Ep 69: Women's Fiction Writing with Sarahlyn Bruck

Have you ever wondered how authors juggle character's voices when writing from multiple perspectives? In this episode of the Write the Damn Book Already podcast, it's just one aspect of the creative labyrinth I chat through with Sarahlyn Bruck, author of Light of the Fire (Lake Union Publishing, January 2024) as well as Daytime Drama and Designer You.  

INTERVIEW HIGHLIGHTS

• The evolution of authors' writing processes and the essential practice of breadcrumbing to keep readers hooked.
• The art of writing in multiple POV
• Unforeseen delays and the art of book release timing 
• Personal challenges authors face when weaving their personal threads into the tapestry of fiction and memoir
• Sarahlyn's experience working with a book coach (she still has one!) and the impact of editorial feedback

ABOUT SARAHLYN

Sarahlyn Bruck writes contemporary, book club fiction and is the award-winning author of three novels: Light of the Fire (January 2024), Daytime Drama (2021), and Designer You (2018). When she’s not writing, Sarahlyn moonlights

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:52

Welcome to the Write the Damn Book Already podcast. My name is Elizabeth Lyons. I'm a six-time author and book editor, and I help people write and publish powerful, thought-provoking, wildly entertaining books without any more overthinking, second guessing or overwhelm than absolutely necessary. Because, let's face it, some overthinking, second guessing and overwhelm is going to come with the territory. If you're anything like me, I believe that story and shared perspective are two of the most potent ways we connect with one another, and that your story, perspective and insights are destined to become someone else's favorite resource or pastime. For more bookwriting and publishing tips and solutions, oh, and plenty of free and low-cost resources, visit PublishAProfitableBookcom and for recommendations of fabulous books. You've possibly never heard of bookwriting inspiration and the occasional meme so relatable. You'll wonder if it was created with you in mind. Follow me on Instagram at Elizabeth Lyons author. Oh my gosh. Honestly, just when I think I've met all the cool kids, I meet another one and they're all on the East Coast which well, not all of them, but a lot of them are on the East Coast, which is making me think I need to plan a trip back to my homeland. If you don't know, I'm from Delaware. I know many people don't know where Delaware is, but it is on the East Coast and I haven't been back in a very long time.

Speaker 1 2:21

In this episode of Write the Damn Book Already, I got to meet and speak with Sarah Lynn Brock. To say it was the highlight of my week is an understatement. And it's only Tuesday. Sarah Lynn is the author of three books. Her third book, light of the Fire, comes out January 23rd of 2024 with Lake Union Publishing and, as you know, I let these conversations go where they go and I'm never disappointed, knock on wood, with where they end up going.

Speaker 1 2:49

This one was so much fun. I know you are going to absolutely love Sarah Lynn's revelations about bookwriting, bookcoaching, book publishing, her publishing experience, her editing experience, multiple POVs all of it and way over time, and I still didn't even get to some of the questions that I wanted to ask based on what she was saying during the interview. So all that means is that we're going to have to do this again, but for now, enjoy this interview with Sarah Lynn Brock. All of the resources to get in touch with her, to order her books, to pre-order her next book all of it are in the show notes. Light of the Fire is book three yes. Book three yes, yes.

Speaker 2 3:29

Yes.

Speaker 1 3:29

I'm not going to get to the submission. I'm not through it yet, but I'm going to get through it, probably in about two to three days, once I start it, because I'm completely hooked oh, okay, completely hooked and also completely impressed with you, because is it trip? Is it three points of view?

Speaker 2 3:52

It's not dual it is. Yeah, it started out as dual, but it is three.

Speaker 1 3:57

Yeah, it's three now. Yeah, because I'm on the third now, okay, and I'm like this is a masterpiece. I never appreciated how hard dual POV or multi-POV is to do until I considered doing it myself, and I quickly aborted the mission.

Speaker 2 4:17

Okay, but you're writing your first novel right now, right Okay, and it's single POV, but you're thinking about doing more than one I was.

Speaker 1 4:27

I'm not anymore.

Speaker 2 4:29

Well, what do you think of people who can do multiple POVs and then multiple timelines?

Speaker 1 4:36

No, no, no, I knew you were going to say that I knew you were going to say that. That makes my brain blow up.

Speaker 2 4:40

I'm like I don't see how they can think of all of that stuff and map it all out. It just makes my brain hurt.

Speaker 1 4:47

No, it's one of those things again where when you're reading it and it's done really well, you don't even think about how hard it is to create. From the creative standpoint, you're just like I am in this. This is great when you start looking at it from a craft perspective. I can barely right now, sarah Lynn, just write a scene in the present tense in the first person. I have days, so the idea. Okay, this brings me to my first question. So your other two books Designer you and Daytime Drama are they dual POV? Because now I have to get my hands on those two, of course.

Speaker 2 5:31

Okay, so my first one is single POV. I kept it really simple. I'm so glad I did, I'm so glad I did, and it was really. It was just her story. It was just this, you know, my protagonist story. My second book oh my God, I had so many POVs in that book. I really brought it back when.

Speaker 1 5:57

I wrote my second book.

Speaker 2 5:59

I think I may have had six POVs and we had one main character but we had all of these other characters that were sort of circling around her and I thought it was really fun just to get and it actually was. That book was so much fun to write it set like in the world of soap operas and Hollywood and it's about a soap opera actress and all of the people who are, you know, in her orbit and that was really fun to kind of get into the head of her boyfriend and her ex and her son. I loved her son and her mom. You know it was just. It was really fun to kind of get into into those, those POVs, but it was definitely a juggling act for sure.

Speaker 1 6:44

So did you choose to do it that way? Because you wanted to challenge yourself to do it that way?

Speaker 2 6:48

Okay, yeah, absolutely yeah. And with every book I'm, you know, I hope each one gets better as as I go.

Speaker 1 6:56

Yeah, that's right, we've crossed right.

