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Write the Damn Book Already
Writing and publishing a phenomenal book doesn’t have to be ridiculously complicated or mind-numbingly overwhelming. From myths and misconceptions to practical tips and sound strategies, Elizabeth Lyons (author, book writing coach, book editor, and founder of Finn-Phyllis Press), helps writers feel more in control of and comfortable with the business of book publishing. Her interviews with fellow authors discussing their writing processes and publishing journeys aim to help you untangle YOUR process so you can finally get your story into the world.
Write the Damn Book Already
Ep 103: Memoir Writing with Sarah Gormley
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What if you could transform a lived experience into a compelling narrative that reads like fiction?
In this episode, I chat with the talented Sarah Gormley, author of The Order of Things. In a candid discussion about "memoir plus," we explore how memoir can deliver powerful messages while engaging readers with its storytelling.
The conversation also turned to the intricacies of publishing. We explored the merits of hybrid publishing versus publishing services, with insights into marketing strategies that can elevate an author's reach.
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Welcome to the Write the Damn Book Already podcast. My name is Elizabeth Lyons. I'm a six-time author and book editor, and I help people write and publish powerful, thought-provoking, wildly entertaining books without any more overthinking, second-guessing or overwhelm than absolutely necessary. Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory. If you're anything like me, I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most potent ways we connect with one another, and that your story, perspective and insights are destined to become someone else's favorite resource or pastime. For more book writing and publishing tips and solutions, oh, and plenty of free and low-cost resources, visit publishaprofitablebookcom.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's the month of Sarahs. The last episode we had Sarah Sawyer. This week we have Sarah Gormley Sarah's memoir, the Order of Things. I mean, it's technically a memoir but, man, it reads like fiction and that's a great compliment. I had such a hard time putting it down. I learned so many things about myself and I couldn't wait to talk to her about, well frankly, the Order of Things. Like how did she decide what was the Order of Things and what happened when that order flipped? How did she write through the messy stuff? How did she end up deciding to self-publish and what are some of the unexpected joys. It is a memoir about chasing joy, so what were some of the unexpected joys that came through as she wrote, as she edited, as she published? I've got all of Sarah's info in the episode notes below.
Speaker 1:Let's get on with the conversation. The way I found you was nuts, but not surprising. So you commented on we didn't know each other at all. You somehow I don't even think you were following me, but you commented on a post about my Amazon ads thing, correct and said you know, you had me at you dropped an F-bomb right away and I was like she's, that's my girl, I need to know her, because I don't know I. You had me at you dropped an F bomb right away and I was like she's, that's my girl, I'm, I need to know her. So what I'm doing? Does any do any of us? No, that's the thing, right, that nobody knows what they're doing.
Speaker 1:And so I went out. I checked out your profile. I saw your book. I went, I looked at your book. I something else drew me to your book. I ordered your book, I started reading it.
Speaker 1:Then you and I had a convo about Amazon ads and I was, and we decided right then and there let's not talk anymore about the book, cause I got to have you on here to talk about the book and I didn't want to waste any of it there. So since then I've read the whole book. I think I read it in two and a half days, which is a very brief time for me. I am not a fast reader, right? So some people can like pour through these things in three hours. I'm not. I'm not that girl.
Speaker 1:Okay, I am in love with this book and I have all the reasons why. I'm not just going to say that. I'm going to tell you why. Let's just start because I love to talk about authors, about their writing process, and so there is no better title for this book than the Order of Things when we parallel it to writing a book, because so often as authors and I'm curious about your experience with this we're like where do I start? Where do I put this chapter? When do I talk about thus and such? So how did you even I mean, this is like you could probably answer this question for the next two hours straight but how did you even decide where this thing would start and then where it would go?
Speaker 2:I'll answer as succinctly as possible, because it was a process, no. So, first of all, this was not the original title. Can you say what it was?
Speaker 1:Are you willing to say the original?
Speaker 2:title was this is what you need to know Pretty wordy, but I was committed to it and then I was like, oh, maybe it's just what you need to know, anyway. So I wrote a full manuscript in one year and pitched it to a couple of agents and got really similar feedback from two agents, okay, which I was like, okay, let's listen to them. And they both were like you need to narrow the time, because I was like I was born in Chambersville, ohio, in 19,. You know, then this, then this, then this, then this, and, trust me, there were some gorgeous scenes and I was trying to do the flashback element. It just wasn't tight enough. So in the process of editing which fucking sucks Right I started did you work?
