, and I'm always. My response to that is always okay, but it's probably not going to work the way that you want it to work. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I don't think that works great for most people. I think there are some people, but most of those people probably came up in publishing in a really different time than now. So I think there are models. I've heard people be like, well, I don't think like you know, whoever Catcher in the Rye guy like had to do this, it's like, yeah, but you didn't even have like a cell phone.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like, I think he wrote with like a quilt and you know, like Shakespeare wasn't promoting himself, well, actually he was doing all the shows. But whatever, it's fine. I also think in the olden days you know, we can take it back pretty far Recent history writers were public figures and they understood that in a way that I think some like James Baldwin he was going to give you an interview. Okay, he was not above talking about his work or talking about the world, and oftentimes a lot of the clips that we know and love of James Baldwin or Toni Morrison aren't actually just them talking about the work, it's them talking about the world, and that's why I say that the book is the least interesting thing in the room If you want to go to your book tour and talk about nerd rope for an hour.

Speaker 2:

I love this.

Speaker 1:

You're going to buy everything that person has ever written.

Speaker 2:

But everyone in the room will be so refreshed because the other part about a book event and this is a thing that I work to push back against for my entire career in the space is that book events are extremely pretentious. A lot of people who read books regularly would never define themselves as a reader, just like your friend who runs two miles a day, and they're like no, I'm not a runner, because I've never run a marathon or something. That's how readers are. Readers are like oh, I only read five books a year, so I'm not really a reader.

Speaker 2:

And so one of the things that is really disarming and great for authors to do is to understand that that's who your audience is and to talk to them about nerd rope right, like I ask authors on my show about their favorite snacks and beverages A because I love it, but B because I know it connects them to people who maybe aren't interested in the book. Like, not everyone's going to be interested in human smuggling at the Mexico border. Like Jason DeLeon's book. It's a fantastic book, but it was also great to hear him talk about his love of Jesmyn Ward and how her writing influenced his writing to the point that one of the people in his book because everybody has pseudonyms. He named Jesmyn, like. That's such a cool thing and if you're just sitting there talking about what's in your book and you're not selling yourself and the story and not even selling yourself, but just like being a human in the world.

Speaker 1:

It's the connection piece? Yeah, exactly, and I think it's not. You know, we've been saying, now more than ever, for the past four years people are desiring connection. It's still true in my world, that connection piece. I think that's true always.

Speaker 2:

I don't think it's a now more than ever. I think that's true always. I don't think it's a now more than ever. I think it's an always. I think people want to feel like they're seen, like they're heard, like they're alive, like they matter. And I think, like when authors go into these spaces and it's just either it's just like I don't want to do this or it's like buy my book, buy my book, buy my book. Neither of those things feel authentic and that's why I'm like tell me about your favorite recipe. Like I would sit for an hour and hear an author talk about what they made for dinner. Like if they were hosting a dinner party, what would you make? Or what's the movie that, if you could, you know, whatever it is like. You can talk about anything at these events. You just have to talk and be available for people to find a way into you and your work. It's very simple, actually, if people allow themselves to be vulnerable in those ways.

Speaker 1:

Well, and what's interesting to me is you can go into a bookstore. Or when you go into a bookstore, right. Then it really does become about sales. The sale of the book right, the book has to grab your attention. But when you go to an event and you meet someone face-to-face, or you hear someone and you're seeing them face-to-face speak, that's a different level of connect. Now you're selling yourself. Yeah, you're not selling the book, you're and I don't mean that in a not so great way, right. I just you're either going to make that connection with people or you aren't. Yeah, right, if someone came to an event and you talked at the whole event about your love of nerd rope and they are just a diehard, all of the chemicals in our food are killing us You're not gonna make that connection, right, right, but somebody like me is going to go what the heck?

Speaker 2:

What? What's a nerd? How? What Right? Right, or honestly, or you might, you might make that connection because that person will be like holy cow. That woman was so obsessed with this thing and I'm so obsessed with food safety and, like I would like, sometimes I will go to an event and be like I don't even want to read this book, but I'm so in love with this person I'm going to, even though I disagree, like there's so many ways to connect Because you respect the passion, exactly Right, and you respect, just like, the person being authentic in the space with you, so I think like you can't.

Speaker 2:

you can't predict who's going to like you and who's not going to like you. You sort of have to just go in and do your thing. And I know a lot of people don't like me, I know I'm an acquired taste for a lot of people and that's totally fine. But there are people who are going to find me and who are going to like me, and I just go into the world trying to find those people, and then I also find the haters to motivate me, you know they're fun.