Speaker 2 6:58

Right, but but I do like to kind of challenge myself, you know, with, with each one, with oh, I'd love to try, you know, like POV, or I'd love to kind of throw in a little bit of a mystery element, or I'd love to try, you know, a little bit of a love story, you know that kind of stuff that initially I found, you know, really scary. So so anyway, yeah, hopefully.

Speaker 1 7:23

So who encouraged you, if anyone, to pull back from the 27 POVs in book two?

Speaker 2 7:29

Oh, my book coach. I worked with a book coach. Okay, I work, I work with a book coach, you still do.

Speaker 2 7:36

Yeah, I do, and actually we're very dear friends and so it's really fun to be able to work with someone who is she's light years ahead of me but still like more and more of an equal, and I just I rely on her advice so much. I really really trust her and we have such a great, such a great working relationship. But we're also just dear friends. She's she's good, she's planning on coming to my launch and she lives in Canada.

Speaker 1 8:08

Oh, I love that so much, I know. Like when you see someone for the first time and you feel like you're the very best of friends. But you've actually never laid actual in real life, IRL as they say we have. Has she come to New York?

Speaker 2 8:22

every. You know she comes to New York every year for a conference and so I'll meet her. I'm in Philly so I'll meet her up there. So we have met in real life, but she's never been able to come to any of my book launches. And so she and she likes to do that with her clients. She's just the, she's the greatest.

Speaker 1 8:39

How did you find her?

Speaker 2 8:41

I used to be a book coach, so how did I not know that? Oh, that's okay, cause it's not on my bio or anything like that yeah.

Speaker 1 8:49

Well, that would be how.

Speaker 2 8:50

but nevertheless, I don't. I don't do it anymore. I really really enjoyed it. But back when I was writing my first published book, I reached out to Jenny Nash from author accelerator and she had come and spoken at one of my UCLA extension classes and I really, really liked her. And so when I was writing designer you, I reached out to her about book coaching because I just wanted, I just wanted some feedback, I wanted some, you know, some kind of accountability and that, like I've got a deadline. I really love deadlines, I really respond to them.

Speaker 1 9:30

So that book was agented, like you had sold that one.

Speaker 2 9:33

No. So when you say you had a deadline.

Speaker 1 9:35

was it self-imposed or Self-imposed?

Speaker 2 9:38

Okay, yeah. So, and that was what part of what a book coach does is like we'll say, okay, give me 10 pages by the, you know, every week. And so it's like, and for me I'm such a goody two shoes. I was like, oh okay, yeah, absolutely Never miss a deadline, you know. So I really respond to that.

Speaker 2 9:58

And anyway, jenny Nash was just starting up author accelerator and she said, hey, don't you teach writing? And I was like, yeah, I'm a writing professor. And she said, why don't you come in be a book coach for me? And so I was one of her first author accelerator book coaches and I found it so much fun and it was through. I was found it fun working with clients, but I also loved work, you know, working with a book coach to help my own writing. And so she connected me with Dawn, who is also one of the early book coaches in author accelerator, so and now she's got her own thing going and she's doing really well and she's still writing and anyway, she's fabulous. But yeah, I love book coaching, just, you know, from both sides of it, because I've seen how well it works, just personally for me.

Speaker 1 11:41

Yeah, and probably the first person I've talked to who both has been one and uses one. Yeah, I really believe in it. I do too. I mean, it's kind of like well, the analogy I always use, and I don't know why, but is that like? The girl who does my hair doesn't do her own hair? You know, you want someone. Like neurosurgeons don't operate on their own brains.

Speaker 2 12:05

No Right.

Revising and Story Development in Writing

Speaker 1 12:08

You know, finding someone who can see through the muck yeah Of what you're doing with fresh eyes and lend some clarity to it. For me, it's the only way that my novel has continued to evolve.

Speaker 2 12:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1 12:23

So you're working with a book coach too. Well, it's funny. She's not officially a book coach, it's actually. Her name is Nealey Alexander. She's a. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 12:31

Her debut, love Buzz, came out in May. Her second comes out in March, in a not so perfect world as the title, with Harper Perennial. And she is just. She could be a book coach if she wanted to. I mean, she is so good at number one, being like gutted out, gutted out, gutted out. Just get the story on the page. You'll go back later.

Speaker 1 12:56

I'm not listening very well to that directive because I tend to get mired in the details Of wherever I am in the story. But the other thing is she can look at it Like she's removed. One of the things I always say as a book coach is half the story is in our head and we think it's on the page, but it's not. So when a reader goes and reads it, you know they're not. They don't have ESP, we're not transmitting it that way. So there are little elements that they're missing. And when she first read my she's now read my first chapter like five times. It's been redone over and over again because she'll say okay, elizabeth, why is this important? And in my brain I know why it's important. But I haven't made that clear. No, have I laid any kind of like a curiosity? I haven't intrigued anybody to want to know why it's important. I've just said this thing.

Speaker 2 13:52

Yeah, yeah, it's like that you need to kind of set out those breadcrumbs and stuff, and it's like that's one of those things that I don't know, at least for me. I do that on a second pass or a third pass. You know what I mean. It's like I tell my, I tell my writing students. You know, the first time the first draft is for you. You know I might have heard this advice right.

Speaker 2 14:16

So the first draft is for you, so you understand what it is that you're trying to say, whether it's, you know, an argument paper or a poem or whatever. And that's the same for me too. My first draft is so that I know what the hell I'm trying to say. And then, from the second draft on, it has to be for the audience. It has to be so that the audience understands what it is I'm trying to say. And so you know, going through like that metaphor of like painting with layers, you know what I mean. And it's like I feel like bread crumbing is one of those layers. It's like, oh, you have to give hints of things to come, otherwise why would the reader care?

Speaker 1 14:57

But sometimes you don't know what those things are until you've written them. So that's another thing that Nealey has really continued to remind me of is you know, you won't know what the bread crumb should be until you've written chapter 13.