Speaker 2:with an editor, or did you? Well, I kind of begged and convinced Christy Tate to help edit. Who wrote group and BFF? Who's?
Speaker 1:amazing. She's a. She's a just a little bit, and here's the sarcasm qualified to help you.
Speaker 2:I talked to her yesterday and every time she picks up the phone I say hello, new York Times bestselling author, and we're in bookstores and I like shout it. She gets so mad. Anyway, then I started like trying to revisit the big question of what is the book about and how hard it is to write. And that's when the theme of order came up for me, because I, you are trying to put order into something, to tell a story. But then my personal experience was I had these ideas about really what mattered most in my life, the order of magnitude, and now I'm starting to figure out that maybe isn't what mattered most. So I don't know, I just I landed on the title and it's still a little bit vague, and then I put the subtitle in at the very, very end.
Speaker 1:Well, I was talking yesterday to some of the people in my author's collective. We have a call every couple of weeks about this book, because two of them are writing memoir and just kind of sifting through all of the things that they've experienced, even related to a very specific period of time or event in their life. And it's like you kind of figure out the order of things pun intended by writing through the things yes, yes, and you figure out how you feel about the things by writing through the things and then I think like, did you ever have an instance? I think what happens to many people is they write through the things and then they start to have imposter syndrome or some version thereof, because they feel like maybe I don't understand myself or the things I've experienced well enough because in writing about it I'm already changing my mind or my perspective.
Speaker 2:And you have to commit right. You have to decide, decide and I'll give you, I think, a real example because it might be helpful to other writers. So the first full manuscript had this huge scene of my dad dying, and I still believe it's one of the most beautiful things I've ever written. He was in a hospice facility and I write about what that's like and it's moving, and my interactions with my siblings and my mother. I was so proud of it and upon revisiting what this book is about and what really matters to the story I'm telling, dad's death didn't matter Because my relationship with my dad was really pretty straightforward and so I had, I took it out and, and, and I still I'm sitting here and I'm already like, ooh, I'm going to make it a really good essay and submit it, and so that was figuring out the order of things, right.
Speaker 2:Like sorry, dad, the my, my relationship with my mom was complicated and the effect of our relationship on who I am today and the version of myself I was versus the version I am today much more important. So let's dig into that.
Speaker 1:And did you ever have a feeling of? One of the things that I've heard over and over again is if I cut it out and this isn't said verbatim right, it's a feeling If I cut this out, I'm saying it doesn't matter. Did you ever have that feeling? No, it's not that it didn't matter.
Speaker 2:It didn't matter to the story I was trying to tell yeah, exactly, and to make it a tighter, better story. It can't be everything. You have to make decisions and so you know the ease of reading hard subject matter the number of people who tell me they read it in one or two days and couldn't put it down and couldn't stop thinking about it had to do with the editing and and keeping things moving, because I had their attention, because they're interested in the character development. I hope so. I don't know if that really answers your question, but that was beautifully.
Speaker 1:No, it does for me. We talked briefly when we chatted before about this concept of memoir plus right. Or you used, I think, for a while it was like memoir with a message and now the term is memoir plus. And one of the things I loved about this book is it's fiction Like I could see it playing out on a screen. It read like fiction to me.
Speaker 2:Are you the one who did you just post a review on Amazon? No, I, just I will. I obsessively read my Amazon reviews. I do say they don't read them. And somebody just said reads like fiction and I'm like does that compliment.
Speaker 1:I think so Absolutely Because I, you know, I want it to read like the best memoir ever, but can it be both?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:I guess it's a compliment, because she seemed like she loves the book, whoever Lindsay Stevens is, but um, yeah, it's not me, I guess.
Speaker 1:I'd say the same thing, and to me that is such a compliment. Like I, I didn't read it. Like it, I don't even. I'm not sure exactly how to explain this, but sometimes with memoir the author is so invested in telling their story it's almost like it's not a built out character.
Speaker 2:Right, and maybe, maybe that goes back to the function of the editing, cause I like the editing, which was ruling to me. It's like every word line, chapter. I was like is this compelling to the reader?
Speaker 1:Doesn't matter if I love it.
Speaker 2:I have a whole section introducing my friends who are like my rocks and I introduce them one by one in these funny little descriptions and I'm like nobody fucking cares but me, Get it out. Does it propel the story?
Speaker 1:No, but some of your descriptions of your friends did. I felt like they came later. Right it out. Does it propel the story? No, but some of your descriptions of your friends did. I felt like they came later right.