Speaker 1:

They're fun. I love a good like not a pile on, not into that, but I love a good one star, completely ridiculous review yeah.

Speaker 2:

I always say hating like talking shit about books is good for books. Yeah, that's one of my go-to lines.

Speaker 1:

It really is.

Speaker 2:

It's great for books. It's great Okay.

Speaker 1:

So, speaking of books that have sort of attracted, can attract you or interest you, even if it's unexpected, are there any of those that come to mind where you just maybe it's not something you would have picked up on your own, but somebody recommended it and you read it and you were like, oh my God.

Speaker 2:

I mean, yes, so I'm not a huge romance reader, but I loved Seven Days in June by Tia Williams. Seven Days in June by Tia Williams. I loved it, I loved it, loved it, yeah, so that's one that I loved. I really liked nonfiction a lot, so sometimes I will pick up a book. Okay, here's a good example. This book is called what, if we Get it Right. It's by Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson, who is a marine biologist policy advocate, climate justice person, and I was familiar with her work and I really liked an essay that I had read that she'd written in another book, and she had a new book coming out and I saw it. It's kind of thick. Okay, it's like kind of a chunky book.

Speaker 1:

And.

Speaker 2:

I was like I'm interested in the climate, but like it's 500 pages, let me see if it's on audio. So I go to audio. It is 22 hours on audio and I was like well.

Speaker 2:

I don't care about climate change this much. I don't. I don't like that's a lot, that's a whole day. Okay, I don't, I don't care, we're all going to die, Like whatever. I start the audio book because I was like we'll see. I heard her on an interview on someone else's show and I was like we'll see. I heard her on an interview on someone else's show and I was like we'll see. This book changed my life. It has changed the way that I see the world. It has changed what I think is possible about climate change.

Speaker 2:

It has completely like shifted my like inner being. Okay, this book like I'm like oh, I just got a compost bit Like I am a different person. Well, when you figure out how to use that, can you please follow up with me, because I take it to my farmer's market and I dump it and then they take it to the farm and then I can get compost from them.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So that okay. So you found a little bit of a fun workaround, because I've about had it. I've almost given up, but moving on, I don't want to digress, anyways.

Speaker 2:

So this is a book that I maybe would have liked and was on my radar, but it wasn't until I actually, like, went into the book and 22 hours was not enough, because the book is her, the book is transcripts of interviews she's done, but the audio book you get to hear the interview, so it's like 20 mini podcast episodes. That's why it's so long. Um, and it's great. It is great, it is thrilling, it is like life affirming, it is all of those things. So that was a book that really surprised me, not because I didn't think I would be interested, but because I didn't think I would be that interested, that interested. Yeah, I read that book, annie Bot, this year by Sierra Greer. That was a surprise.

Speaker 1:

It was like it's like about a robot girlfriend or something. I really like that. I remembered the author's name but not the book name, which is very odd because it's usually the reverse.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a pseudonym for her actually, oh is it really? Yeah, she's got some YA books in her real name. Okay, all right, so that one was sort of a surprise. Usually like genre, fiction is a surprise for me, like True Grit. Do you know that book? It's old, it's by Charles Portis. It's been a movie twice.

Speaker 1:

I was just going to say I know the movie, but okay, the book is so good, it's like a 1960s Western, but it takes place oh, you just lost me at Western. Okay, this a long okay.

Speaker 2:

This I'd never read a Western before.

Speaker 1:

Okay, phenomenal Like Lonesome Dove.

Speaker 2:

If I die without ever reading Lonesome Dove.

Speaker 1:

I'm okay, I actually do want to. I do want to try that book, Cause I know it is a classic, but I haven't gotten there yet.

Speaker 2:

This is much shorter. Okay, it's very short. It's like 200 pages, um, and it's sort of like a sendup of the genre a little bit. Um, and it's sort of like a send up of the genre a little bit, and it's got a teenage girl as the lead. It takes place in like 1870s, uh, maybe Arkansas.

Speaker 2:

It's really, really cute, it's really fun, it is you know, teenage girl among like bad cowboy kind of guys like trying to get revenge with these cowboys. Your setup of this is legendary. It's like in the tradition of those other, like of other books about teenage girls, sure, or like badass girls, like it's like Katniss right, like it's like in that same kind of thing, but back then, but back in the day, but that same kind of like tough badass girl who's breaking the rules.