Speaker 2 15:10

You're on chapter eight.

Speaker 1 15:12

So that's why you've just got to get, and I always say to my, my authors the first draft is just you and this isn't my own thing that I came up with, somebody else did, but it's just you telling yourself the story or reminding yourself of the story or the message if you're writing memoir or nonfiction. But from there you get to. I love the layer analogy I I have heard that was yeah, yeah, exactly, I've heard that one.

Speaker 2 15:37

And when it came to me, when I, when I heard that metaphor, I was like, oh, that's totally how I write, like I you know, I start kind of small in this layer as as I go, and it means that sometimes, you know, I'm revising for what seems like forever, but Well, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 15:56

That's an interesting question. What portion would you consider is Writing like getting the first I'm putting air quotes here the first draft Versus revising, because now that you're saying that, I'm thinking, man, I think that we actually all spend Like 85% of our time air quote revising right, I think it's all writing.

Speaker 2 16:19

I think it's okay, revising is writing, but but I don't know, I think it differs from writer to writer. Some people can just pump out a first draft so fast and I'm like whoa, that was, you just did that in six weeks, like wow, I am not that person, but you know. But it is amazing when somebody can do that but then they spend, you know, the the next year so revising, it, revising, and which is still writing, you know. But I still I feel like, especially with working with someone, you know, having someone Give you feedback as you go, so that you know, so that you're you're more confident in that, or at least I'm more confident that I'm not gonna write my way into a hole, so you know what I mean, and so that I'm literally having somebody saying, oh, where is this going? And it's like, oh, I don't know, let's talk about that.

Speaker 1 17:19

I Actually have no idea, because I've had authors before come to me with 90,000 words or 80,000 words and typically this is memoir and nonfiction, not fiction. I've only recently started working with authors who are writing fiction. But Because I'm doing you know it's, I'm never comfortable Coaching. I never understand book and this isn't a dismissal of anyone but I don't understand book coaches who have never written a book. Hmm, it's. I'm not saying you can't do it, especially if you're a teacher, if you're a writing instructor or yeah.

Speaker 1 17:54

Expertise, but but people who just step into this space and are like today I've decided, I'm a book coach Like yesterday. I was a life coach. Today I'm a book coach. Right, they've never written a book. So for me, I I have been Dabbling in fiction for 20 years. I mean I wrote my first and I all the air quotes in the world are around this novel in 97. Wow, I would be Horrified it will never see the light of day. It is, yeah, so cringe, awful me too.

Speaker 2 18:28

I got one of the really yeah, of course. Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 18:33

Oh, I don't even think I could read it now, don't?

Speaker 2 18:36

you think that that Wasn't time lost because you learned something from it. You know what I mean. It's like one thing that you have to have as a book coach whether or not you write you've written a book or not and I agree, I think it would be really, really difficult to be an effective book coach if you haven't actually done the thing Right. But you have to have a really keen eye for story, you know, and that was like I have a book that I wrote like 20 years ago or something.

Speaker 2 19:09

It's not even like a full book, I think it was like 50,000 words of a book and anyway it, and that was one that I wrote my way into a hole and I was like, oh, I think I need to take some classes and learn, learn how to do this, because I don't think I really understand. You know, I'm a reader, I've been a reader for a for a really long time and I, you know, I have a masters and I know how to teach Writing and all of that kind of stuff, but I, I don't think I really have a grasp of what Story actually is, and so I think I need to go and learn that and that having that. And actually I have two books that are in a drive, another one that I wrote after Learning what story was, and it just wasn't as successful. It just wasn't really publishable. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 19:56

But I learned that. Just so fascinating.

Speaker 2 19:59

Yeah, me too, like I think there are a lot of us who have books that Didn't really go anywhere but they really taught us. If I hadn't written those two failed attempts and I, you know, fail in air quotes Um then I wouldn't have been able to write, designer you and get that one published. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 20:20

It's. I find this part fascinating because so often, as a book coach, people will say well, listen, I don't want to waste, this is wasted. Right, they don't want to cut material, because I'm also an editor. So if I'm editing and I say, you know, this is we're off on a tangent or this is not, this is peripheral and it really isn't feeding the story in any way, shape or form. They understandably feel I would too like oh my god, you're gonna kill 12 000 words like this is, you know, holy cow. But the thing is it isn't ever wasted, because you never know, number one, when it'll come back around. I mean going back to nealy, because I'm apparently her biggest fan and I'd probably be considered a stalker if she hadn't become such a good friend At this point, she was on my blog.

Speaker 2 21:06

by the way, she was on my author spotlight series.

Speaker 1 21:09

Yeah, really yeah, I hope she comes back for her second book.

Speaker 2 21:13

I hope she, oh she will have to reach out to her.

Speaker 1 21:15

She's just amazing. I, I absolutely love her. Um, she tells the story regularly that her first book Well, the first one she wrote, not love buzz, but the first one she wrote she hired a developmental editor and they, they trashed her. I mean trashed it, trashed her like it was awful, like the feedback was so harsh.

Speaker 1 21:36

It was horrible. I just it made me so. She was like I'm never, this is never going to see the light of day. But she, as she said, she stripped it for parts. So there were pieces of that book that made it into love buzz or that had an Uh an effect on love buzz. You know that influenced aspects of love buzz. And then what was interesting is that for love buzz she didn't choose to hire a developmental editor before she. She has an agent, I mean obviously because she's with harper, but before she got she didn't. And she was the one who kind of turned me on to this notion that there are some agents who don't want I want to talk to you about your experience in publishing too but who don't want you to have a developmental edit done before you bring the book to them, because they want to see what you're Capable of without oh, interesting, that kind of feedback, not what you're capable of that that makes it sound but they want to see what's you Versus what's you with assistance.

Speaker 2 23:12

Right, right, huh, that's interesting. I, I feel like Writing being an author is I get enough alone time? I really do. I mean, I spent you know Few hours today already by myself with my own thoughts, in putting them on my computer, and I just I feel like there's not enough. It's People don't say it enough that there, this is really a team effort, like putting a book out into the world.