Speaker 2:Yes, it comes later, but I had this big introduction to all of them in a whole section of when I graduated from college. Again, it all came out because I thought, well, I'm not sure the reader cares to the extent that it's important in this story.
Speaker 1:So and it's so interesting to me the way you describe that, because you know, oftentimes it's like when I, when, when people are in the editing, the self-editing process, and I say go back, especially when it's memoir or some version of nonfiction I go back and read it out loud and pretend this is hard to do. Go back and read it out loud and pretend this is hard to do. Pretend you're the reader, not the author, but the reader. How does this hit you? Right? And that can be. It can be helpful and dangerous for a variety of reasons equally. But I love what you said Like does this line, is this line compelling to somebody who doesn't know you, who doesn't?
Speaker 1:I mean, because it all was. I don't know that I've read another memoir that not in some time anyway, that grabbed me like this. Well, terrific, okay, thank you. Centered, loving relationship with her. And I'm curious how that became untangled so that you could write about it in such a way where you could say I felt like this, maybe growing up. But, man, I loved this woman, and not in a codependent way, not in a you know what?
Speaker 2:The answer to that is therapy, because God bless David. Right, god bless David. We talked to him yesterday. I wanted to present it as honestly as I could and I spent so much time angry with myself, self-loathing, pissed off at myself. I don't know how it happened and why it happened, but I don't have a lot of energy for blame. And so, even through the untangling and therapy and understanding that maybe I didn't really get what I needed from my parents, on some level they did the best they could with the tools they had, right, and so once and then with mom, specifically when I started looking at her as a human being and not just my mom.
Speaker 2:You know this is a woman. She was the youngest of three, the favorite child, a mother who never told her she loved her. By the way, her mother was basically abandoned as a child and her mother left her and went to Florida for six months every year, starting when she was an infant, and let another family I mean, it's all there, all the generational loaded word trauma alert. So I wanted to try to explain how you reconcile that and move forward and honestly, I paint the picture. I tried to. I, I mean, mom was iconic period, the end. If you met her once for seven minutes, you would still remember her and be talking about Susan Gormley. It's just who she was and I don't want to take that away from her because she makes me cry a little bit. She really was a force in so many people's lives in such a positive way. And both things can be true. They can coexist, yeah, and it's fucking complicated.
Speaker 1:And here's the thing, and this is when I put the book. I didn't put it down, but I grabbed my phone and I called three separate people. The first two didn't answer, so it was unfortunate for the third, because I said these are people who know me very, very well and I said you need, are you sitting down? I have to read you a whole chapter.
Speaker 1:I have to read you a whole chapter and a hundred percent it's page one 16. So let me look and see what what the chapter title is. It's oh, a knot versus a bow. Sarah, I have been in therapy on and off since I was like eight years old. I have had a lot of therapists and a lot of therapy and I love it and I love doing the introspective work and I've read all the books and I've listened to all the podcasts and I've tried to understand certain things. The way that you presented the information that David gave you in that chapter was all the therapy I will ever need to understand. My own experience.
Speaker 2:Oh well, gosh, I mean, thank you, thank you. What more does a writer want to hear?
Speaker 1:than that I didn't think it could get like. I read one thing that David said and his approach I appreciate so much, david, being your therapist, which you're public about in the book. I I appreciate his approach so much because it's not it seems like it's not okay, let's get into your hurt and let's um, uh, like, let's blame right and let's get mad. It's like he he helps you understand what you inherently already know and come to your own conclusions about things and their healthy conclusions and their positive conclusions. And as he was doing that and as you were responding, I don't want to give anything away here because this is such a valuable chapter, I think, for so many people and probably for different reasons than it is for me.
Speaker 1:So different people take different. Somebody else will say, well, sarah, god, chapter 30, you don't have chapter numbers, but this particular chapter was so moving for me and somebody else would say, oh yeah, I breezed through that Like it didn't, didn't hit me Right this chapter, I was done Well and you know I'm so, I'm so happy to hear that and I'll report back to david yes, please do.
Speaker 1:Please extend my thanks I knew again.
Speaker 2:It makes me sound like I'm such a great writer and I was stumbling along, fumbling along. But I did know that I really wanted the therapy scenes to give some nuggets for people who have not been to therapy, who are a little bit skeptical or scared, and actually show them the you know, let them hear the dialogue, see how messy it is. Like it's not like you go in and somebody tells you what's wrong and how to fix it.
Speaker 1:It's very that's what I was hoping for about 20 years there, but there are these little kernels, these nuggets.