Speaker 1:

All I can see is like not Laura Ingalls Wilder but that same kind of like tough, badass girl who's breaking the rules. All I can see is like not Laura Ingalls Wilder, but who, nancy, I don't know, you're too young for this. Did you ever see the Laura Ingalls Little House on the Prairie?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm familiar with that, but again, it wasn't really. That's all.

Speaker 1:

I can see is the character cousin who's like. Anyway, I don't know why, it's certainly probably is like that.

Speaker 2:

It's definitely yeah, she's tough girl, she's tough as nails. Anyway, I loved it, but that's a book that really surprised me.

Speaker 1:

My friend recommended it and I was like well, I love this book yeah there's, there's just, and there's just not enough time, right, there's so much and I think I'm often curious when I meet readers who are like just love books so much and love story and love all of that around it, like is it something that really helped you understand you, or is it and or is it something that you enjoyed living and experience that maybe you didn't get to live in your actual life. I mean, is it all of the above? Like what is your Like? Why do I like reading? Yeah, like what is your deep, the deep, why, behind why you love books? I mean, I do love a good story.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love a good story. I like good things. I know people say that about themselves. Probably everybody thinks they have good taste.

Speaker 2:

I don't know that I have good taste, but what I do know is that I love a good experience, whether it's a great meal whether it's a good movie, a good play, a good book, a good song, whatever, I will listen to a song and turn to my husband and be like that's a perfect song, that is perfect music. And I think the flip side of that is I also love to criticize things. I love to be like this is my favorite movie, but this scene should have been cut right. Like I, I get a thrill and a joy from reading something that I think is amazing and being like they said she was wearing a dress, but then later they said she had on a shirt. That to me, is like I gotcha.

Speaker 2:

Even if I love the book, I love criticism and critique and gossip and talking about things. So, as much as I love a book, I love the communal experience of talking about a book with other people, of pushing a book into someone else's hand. The greatest compliment is when someone says you told me to read this book and it was amazing. I'm like yes, I'm like sing to me, baby, that is the perfect song. So there's a lot of that. Stuff is why I love to read. I love when someone gets it right. I mean I read a lot of books that I don't think are very good because I read a lot of books in general.

Speaker 1:

Well, I was going to ask you will you ever just stop in the middle, like?

Speaker 2:

what's your philosophy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do.

Speaker 1:

You do and you just say this no.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, oh yeah, okay. Last year I judged a literary prize and so I had to Okay at it now. But sometimes I'll read a book and be like this is so bad, I want to finish it so I can talk about it. Oh, that's funny Because my rule is I will. I review everything on my Instagram that I read, that I finish, but I won't review something that I don't finish. So if I don't finish a book, you'll probably never hear me talk about it again because I didn't finish it, I didn't like it enough to finish it, or it wasn't the right book in the right moment. But if I finish your book, I will tell the world what I think about it. So sometimes I'm like I have to bitch about this book, Like this is so bad, and sometimes I won't know that I'm hating it as much until I get to the end. And then I'm like, oh my God, that was awful. Why did I do?

Speaker 1:

that I'm one of those weirdos where, like, it is really, really hard for me to not finish a book, even if it's horrible, or if I deem it to be horrible, I don't know it's like I have to finish it and also I feel like I keep hoping it'll redeem itself.

Speaker 2:

No, it never will.

Speaker 1:

I never does.

Speaker 2:

Right, but I do have that hope.

Speaker 1:

And I, I just it's like I feel like I I'm leaving it alone. Like I'm, I'm, I don't know, I just it's like I feel like I'm leaving it alone, like I'm I don't know, I just want to. Well, you can always go back to that's what I tell myself you absolutely can. In fact, you know funny story. Have you read you Could Make this Place Beautiful by Maggie Smith.

Speaker 2:

Yes, the one about her marriage. Yes, yeah, I did read it.

Speaker 1:

I read it last year I thought this was the story. I heard someone, and I don't remember where or I certainly don't remember who, but this woman had started reading it. If I remember correctly, it was kind of a famous person because it was set on a well-known I don't know something. And this individual had started reading it and was just like, I don't like it, like this is not for me, this is not good. And then fast forward, however long, she went through her own divorce and something compelled her to just pick it up again and she said this is magic. Yeah, this book is absolutely brilliant because it's what you said right place, right time. Sometimes we're just not. It's not for us right now. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I think like it's better to it's not for us right now, yeah, yeah, and I think like it's better to like if you think something might be OK but, you're just not into it. I think it's better to put it down for when it like is OK for you, versus if you're reading something and you're like this is bad, I hate this. I understand finishing that right away, because it's not going to ever be right for you.