Speaker 2 23:45

Yes, is a team effort and yes, it does start with the author. It does, and it is your idea and your words. But, good grief, the product, you know light of the fire, is the product that you see is it's. It's so much more because of the people who Worked behind the scenes on this book, and that includes Don, my book coach, it includes my agent, it includes her assistant, it includes my acquisitions editor, it includes my developmental editor, it includes my coffee editor, my proofreader, my book cover designer. Oh my god, I love this cover so much. I love the cover. I mean, like all of that was not me, you know, and it's that in that product that you you see online, that you see on amazon or you see on bookshoporg is A team effort. For sure, it is not me alone.

Speaker 1 24:48

Well, this is a super interesting now. I didn't even plan to dive into this, but you just entered the like open the door, so let's just go. So light of the fire is lake union. Yes, yes and um. I've been so intrigued by lake union. I interviewed and garvin a few weeks ago about my god.

Speaker 2 25:06

I just finished her book. Oh my god, I love her. Which one? The latest one?

Speaker 1 25:12

Um, there's no coming back from here. Yes, I couldn't stop oh me too.

Speaker 2 25:16

I could have read it in like two days.

Speaker 1 25:17

Exactly.

Speaker 2 25:18

Exactly.

Speaker 1 25:19

So, so good. And then I started the next, or the one right before it, which is um, I don't know, oh god, I always it's a long title and I always mess it up, but I'll put it in the show notes. It sure, writing is just. You can't stop, right. I?

Speaker 2 25:32

love. I think she's just, she's hilarious. I just love her.

Speaker 1 25:36

She's such a delightful person. I just I, I'm like, can we go on vacation together? Um, so she was talking a lot about like union and what. Yeah, she kind of echoed what you just said, at least when it came to lake union, because they've done her last two and they're doing, I believe her, her next one. That's coming out the next, whenever. That is not soon enough for me, um, but she was talking about that, how it's such a team effort, and I think this is one area where the landscape of publishing is starting to shift, because, not to dismiss big five at all, but there are a lot of smaller, traditional houses that are popping up where there is a lot Greater partnership. And then, even in the self publishing realm, there's this feeling so often that I'm alone. Yeah, but you're, you're, you're not, you can be if you want to be. But I always encourage folks to hire a cover designer, hire a proofreader, hire an editor. Um, there are people you can work with now that when I got started 19 years ago, that wasn't available.

Speaker 1 26:42

Mm-hmm hire someone who had worked at a big house, who was Intimately familiar with the publishing process. So daytime drama was touchpoint and designer you was hamilton street press, and I'm admittedly not familiar with either of those. Are they both? Are they hybrid? Are they traditional? What?

Speaker 2 26:59

So the first book came out, actually with crook and cat books, okay, and they, um, so that came out in 2018. Okay, and they are small publisher and they and so and the reason why I didn't stick with them is because they ended up switching focus. So they kind of got out of like the women's fiction book club fiction game and they switched over to thriller and crime Fiction and stuff like that and I think they're doing really well and they they changed their name too.

Speaker 1 27:29

Um, but they had Hamilton street press.

Speaker 2 27:31

No, that's me. So I actually got. So I got my rights back and I just published it under my own imprint. So Hamilton street press that's. Uh, Hamilton street is. Is is me.

Speaker 1 27:46

I love it. Okay, okay, so you did that one and then, what did you like about doing it yourself versus what? Now that you know About the alternatives, yeah, what are your, I don't know, what are your feelings about? Okay, this is a nice to have, this is a must have, this is a don't type thing with the different paradigms, yeah, so what was?

Speaker 2 28:10

great is they? Let me keep that cover, like just for free. They just gave it to me. They're like good luck and um. So I got to basically Take that book and publish it under my own imprint Without anybody really noticing that anything was different, which is kind of what I wanted. I was like you know and that, and that part was was great. It was really learning. You know, jane Friedman, love Jane me too, excuse me. She has a and I think you do this too. She had like a guide on how to Self-publish yeah, and of course.

Speaker 2 28:51

Oh sorry, I have a course right, you have a course on it, and so I think, but in 2020, early 2020, god yeah, january 2020, that's what I was doing was Learning all I could about how to publish this book, and actually one thing that I really wanted that that publisher didn't do was to Get away from Amazon only Distribution, so I wanted it to be able to, you know, be ordered by my local bookstore if they wanted to, or wherever, and so I had a wide distribution. I was able to format the book on my own and basically have it look Identical to the original product, which is what I wanted, but I ended up getting, like all of my I have all these extra ISBN numbers.

Speaker 2 29:51

Yes, but um, but anyway, but that's fine. I just I I read what the recommendations were if you wanted to have ultimate control over that book, and I did, and that book still makes money. I'm like I'm kind of amazed, you know. It's like, oh wow, like I make more money off of that book than I did off of my second book. You know, because I own it, you know it's mine exact right. So that was really nice.

Speaker 1 30:20

Did you see the sales uptick in that first book when the second book came out, or, yeah, did it become kind of a backlist?

Speaker 2 30:28

Yeah, it did and it's. You know, it should be interesting to see what happens with those two books when the third book comes out. Right, but I was. Ultimately, I decided that I like working with a publisher, I like being able to work with an editor who, you know, likes my book, you know all that stuff and I really, like, you know, after my second book came out and that also came out with a small press, okay, I ended up getting an agent for the third book and that's been a game changer, because Now I'm really not alone. You know, my agent is, you know, comes to all of the important meetings and she is part of every single decision and that is so nice. I don't want to be negotiating contracts by myself and no right.

Speaker 2 31:17

So that's been, that's been wonderful, and she was the one who got the deal for Lake Union.

Speaker 1 31:24

So what sort of facilitated your decision to go from Touchpoint? Was that an author financed? No no, okay, they're also small, traditional they're just small, traditional Okay from them to get an agent.