Speaker 2:You know the velcro effect and romantic relationships like. As soon as you understand that, yeah, that you pursue and select a partner who projects back what you think about yourself.
Speaker 1:Every failed relationship makes sense and you're like well, shit, Exactly.
Speaker 2:But so I was, I was. I really tried to do that with a therapy chapters and not just make it blah, blah blah about Sarah's stuff, but make it something that's a universal learning.
Speaker 1:And the reason I love books like this so much is you know there's a place for the how-to books. I work on a lot of them. Right, there's a place for. Here's a step-by-step process to fill in the blank. I have such reverence for books that are you, allow space for the reader to read between the lines and glean from it whatever direction, instruction, inspiration, motivation they do based on where they are in their own journey. And I just think there are probably hundreds of those in this book for different people at different points in their life. And it's never you. I think it takes so much of the pressure off of the author because it's not you saying okay, here's what you do.
Speaker 2:Step one'm not a therapist, right? I don't know. This was my experience. I can tell you what happened for me and what worked and what shifted. But as I keep talking to people and going to book clubs and doing events, I can feel this kind of thesis bubbling up which is pretty simple, which is until you get your own shit right, no other relationship is going to be right Not work, not romantic, not kids. So I don't know. I mean, I'm a therapy head but that's kind of. But then again I'm like Ooh, that sounds preachy, you know, like walking on hot coals. So just keep it to the story and let it be what it is. For people and for some people, it's just an interesting story about this executive who moved home and that's entertaining. It doesn't have to be all deep.
Speaker 1:It absolutely doesn't. It absolutely does not, and I think that's a challenging thing. I'm fascinated with your comment that you read all your reviews and I want to ask you more about that, because everyone has a different opinion. Literally everyone has a different opinion about this. Some people are like don't ever do it. Some people say I read Amazon but not Goodreads, not even realizing that Goodreads is owned by Amazon, right? So there's so much crossover. Some people say you know, I only read the five stars, or I only read the one stars because they're. I don't know why they do that, but I've talked to people who will say that, or the one or the two stars, and I think the thing that we forget myself very much, included in this is people's reaction to a book.
Speaker 1:Good or bad is not a reflection of the book. It's a reflection of where they are, and that's not meant to put off responsibility for writing an air quote bad book. I don't believe that any of the authors I talked to set out to write a bad book. We're not talking about that sector, right that people who are just whipping things out and throwing it up there and hoping to make a million dollars. We put so much into our books, and so if it hits someone in a beautiful way, it's easy to feel so happy, of course, about that, and if it hits them in a bad way, it's easy to feel like, oh God, I shouldn't have said that or I should have said that differently. But it's important to recognize that it hits each reader based on where the reader is. Yes, so what's your purpose behind reading all that? Is it just entertainment reading all the reviews?
Speaker 2:No, I like the gold stars. You've met me Well. I haven't had a single negative review yet.
Speaker 1:They're all five star reviews and I keep thinking like, where are the good, like the thorough Give it time, and the reason I say that is because someone will hear this interview or another interview and the minute you say no one's ever written, someone's going to be like I'm going to be the one who wants, who's going to write it. Then they won't even have read the book, they'll just go out and be like this sucks that's not very nice, the other terrible the other thing, quite honestly, is that I'm a student of writing.
Speaker 2:I want constructive feedback, yes, and I've at a book club. I said tell me, tell me what you wanted more of, tell me, what did you find? Did you find the poems annoying? And you know, they were all so nice and lovely and so I was like, okay, it's perfect, it's a perfect memoir, you know? Um, so we'll see. I'm early in the process, I think so.
Speaker 1:Well, it's doing it. I have a few publishing questions for you. So you submitted to a couple agents. You ended up self-publishing, which I'm thrilled about.
Speaker 2:Or hybrid. I think it's technically hybrid because Girl Friday Productions did all the stuff to make it a book.
Speaker 1:So here it here's. This is so interesting.
Speaker 2:It's so complicated.
Speaker 1:No, it's, it's, it is, but it isn't. So remember, when we started talking right now and I said I was making this video and I didn't have my never hit record, it was about this topic, believe it or not. Okay, so hybrid versus a publishing services company, they are two different things. So hybrid now look it's like, as I said, it's like menopause, it depends who you ask, right. So this is like the law, according to Liz, today, october 24th 2024. I might change my definition as time goes on and things morph and move, but, as of today, hybrid is an investment on both sides. So the author pays the publisher and the publisher makes an investment when it comes to sometimes promotion, sometimes marketing, things like that, and they take a percentage of the back end.