Speaker 2:

Right, If you're like the writing is so bad, this is making my brain spin, or like because I read a lot of nonfiction, sometimes I'm just like I'm not interested in a whole book about this. Like the introduction was enough for me. I got the idea.

Speaker 1:

You got the whole, you know where it's going. It's like a Hallmark movie, exactly. You watch those because you know exactly that there's going to be a happy ending Exactly. Exactly, and it's the holidays, so I've started my like I'll see them all. Yeah, it's a problem. It's kind of a problem. Is there a book that you'll read over and over, like as in more than once, necessarily in succession, but maybe once a year, once every couple years? I don't have a regular reread I am.

Speaker 2:

As a child, I loved Charlotte's Web and I just started reading that out loud, chapter by chapter, to my kids, like one chapter a night, and I reread it like a few years ago, just for myself, before I had kids. So that's one that I've reread a few times. I am not a habitual rereader, though. I do not have like a comfort book or like a book that I return to.

Speaker 1:

Sure, no, okay, I only have two, and it's not habitual in the sense that there's a timeline on it, but out of all the books I've ever read, it's interesting because I'll watch a movie and clearly I'll watch a show like Friends over and over and over, but I won't go back and reread books. What are the two? The Alchemist and Anna Karenina?

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, I hate the Alchemist so much. Elizabeth.

Speaker 1:

Stop it right now, if I didn't already like you so much. I would end on this.

Speaker 2:

So my brother, who is my best friend, he loves that book. Actually both my brothers do.

Speaker 1:

Okay so.

Speaker 2:

I can love people who love the book.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, I hope so.

Speaker 1:

I hate it Because I am unabashed in my love of that book. Also, when you reread Anna Karenina we did that for book club a few years ago Do you reread the whole thing, like you go deep back into the agriculture stuff. You're into the farm. Yeah, that's where I thought I was going to. Well, at one point I challenged myself to read war and peace, which is really just a lot of war and then a lot of peace and back and forth, right, um, and then I thought, well, I'm going to read this again because I felt like I didn't really get the nuances. And I started in the second time and thought I can't do this again. Like I had to keep referring to the map and the table of characters. It was like no, but Anna Karenina, I get some. It's like the Alchemist. I get something different from it every time I read it, and I've read the Alchemist way more times than I've read Anna Karenina, because that's a tome.

Speaker 2:

Way less pages.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, I can read the Alchemist in a day and a half and I'm not a fast reader.

Speaker 2:

Me neither.

Speaker 1:

As much as I read. I'm not a fast reader, so tell me why you hate the Alchemist.

Speaker 2:

I just found it to be so not inspiring to me, really not inspiring to me Really. Follow your dreams. Like, okay, thanks. What are the other pages for? Like, I've heard that before.

Speaker 1:

Like you can boil this whole book down to three words.

Speaker 2:

Follow your dreams.

Speaker 1:

I feel like people like act, like it was like mind-blowing and I'm just like, yeah, he followed his little path in life, but he's every one of the characters he meets, okay, okay, I'm not trying to convince you at all, you won't be able to.

Speaker 2:

This is truly one of my most hated books.

Speaker 1:

Like, I really dislike the book. Okay, it's okay.

Speaker 2:

I know, I know that's what's great about books there's books for everybody.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm talking to somebody else this morning and I said Picasso, I don't get him Right, I don't get his pieces, I don't get why they're so valuable. I, to me it feels like a nine-year-old or a four-year-old, I don't know, it just doesn't feel. But people who are very into Picasso, they, they glean something different. Yeah, that is not, I guess, not common for a typical person to just be able to do I guess I mean, that's what's great about art, that's what that's.

Speaker 2:

There is art so that we have things to debate and talk about.

Speaker 1:

Debate. God, just give me something to debate, that's healthy, yeah, okay. Last question. This is a dangerous one for me to ask you, but what are you reading right now?

Speaker 2:

You've caught me on a great day. I am between books.

Speaker 1:

Okay, what'd you?

Speaker 2:

read last Okay so this morning I finished our November book club pick, which is Luster, by Raven Leilani.

Speaker 1:

Juicy. I keep hearing about that.

Speaker 2:

Juicy. Juicy Really loved it, had a great time with it. Big, messy book, Very divisive. Some people love it, Some people hate it.

Speaker 2:

I am currently listening on audio to Madoff, which is about Bernie Madoff audio to Madoff which is about Bernie Madoff. It's called Madoff the Last Interview and I don't understand not one thing about money. I don't know what a securities is. I don't know what an S&P is. I don't know not one thing.