Speaker 2 31:41

So okay, so this is funny. So I tried to get an agent with the first two books and it no go like pass, pass, pass, and my stories are too small, yada, yada, yada. There's not, they're not a big concept books. And I had queried Tina, or I think, the second book, maybe the first book to cheat. She rejected me but she kept saying, oh, but your next book, like, just, you know, just please let me know and submit, yada, yada, yada. So anyway, so I submitted the third book to her and then I got an offer from another agent.

Speaker 2 32:22

And so then you do the thing where you send out to all the people who have your book. And Tina got right back to me and she was like, let me just read it. And she got back to me like within a day or two and was like, let's talk on the phone. And then and I was so excited because I had already queried her she already knew my writing, you know, and I just and I knew that I really liked her approach, so and I'm not scared of Small presses, you know so I didn't need somebody who was like, oh, you know, big five or nothing, you know, I'm like, oh, that's not really, that's not necessarily me. You know, I'm not scared of smaller presses. I just want to. I just want some help. You know all comes down to it. I just want a little bit of help from somebody who knows the business a lot better than me, and somebody who's who's nice, and then I get along with and and also be nice and also be nicely.

Speaker 1 33:20

Yeah, just don't be a really small requirements, yeah.

Speaker 2 33:25

Agents are actually really nice.

Publishing Industry Challenges and Release Delays

Speaker 1 33:26

I know was the one, so I know, but it's just funny that we're at this point in time where that's like one of our main Stipulations.

Speaker 2 33:34

Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. Yeah, don't be a jerk.

Speaker 1 33:37

It's in the top three of what you want, or what I want or would want if I were to work with an agent, maybe even above and beyond some other things, yeah.

Speaker 2 33:47

I don't even want to be a jerk like on my behalf. It's like nope right, Exactly. I really don't want that for point of reference.

Speaker 1 33:59

How long did it take to sell it to Lake Union once oh?

Speaker 2 34:04

So that's it. Yeah, it took, I think, 10, 9, 10 months really. So, yeah, we are on submission. Yeah, it went, went out like right around Thanksgiving of 2020 okay, and so we're like well, we probably won't hear from anyone until, you know, january at the very earliest. So anyway, so I wasn't, I wasn't too worried, but I know it's like being on submission is. Is you know it's a nail biter.

Speaker 1 34:36

So you're on submission in 2020, but the book is coming out in January of 2024.

Speaker 2 34:42

Yes, it was supposed to come out last October, okay, but it got pushed. Okay, yeah. So so we signed the contract in September of 2021. Wait, what year? What? What am I talking about?

Speaker 1 34:55

Well, yeah, cuz daytime drama.

Speaker 2 34:56

No, no, we sign one, right. Sorry, we signed, so I'm a year off because, because that's how I roll these days.

Speaker 1 35:06

I mean, I don't know what day it is, it's fine.

Speaker 2 35:09

Okay, november of 2021 is when we went on submission. Okay, september of 2022 is when we signed the contract. Okay, and it was supposed to come out last October 2023, like a year later. So it was actually relatively fast.

Speaker 1 35:27

Yeah, I was going to say first when we were thinking 2020 to 2024, I'm like we just lost everyone who's considering traditional.

Speaker 2 35:35

Sorry guys, sorry, it's perimonopause, that's what it is. That's like half the rest of my life. At this point I'm not getting any younger.

Speaker 1 35:43

But no, that makes a ton of sense. That part now what you've explained, makes perfect sense. Okay, why did it get pushed? Can you share that?

Speaker 2 35:51

It got pushed, I think it was. It wasn't a big deal. A lot of books actually got pushed. I think there was just some stuff, some delays with cover and all that stuff, and I think they just didn't have enough people at the time. So it was just, things were a little bit slower running a little bit slower than they wanted to last spring.

Speaker 1 36:10

Kind of like at Target there are 20 checkout lines but only three people actually working the checkout lines.

Speaker 2 36:16

Yes, so there's a bottleneck. Yeah, there's a bottleneck, that's exactly it.

Speaker 1 36:21

I mean, it really is, you know, like a but that's something a lot of people don't realize is that, first of all, your editor can change mid. It's not frequent that it happens, but it can happen if your editor leaves the imprint.

Speaker 2 36:35

I don't think it's. I don't think it's that it is common. I think it is pretty common because publishing industry is really hard. I don't think editors make enough money and they can kind of bounce from, you know, position to position, imprint to imprint, or they can leave it all together and go do agenting or Right? So many of them are writers themselves and they need a break and Well, especially if you have a multi-book deal.

Speaker 1 37:02

You know, your editor can change between books, and I do know of people whose editors have changed midway through the book and it's been challenging because the editor who bought the book you know his acquisitions editor like loved the book, but then the person who acquired it by default for taking over for them, maybe it didn't love it quite as much or just had a different personality, and so there was this kind of new rapport that had to be built, I know, but you're absolutely right. I recently saw they released a list of salaries and they have gone up for the big five, for all the positions, but still, I mean, when you consider that some of those editors live in New York City and the disparity between men and women for the same position, this is a whole other conversation that we don't have to go down at the rabbit hole, but it is the same, but I couldn't believe how low the salaries were for senior editors.

Speaker 2 37:59

Yeah, I know, and they're. And yeah, like you said, they're living in the most expensive place in the country.

Speaker 1 38:06

I mean it was under six figures.

Speaker 2 38:08

Yeah, so I don't know how you do it.

Speaker 1 38:10

I don't know how you do that in, I don't. But anyway, total other.

Speaker 2 38:15

I mean, I don't understand why it's not, why it's not like all virtual, like, why they can't just work remotely you know in Montana, or something I edit very well for my couch Right In. Montana. I mean, why not? I don't understand.

Speaker 1 38:30

I agree completely.