Speaker 2:So financially I'm self-published.
Speaker 1:So you hired a publishing services company.
Speaker 2:Yes, and they, of course, can do any mix. They have a menu of services and they, of course, can do any mix. They have a menu of services and they were fantastic. And I said this is what I want help with. This is what I do not want help with, even if I need it, because I'm stubborn and overly confident. And that's where we ended up.
Speaker 1:Yes. So it's like if you are technically air quote self-published see the quotes right you could say I want to hire someone to do the formatting, I don't want to touch that. You could hire someone and most people do to say I want someone to design my cover, I don't want to touch that. You can hire someone to do the full shebang cover, interior, isbn registration, upload to all the services, distribute all the things. But the key with hiring a publishing services company is they don't make any money on the back end. Correct, once it's published, the author are investing up front. They're investing in some. It's a smaller amount because they believe in the book enough to think we could make something on the back end of this. But we're going to give the author a much higher royalty percentage than traditional publishing would give them. Right, yes, so that's my quick and dirty.
Speaker 2:Well, it's nice that I know this six weeks after my book is in the world.
Speaker 1:So so. So, Mark, mark it like in as soon as this episode airs. Someone will respond and say you're an idiot, liz. That is not what hybrid is and that's fine. It is complicated.
Speaker 2:I think it is. It's overly complicated. And guess what? Readers don't give a shit. I've been in a bookstore locally and my book is so beautiful I dare say so myself Do you give a shit? Whether it was self published, hybrid published or random house? They do not care. They do not care. So the stigma that is still associated with and you can hear it my voice I'm getting frustrated. Yep, it's like who cares? There are lots of books that get big book deals that are just okay, which also means there are amazing books that people aren't reading because they're not hearing about it, and I don't know how to fix that. I can barely hustle enough to get my own out, but it's a challenge and I don't fault anyone, because there are 4 million new titles a year, so how are people supposed to know?
Speaker 1:what to read. You don't. And every time I do this, this podcast, and I ask, and I'm going to ask you at the end what are you reading? I, or what have you most recently read? I have heard of next to none of them, and that is excites me to no end, because whether the book is traditionally hybrid, self, it doesn't matter it, it's a new discovery, like it's how I found you, it's it's. Sometimes people will say have you heard of so-and-so? No, oh, my gosh, she's written, or he's written, seven New York times bestsellers. I still haven't heard of him. Right, right, so that's kind of my life's work at this point in my life, because I am so passionate about all of the what I would call indie published so that would be hybrid or self who are just trying to get a great book out there. Right Question so you, it's a hardback and then there's a kindle version. Why no paperback audio book? Oh, there is okay why no paperback?
Speaker 2:why no paperback as of now? Just ego? Because I think I thought this was kind of like my shot and the cover art is so beautiful and I wanted it to feel and look like a piece of art on my coffee table and it makes me so happy to look at it and so so I'm going to.
Speaker 1:I'm going to tell you something at the risk of and if you want me to cut this out, I a hundred percent will, but I don't care. So yesterday, when I was talking about your book in my group and I was just raving about it and so immediately everyone went out and checked it out on Amazon and a person who was there, who shall remain nameless, said oh, shoot it's. I can't do $26 for a hardback, I don't want the Kindle. Why isn't it in paperback? And I said Sarah owns an art gallery, so I am imagining that there is a. An element of this is a piece of art and there's.
Speaker 2:no, this is not me telling you you should do a paperback because, well, as I said at the beginning, I don't know what I'm doing. So I mean, I've thought about trying to sell the paperback rights in a second book, traditional publisher. Yeah, you know, I don't know Like what. If I do write the treatment and sell something to Netflix, you think someone might want to buy the paperback rights. Then you know, I don't know, I have no idea. But you're absolutely right. That is why I wanted the hardback. No dust jacket, because I really I'm like, if no one likes it but me, it better be the most beautiful book I've ever seen. And so I was like, even if I'm crying and the reviews are terrible and nobody likes it, I will like it and I love it, I love this book and that is everything.
Speaker 1:So so often authors will be like well, which cover should I do? And of course, with traditional publishing it's like what's most marketable and you can't blame them. It's a business, for God's sake.
Speaker 2:And I would have had zero tolerance for that. I knew what the cover was. I sent it to them and said this is the cover. I fought with them about the internal, the interior layout.