Speaker 2:

And, quite frankly, most of this book is going over my head because I think a lot of what Bernie Madoff did was so basic. But also I have no clue what this man, Richard Behar, is talking about. But why I'm sticking with it is because in between every chapter on the audiobook there was actual audio of Richard Behar talking to Bernie Madoff from prison. Fantastic, that's fascinating. It's like three minutes every hour. Like these three minutes. You're like minutes every hour. Like these three minutes. You're like I'm here for these three minutes. I'm here, I don't, I don't.

Speaker 2:

I still don't understand what he did. I guess he took people's money and then didn't invest it at all. But he said he was investing it. But I'm not sure what he said. He was investing it in, like the author keeps being like if anyone had checked the statement and I'm like, right, what are they checking for? What? What is it supposed to say? And it keeps being like it's a regular checking account and I'm like a reg, like a really regular like mine, like mine. And then it's like so like I'm really struggling with the actual like what is happening here, because I keep calling things regular, that I'm like like my chase account, Cause Bernie has had a chase account, the 703 account, but I don't know if 703 is a kind of account or the last digits of it.

Speaker 1:

Like I have way over my head too. Oh, I see what you're saying, or that's okay, way over my head too, way over my head, but I'm enjoying it. I think that's an interesting thing that authors do when they record their audio books is sometimes they'll have a little brief thing, a little intermission, if you will, between chapters.

Speaker 2:

That gives someone who's actually read the physical book and reason to also be interested in the audio, because there's a little bit more to it. Yeah, for sure. So I like this book, but I also don't like. If this did not have those audio bits, I would have DNF'd a long time ago, so I have no clue not a single clue.

Speaker 1:

I'm definitely going to check out Luster. I think you're the second person who's mentioned that and I've seen it. I've seen the cover. I can see the cover in my brain right now. Luster's good and I think I'm going to start the Safe Keep which is that book?

Speaker 2:

I don't know, but it's Okay. I'll look it up and put it in the notes. This year it didn't win the awards, just came out while we were talking.

Speaker 1:

This is the worst segment, because I really rarely. The only one that keeps coming up is All Fours by.

Speaker 2:

Miranda.

Speaker 1:

July.

Speaker 2:

I think I'll hate it, so I'm not going to read it, do you really?

Speaker 1:

I haven't started it yet it arrived. It arrived after four people said I didn't want to like it and I loved it. I thought, yeah People like it.

Speaker 2:

People really like it. I don't know about you, but because I read so much and because I have this rule that if I finish something I have to talk about it, I really kind of know my taste. I know what I like and I know what I'm going to like and I am searching to like most things that I read. And so a book like that, just I just don't think I'm going to like it. So to like spend time with something I don't think I'm going to like, to either put it down or to finish it and then have to be like I don't really like it.

Speaker 2:

I just like I have trusted friends who tell like who I go to, who I'm like you've read like X, Y and Z, Well, I like it. And they'll tell me and you know that goes a long way because they're like trusted friends, not strangers, but like my book people and most of my been like I don't think so for you and I'm like really, Cause I have it, I have it, I can read it. They're like I don't think so, Okay, so I'm a stick and I'm staying away from it. People love it, Most people love it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it seems to be very uh, it's triggering something. Yeah, it's definitely doing.

Speaker 2:

I think it's my curiosity that has me. Yeah, I mean I'm hoping to enjoy it, but yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, thank you, I am so glad Jackson connected us Me too, and yeah, I will put everything in the show notes and onward. Now I'm going to go binge all 300, and God, you have a lot of episodes but I know it's like almost actually 400 because some of them have different number systems.

Speaker 2:

I think actually tomorrow's episode, I think, is 400.

Speaker 1:

Is it really? I did notice that you don't have a numbering system, as of late, I do.

Speaker 2:

Every episode has a number, but the bonus episodes don't.

Speaker 1:

And then I used to do those short stack episodes.

Speaker 2:

They had their own and we did a bonus series on banned books. So those are all kind of in the feed. But I think Jason is 345 maybe.

Speaker 1:

Tomorrow's episode is 345.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, tomorrow's episode is 345. Okay, but technically it's 400, which I don't know Got all I I? I intend to listen to the vast majority of them, so I guess I need to take a road trip. Yes, you do, or put it on.

Speaker 1:

Put it on 2.0. There you go, there you go. Yeah, oh my gosh. Well, thank you, this has been great.

Speaker 2:

This was so great. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.

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Elizabeth Lyons

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