Navigate Feedback, Make Peace With Changes

Speaker 2 38:31

This is why I need an agent and I need help, because I actually don't really understand why you have to be in New York City or, if you're, you know at Amazon, why you have to live in Seattle or something.

Speaker 1 38:42

Well, I don't understand any of that, and I mean, now it's gotten to where so many people are doing it remotely. I think it just depends on the company and whether or not the person leading from the top says everyone needs to be in this seven-cadrillion-dollar-a-year office suite that we are spending money on instead of, you know, paying people higher salaries or whatever it is. I don't know all the nuances of it, but changing editors is something that happens. But also, dates do get pushed.

Speaker 2 39:11

Yeah, yeah, for lots of reasons, for lots of and it's usually pretty mundane reasons, sure, but I was really kind of already looking forward to October release and amping up for that, and then, when they said it was going to be January, I said, oh, you know like, then we got pushed by three months, not a year.

Speaker 1 39:34

And three months, no three months yeah.

Speaker 2 39:36

Three months. So it's like, and now I can see actually there's lots of advantages of coming out in January. So I'm not you know there's advantages and disadvantages, whichever. You know, whatever time you come out, but I feel like January actually is a pretty nice time to come out, I agree.

Speaker 1 39:55

And I'll tell you why. For whatever it's worth. Number one, your copyright is now 2024, not 2023, which I feel like if you're going to be in the last quarter of the year and you want to push it. I'm not saying it's bad to come out in October or November, but for some reason people look at the age of books and they see it as being brand new. Or if somebody comes out second week in December and they've got the previous year, it looks to people like it's a year old and it only has six reviews and that looks odd. But the other thing is people will often say to me when you know they're launching their book or I'm launching their book through my. I have a small hybrid press that really is intended to just help my own authors. I don't accept unsolicited submissions and all that.

Speaker 1 40:41

It just kind of came to be because people said you know, I know you, I trust you, you're nice and so can you do it. But at any rate they often want to come out right before Christmas because they say it's a great Christmas gift and I'm like right with the other eight billion products that people are. It's so hard to get seen for a holiday thing.

Speaker 2 41:05

Yeah, it's definitely a crowded time. You know, even though this is my third book this first, my first two are with small publishers.

Speaker 1 41:14

No one knows me from Adam, so it's like you know as far as, oh, thank you, thank you, but yeah, but they, you know, it's just it's hard to you know they and by the way, no one knows me from Adam, so the fact that now I know you, that's not going to be terribly helpful.

Speaker 2 41:34

Anyway, I'm going to take it. I don't care, elizabeth, I'm going to take it. Yeah, and it is a crowded time and it is a nice time to come out. You know the people are are talking about books, talking about books a lot right now, but it is. There is something to be said about coming out at a time that's not as crowded.

Speaker 2 41:55

People hopefully will have their you know bookstore gift certificates, you know, and maybe they can use it on a brand new book that comes out in January, and they'll see. But, um, yeah, so I'm just, I try and see the positive and wherever I land, plus, I had no control over this anyway. So it is what it is Exactly.

Speaker 1 42:17

You kind of have to just go with this trust that, even though it doesn't make sense, it will make sense. But I don't. I, my personality, is one whereby I'm always or often I'm always like this doesn't, this isn't how it was supposed to be Right. So what was your? Going back to the the light of the fire, what was the challenge that you gave yourself for this one? Oh, this one. What did you want to explore?

Speaker 2 42:46

This one, I really wanted to, uh, write something that had a little bit of a mystery element to it. Um, just a hint, you know, not, it was still. I still wanted it to feel like a book that would come from me, that had my voice, um, with, you know, characters that I could, you know, definitely find relatable. Um, but I wanted a little bit of a mystery in there. I just wanted to try it and, um, you know, we'll see, I'm doing it again in another project. Um, this time the mystery is a little bit more front and center. Um, but I wanted just a hint of a mystery in this one and, and it was fun, it was actually really fun to kind of learn, learn about that.

Speaker 1 43:31

Well, I wanted to ask, and I don't well, I don't know if it would be bad to give it this away but the prologue, the preface, yeah. So there's such a debate about prologues and preface all these things right Like do?

Speaker 1 43:43

do they work, do they not work? And some agents really like them and some agents really don't like them, and I've even heard that some agents will not even submit a book if it does have one, or the whole thing. So I I love talking to people who end up having them and where they work really well. Um, emma Gray's book, the last love note, had a prologue that I said I'm just going to read the prologue. I wasn't finished with another book, but I just want to get a sense. Yeah, I, I remember DMing her at like 1130. She's in Australia, but at like 1130 PM and saying it is well past my bedtime and I can't stop. I'm burning your prologue. Same thing, oh, so good.

Speaker 2 44:29

And it's so brief, but.

Speaker 1 44:31

I read it and I was like oh my God. So my question is how did that come? Was that the first thing, or was that a layer, a later layer?

Speaker 2 44:43

A later, a much later layer.

Speaker 2 44:46

So my, so this, this book is set. It is about friendship between two women. They're coming back together after 20 years and it's definitely a friendship story. However, it's also soccer is part of it is it's set in a soccer world. And my acquisitions editor at Lake Union was like, well, we've got to make sure that we push the friendship aspect of it. And I was like, well, yeah, right, it's a, it's a book about friendship. And she was like, well, you know, we need to change the title. The original title was offside. She was like that's going to put people off. They're going to think this is a book about soccer only. And I was like, okay, I really like that title. But okay, and so we came up with another title, and, and, and my first chapter was about soccer. It was set in the middle of a game, so it was, and that one got chopped. I chopped it out.

Speaker 1 45:47

All together.

Speaker 2 45:48

All together. It was. You got to see how Beth got hurt and it was in that game and I went back and forth, back and forth with that chapter. My book coach was like I don't know, I like it, like you know the game and stuff, and it really kind of resonates and we're getting to know Beth in this way, but it might put off a lot of your readers. So anyway, we get to uh, lake Union is like we like it, but we got to get rid of that chapter and I think you need a prologue.