Speaker 1:And I was curious about that. I wanted to ask you about that. So it's a little untraditional, which again, we can do anything technically. I loved the short snippets, and you'll have people say I don't like short snippets and you'll have people say I don't like long pair. It doesn't do whatever you want. I loved the shorter chapters. It kept me going. I would be just one more, just one more, just one more. It was like a nightmare, I mean a beautiful nightmare, but I didn't go to bed till 2.30 in the morning one night, so the next day was a nightmare. But your paragraphs, they don't indent the way it typically does. There's a blank space between and they're all left. What was your?
Speaker 2:thought on that. No, they're flush left and right, right, right, right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Now that's something that people should not, unless you're writing poetry, don't mess with that. But so they're justified, but they're not indented and there's a full blank space between every paragraph.
Speaker 2:There's a hard line break between paragraphs and the truth is I did not like the way it looked when they sent it back to me with the indentations, and I realized because that's not the way I write in my Google Docs, and it doesn't feel good to me and it felt messy. I like clean lines and the subject matter is so difficult in certain chapters. I want every reader to have a breath, I want there to be space on the page, I want it to feel quiet and elegant and basically I told Girl Friday Productions like no, no, this isn't a discussion. I'm telling you, I'm paying you to do this. Do it the way I want.
Speaker 1:So they pushed back. Did they push back a little bit, or? Were they trying to cause? I've heard great things about Girl Friday. Were they trying to just kind of say this isn't the way it's normally done?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, no, they didn't push back really hard.
Speaker 1:It was just guidance.
Speaker 2:They were wonderful and they're like, just so you know, and we got there, but they I can't say enough good things about them. Highly recommend.
Speaker 1:I've heard very, very good things about them and that's why, you know, there's all this like a debate in the industry of real publishers. Don't ever, you don't ever pay a real publisher and we can. Yes, I agree, right, and there are all these different ways now and new organizations and companies that are coming to the forefront Many of them not great, by the way, but many of them great and so we need to elevate the ones that are doing great work for authors and really being their partner and saying look, at the end of the day, this is our guidance, based on our expertise and our experience. You're the author. What do you want? Right, that's what you're paying for. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I might you know, I might see how the next few months go six months, I don't even know whatever and then be like like, oh, let's try paperback. Yeah, I don't know, I'm open to anything. I do have an audio book coming. The audio book is coming, I think in a week, and did you narrate it? No, my best friend did, because which I'm pitching a story idea to people magazine about it because I was like I can't narrate this thing. I cry. I mean you say my mom's name and I cry. I know I can't narrate this thing. I cry. I mean you say my mom's name and I cry I can't do this. And she said, well, I'll do it. I was like, how do you know how to narrate a book? She said, well, I was a DJ in college.
Speaker 1:That is too much.
Speaker 2:And we have very similar sort of intonations. And it was a lot, it was a big commitment. It took her about, like you know, 18 hours of reading and editing and it's, but so I can't wait for it to come out.
Speaker 1:I did read the author's note and I got through that fine, so that's great, yes, so tell me a little bit about marketing real quick and how you're enjoying that. I know. If everyone could see your face and your eye, it's like how are you, what are you enjoying and what is a little more, I guess, tedious or unexpected and kind of a God. How do I figure this out? Way?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I mean, I kind of I give myself like a solid B plus on my social and like a D plus on, you know, national media, and I know that this book isn't going to take off unless there's some big national, you know, and I don't know why I say take off. My goals were to create a book that I love, that I'm proud of and have it on my coffee table. I did that. I did that. My goal is also to cover my costs. I'm about 2000 books away from covering my costs, so I think I'll get there.
Speaker 2:But now that the book is in the world and people are responding to it so positively, I feel like I need to get her out there more, and so I that's, and I'm really hard on myself and always have been, so I'm trying to do smart things. I have an essay coming out in Huffington Post yes, so that could get some eyeballs. I am, as I mentioned, I'm working on a treatment for to send to some producer folks and see if you know. I think it's a beautiful story that could be in a gorgeous setting. I think it would lend itself to that, and I have all the intellectual property Right, so I own it so I'd be an easy. So anyway, that's what I'm doing, it's, it's. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just making it up and talking to book clubs. I did one corporate event, you know, so it's not like it's all be figured out tomorrow. I'm just trying to go and talk, can I?
Speaker 1:ask what was the corporate event? Based on a memoir. How did you?