Speaker 1 46:23

I wish like I don't do these videos yet, or I don't do these podcasts yet video, but sometimes I wish I did. And this is one of those times because if people, if people listening, could see the smile you got on your face from the moment you said. So my acquisitions editor and I'm trying to decide if there's like a something in there that you're like do I say this?

Challenges of Writing Fiction and Memoir

Speaker 2 46:48

But that's the thing Again, you're not. You don't write a book in a vacuum. I know all of this back and forth and stuff and, yes, like and I think the book is so much better actually because of that prologue, we don't need to see the soccer game. We don't need to see that soccer game. We get to know what the after effects are. We get to know, we're going to get to know Beth, no matter what, and yes, soccer does mean a lot to her, you know. But a lot of other things mean a lot to her too Relationship with her dad or relationship with Ali, you know. And so I think, ultimately, that was a great choice. But it was really really nice to have that, that feedback, because my instincts were to keep that in, were to keep that soccer in and not do the not do the beginning like that, not have a prologue.

Speaker 1 47:43

So how do you? What's your process if you have one for kind of making peace with, like when someone gives you notes or feedback, do you? My tendency is to immediately go no, I don't want, no, I don't want to do that, right. So what is your process for letting it, sort of letting the dust settle and then making a decision?

Speaker 2 48:05

Yeah, it's definitely taking time to let it sink in. I really want to think about it before, before I do anything, because otherwise I'm just kind of reacting to it and it could be and usually when I react like that it's I'm going to make a bad decision, you know. So I just need to let it sink in, let it marinate a little bit, and then decide how to go forward. And it could be that it could be that I come up with a different idea, you know, like well, okay, let's take this out, but what about this instead? You know, and so having that kind of dialogue back and forth, so it feels, feels good and right for the story, for me, but also kind of honors that this is a book that's meant for an audience to enjoy and appreciate, you know, to get something out of that, and it's it's, you know, the further I get into publishing, I understand that it really is all about the reader.

Speaker 2 49:12

It's actually not, you know, the further away it gets from me, it means it's not about me. And eventually, when this book launches into the world on the 23rd of January, it's really not going to be about me. It's going to be about how the readers take it and what they learn from it. And actually I kind of love that, because readers will read something in a way that I didn't necessarily understand or I didn't get, or it's like oh, I totally see why you see it that way. I didn't think I meant that, but I think I did. You know, and that kind of thing is so cool, or they receive it based on where they are.

Speaker 1 49:49

Yes, yes, Right which, of course, can be challenging because, as the writer, like we have no control over whether someone is. I'm often extremely surprised, not only by the lines that people love in my books, but by the lines that I communicate to an author that I loved in their book, and they're like oh, that just came out one Wednesday, like that. I wasn't even trying, and so it's so interesting how.

Speaker 2 50:19

I think it's really fun parts. Yeah, I think it's so exciting.

Speaker 1 50:23

But that's the. In my experience, that's one of the biggest challenges between fiction and memoir, because they have to be. This is just my opinion, but memoir, in order for it to be compelling, needs to be written like fiction. Yeah, so it's like creative nonfiction, but it's not right, because it's a full story, not just based on a piece of the story, which is more or less what creative fiction is or creative nonfiction. But what's interesting is that memoir is it's all you, it's all your story, and so it can be very it can really feel like in a front when someone suggests that piece. Isn't it going to be interesting to readers? Because what you, what, what the author oftentimes hears, is my, I'm not interesting, right, right, my story isn't valuable or worthy, and so so how do you frame that?

Speaker 2 51:19

So as because I was a book coach for memoirists too, how did you frame that kind of feedback?

Speaker 1 51:26

Like, how do I gently, very gently, I mean, I have been really. I consider it such a blessing. I've worked with a number of authors who are writing about really tough stuff yeah, domestic violence, addiction, suicide, I mean a lot of and so it's so. I mean I don't even know how to well express that. It's so important for me to have, like, have my heart in it with them, because I don't understand what they've gone through from personal experience at all. I have to remove that. I don't even know that I have it.

Speaker 1 52:12

But I think a lot of editors don't do this or coaches don't do this, where you have to remove that critical side, where you say in a harsh way, nobody cares about that, but essentially that is what you're saying. Yeah, it's just, it has to be delivered in a way where it's like okay, let's look at the whole of the story. One thing I do is I ask the author to tell me why that piece is valuable, because in the end, the way I'm reading it, it doesn't feel aligned. But if they can explain it to me, sometimes when I hear their words, I can figure out how to restructure it so that we don't have to pull it entirely. You know, we might shorten it, we might rephrase it, we might move it, because it might be a point that they're trying to make. They're just trying to make it from sort of this myopic lens, yeah, and it's very personal and emotional, and you can't see the forest for the trees.

Speaker 2 53:13

Yeah, oh, totally Right, totally. It's so hard, like you don't want to kill their spirit, you know, oh, but at the same time they're writing a story again. It comes back to a writing a story for an audience, you know, and we want them to get something out of it.

Speaker 1 53:32

So often. I'll just simply ask tell me, and I'll be very clear, I'm not challenging you, I'm asking you Tell me why this matters, yeah, yeah, and sometimes they just need one person to hear them and then, once they've explained to me why it matters, they'll go away and they'll come back and go. You know what? I don't think I need to have this in there.

Speaker 2 53:53

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Tell me why this matters and it's not a challenge. I love that.

Speaker 1 53:59

Yeah, definitely not. I think I might steal that. Go ahead. It's definitely not, and that's what I meant by like I have to have, I have to care, I can't be, because I'm not saying defend this. No, I'm saying help me understand. Yeah, help me understand.