Speaker 2:It was a woman who owns a company here in Columbus and she's actually in my new book club here and she loves the book and thought that kind of the core message and tenant about your emotional health would resonate with her entire staff, and so came in and did like a fireside chat. It was great and I love to hear that, and so came in and did like a fireside chat.
Speaker 1:It was great and everybody loved to hear that, and so, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2:So I, you know I'd be interested in doing more of that, I don't. You know, I don't think I'm kind of a paid speaker on a big stage kind of thing. It doesn't feel like that to me. But there, to the extent that there are a lot of people, especially women, in careers that look great on paper and they're wildly unfulfilled, you know, there are some compelling messages in the story.
Speaker 1:And I love to hear the application of that, because I think oftentimes there's the thought of well, I can't do corporate engagements or corporate speaking events unless I've written about how to leverage your communications department or how to write. And it's like the discussions about mental wellness. Mental health and wellness are quite valid they always have been but I think they're getting more of a spotlight now in corporations.
Speaker 2:And I think that that's you know. I had some big brands on my resume and I think there are so many books that tell you what to do. And you sit I've been to the seminars, I've been to the conferences and you're sitting there and you're like, yeah, I need to do that, I need to do that. And then you go back to the slides you were working on and the meeting you're prepping for for the next day, and then you're traveling for this conference and you don't remember one thing the big fancy speaker talked about or what you're supposed to do, and I do think, like mine is a story of a real person who struggled with universal hard shit. So I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I'm not answering your question. So you actually know you are, you are, you are because it's so true.
Speaker 1:I think there is this feeling or this sense of well, how do I go to an event and I don't know how, how do I rah rah people up, right With a topic like this? But the point I hear you making is it's not always about rah rahing them up, because lots of times they get rah-rah-ed up and then by the end of the weekend they're just back to their regular thing thinking, oh, I can't do that. I think it's a smaller, more slowly introduced introspection. If I went to a whole weekend thing and someone planted just one small idea, like you did in the chapter on page starts, on page 116, that I can nurture and and marinate in for the next several weeks, that's going to have more of a long term impact on me than jumping up and down and dancing and having the music play and all that.
Speaker 2:That's just me and I try to be sensitive to that and walk a good line, because there's part of me that can be cynical about self-help books and life coaches. And the truth is, whatever works right, whatever works for you, whatever becomes the catalyst for change. Sometimes it's a friend who says hey, got news for you. You're a little fucked up right now. You got to figure some things out right, but whatever the source is. So I've done several podcasts with life coaches who love the book because it's a story of, and I'm showing exactly what happened and being super candid about the good and the bad. So I don't know, I'm curious to see where it all goes and I'm trying to enjoy it, but there are days where it's like of course, yes, okay.
Speaker 1:So last question I told you I was going to ask you what are you reading now, or what have you read recently that you really enjoyed?
Speaker 2:I am reading two things. I am reading Anna Tendler's Men have Called Her Crazy, and I'm also reading All Fours by Miranda.
Speaker 1:Delon oh.
Speaker 2:God, okay, I know that's for good. No, I know?
Speaker 1:So anybody who listens, do I have any regular listeners? So anybody who listens, do I have any regular listeners? This is the fourth time, no pun intended, that that book has been mentioned as something that they either are reading or recently read, and everyone who says it is like I know this is way out there. I'm almost embarrassed to say I was reading this, but it was so good that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and I you know I go through spells where I'm reading everything and kind of like not reading a lot, and so in the last, honestly, six, eight months I haven't been reading a ton. I will, I will tell you and, for people who are listening, if you're interested in mental health journeys and a good juicy storyteller, meg Kissinger wrote a book called While you Were Out and I have a really good Meg story. I won't bore you with it, but we both went to DePauw University and it's actually too great of a story. So I gave a talk at my 25th class reunion and it was a bit about some of the subject matter in the book and it was gorgeous and lovely and I got a standing ovation, all these things. And this woman came up to me at the end and she had really sparkly eyes and she said you should write a book. And I said back to her well, have you written a book? She said no, but I teach journalism at Columbia and that was it. Didn't know who she was. Fast forward to this year I'm, I find out that she has written this book called While you Were Out and I read it before I actually knew that she had gone to DePauw and I certainly didn't know that she was the woman who came up to me. Okay, because I didn't know who she was.
Speaker 2:So then I'm asking people to do praise quotes or blurbs. I reach out to Meg Kissinger because our school everybody does nice things and would you possibly give me a praise quote? I would love to. Again, I don't know that she was there. I don't hear from her. I follow up. Sorry to bug you. I'm a newbie author.
Speaker 2:Little dumbass, are you still willing to do a praise quote? And she says well, of course, I haven't stopped thinking about your story since I heard you speak and I was like, oh my god, oh my god, and I were. This is via email. And I emailed back and I said oh my god, are you the woman with the sparkly eyes who came up to me and said you should write a book, because if so I'm going to pass out? And she emailed back well, get your smelling salts, because that was me. Anyway, she interviewed me in Chicago and her book is so gorgeous, new York Times bestseller, but it explores it's a little memoir plus she is a journalist, so she explores what happened within her own big Catholic family eight children, two of whom died by suicide, and she explores what they didn't talk about and why. And then the second part of the book is more of an exploration of the state of mental health today. So great book, highly recommend.
Speaker 1:I love the way the world works.
Speaker 2:Oh my.
Speaker 1:God, I can't. I mean just coming full circle on this conversation. The way you and I connected, like what? What I know?
Speaker 2:It's so fun. There is beauty, there is beauty.
Speaker 1:Well look for, for as convoluted and complicated and insane as this industry is, I don't think I'd rather be anywhere else and I like simple, peaceful, and for all those reasons it's like what am I doing in this space? But I love it so much because of the people I connect with.
Speaker 2:And you're helping people Like that's the thing, Like I'm like, well, I don't know what to do on Amazon. Tell me, help me.
Speaker 1:And I'm, I'm.
Speaker 2:I might be go ahead. No, because of your experience and I'm already thinking like I might just put out on Instagram I'm going to hold a zoom call for anybody who's writing a book and wondering about my publishing journey. I don't, I'm not going to charge you for it. I'll tell you everything I learned. You know who did that Laura Belgray.
Speaker 1:Have you heard of Laura Belgray? So she wrote a great book, so great it's called Tough Titties, and she is a masterful copywriter, does a lot of work with Marie Forleo. If you're familiar with Marie Forleo, with her copy course and that was the should book I she was on the many I'll link the episode in the show notes with Laura. So she did a thing that was one of her pre-sale bonuses, right? Her pre-order bonuses, if I'm not mistaken, was if you pre-order, you can come to this fireside chat via Zoom and I'll tell you everything there is to tell you. I think she was with Simon Schuster. I could be wrong, but it was a big five and she spilled it all and I think there's so much benefit to that because there's so much misinformation about this space. It's wild, it's wild.
Speaker 2:And it's because. It's because the product and I know this from running the art gallery when the product is entirely subjective and I don't care what critics say it is, I mean, take out the 5% of the best books ever written and the 10% that are pieces of shit. Okay, everything else tastes not truth, as my mother would have said. So every author and every book has a different journey in life.
Speaker 1:Yep there are so many variables, there's so many variables and I've said it a million times the only thing about the publishing process that's linear is the actual publishing process. That doesn't really change much, at least it hasn't but everything else is subjective. There are variables, there's context. To consider all of it and it makes it difficult when you don't either understand it or acknowledge it, or accept it, or all of the above.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think you know. For me it was like getting really clear about why I was doing this, and that's hard, right, and I remind myself every day. Now, you did this because you wanted to figure out what happened in your life. You admire great writing. You wanted a book that you're proud of, with your name on it, that looks beautiful on your coffee table. The rest should be gravy. So slow down, calm the fuck down and just keep going, and so that'd probably be my primary piece of advice. And then the rest of it is mechanics. But what author comes into writing and says, well, my goal is to be a New York Times bestseller. Well, good luck. Many, many do that, but then I think that takes some of the joy out of the process. So I don't know.
Speaker 1:Well, it puts an expectation, it puts a goal. That goalpost is always moving, I think, and so, and how to get there is always moving, and an understanding of what it takes to get there is is not well had by many people, and so I, I, I agree with you that. That let's you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's like the math. I post about this on social too, just because I'm learning. It's like oh, 4 million new books come out a year. Well, you know why bookstores aren't clamoring to have your stunning debut memoir? Because they don't know who the hell you are. Because they have to go through some mechanism to choose out of the 4 million new titles every year, Like, oh, okay.
Speaker 1:And they need those books to sell because that's how they make money and keep people employed. Their origins are terrible. Yeah, nobody's making any money.
Speaker 2:I'm all doom and gloom.
Speaker 1:Let's end this before it goes to hell, and, on that note, thank you so much, though, for doing this. I'm so delighted to know you and to just keep all the things. Thank you. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message, but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out publishaprofitablebookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening, and I'll talk with you again soon.