Speaker 1 54:15

I'm the idiot here, right, because those are really complex emotions and even with fiction, you know in writing this first thing that I'm, I mean he'll ever see the light of day, who knows. But you know, neely has kind of said that to me with different words, but you know why does this matter? And then do you find that when you write fiction, you there's a you're writing from like something of you. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 54:43

Yeah, of course. Yeah, I think it cannot be. I don't either, I don't either.

Speaker 1 54:49

But sometimes people will say like no, it's holy, like everything is made up and I'm just like okay.

Speaker 2 54:56

Yeah, I mean most of it's made up but a lot of it is. You know I'll have people say like, oh, is this character you and it's like? I mean a little bit, or you know, or I. I do think that way about what that one small thing or it might be. These characters are, you know, kind of a combination of some people that I know or acquaintances that I run into or people that I see on the bus. You know it comes from me, but it's not, you know, it's definitely not. I think about like Taylor Jenkins read and her books and how she, she. I heard her talk about the latest books. You know the, the, the like, seven seven husbands and.

Speaker 2 55:46

Daisy Jones and these, you know, these books that are set, these, these big books that are set kind of in the Hollywood area, and she was saying that she really wanted to write books that were definitely not her. Like she wanted to get as far away from her as possible. You know, right, about a woman who's like great at tennis, a tennis pro. You know, like how cool is that. And I and I think about that and I think, yes, I would like you know, I would like to be able to do that. Maybe that'll be my next challenge is get a character who is as far away from my kind of thinking as possible. But it's just, it's really hard to do that, you know, it's really hard.

Speaker 2 56:28

Like my husband one time was like you should read a book about psychopaths. It was like the mind of the psychopath or something like that, just so that he's like, just so you can understand that there are people who think wildly different from you. But I don't want to write about a psychopath, right, right, I don't want to bring that into the right Exactly.

Speaker 2 56:57

But it was good advice. Like you know, you have to remember that not everyone's logic is going to be the same as your own, you know, and so I try and keep that in mind when I'm writing my characters. They make decisions. They make a lot of decisions that I would never make in my own life.

The Reading Habits and Book Recommendations

Speaker 1 57:15

Well, now you've intrigued me, Like I got to get through this book before everyone's like just get through this book because I, you know, I've got a list. I actually have a list of like 13 book titles.

Speaker 1 57:25

Oh, that doesn't surprise me that you know, I and I'm like oh, but some of them are fiction, some of them aren't, but so? But I like that idea that the challenge, I think, is there's no relatable Like. If I don't know why I thought this. Did you say something about skiing, did I? I don't know, I don't think you did, but for some reason I thought furthest thing from me is a professional skier.

Speaker 2 57:49

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 57:50

But then I'm like well, how do I write that? Then I have to go. Can I write that off? If I have to go take ski lessons to write a book, is that? Does that make it a write offable expense? Like sure you know why not. So now do I have to go to the Swiss Alps and hire a ski instructor? Is that the deal? I like that? That's really interesting and intriguing though, because in fact I noticed that when someone gives me and by someone I mean nearly a note on my character that I feel defensive about, it's an immediate clue that I've I've projected part of myself onto that character in that scene or in that scene or in that because, otherwise I don't care.

Speaker 1 58:34

Right, like if she says this makes no sense, I go. Okay, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 58:39

No, I think it's. I mean, I mean that now we're getting into like what, where characters, do we have any Any business writing, Right, you know?

Speaker 2 58:51

I'm not you know, I'm not a professional soccer player, but I played soccer and I was a soccer mom, you know. So, like I know what I know what that feels like. Or I'm not a professional, I'm not a soap opera actress, but I dabbled in theater, you know like. So I and I lived in LA. My husband was working as part of the entertainment industry, so I knew a little bit about it, but that's definitely not me and that character was like very far away from me. She made a lot of decisions that I, that I wouldn't have made, but I the challenge was making them believable.

Speaker 1 59:31

Believeable.

Speaker 2 59:32

Anyway, you know.

Speaker 1 59:34

Yeah, and that's fun.

Speaker 2 59:36

It's fun when, when you can do that. You know that's really fun when you can pull that off.

Speaker 1 59:41

I agree. Now what I'm realizing is that when I read other novels I don't know this is a new question for me, I think, with people who write fiction is you know what? What were you trying? What was your challenge to yourself in writing this book? And and so for your next one, when you, when you come back to talk about the next book, and you say, yeah, it was, it was my challenge to write about a, about a rodeo. Well, yeah, someone who owns a rodeo.

Speaker 2 1:00:10

Yeah, a rodeo clown. What's it like to be a rodeo clown? I really don't want to know.

Speaker 1 1:00:19

That could go horror, it could go comedy yeah.

Speaker 2 1:00:21

How many?

Speaker 1 1:00:22

different directions. They could go in all of those directions. Oh my God, I truly could talk to you all day. I have one more question, because I'm looking at that table behind you that is almost there are books almost falling off of it. I know the next question is what are you reading right now?

Speaker 2 1:00:38

So okay, I, I am finally reading the, the secret history. Have you? It's the Donna Donna Tartt's first book. I have no idea she wrote the goldfinch, oh right, so the secret history is a book that I have tried and then put down, like I try it and I put down, and it's also like almost 600 books, Almost 600 pages. So I was like I don't have time for this and I just couldn't get into it. And, holy moly, I started it, like a few days ago, and I'm like ripping through it, like I cannot put it down. It's just, for some reason, it's just sticking with me this time, which is another lesson in that, you know, even there are books but you know, maybe don't finish or whatever, or usually it's. I usually finish books that I start, but it's like if I start it and after the first chapter or something, I'm like I'm not really feeling it. I'll put it down. But which is what I did with this one so many times and for some reason I am just absolutely loving it.

Speaker 1 1:01:46

It's not such a bizarre thing and it's something that I I talk about that often Like there's no longer this push of you. Have three weeks to make your book sell well.

Speaker 1 1:01:57

So, somebody could buy your book and then come back to it a year later and I mean, with all the luck in the world, they're a very influential tick tocker and they just post about it 18 months after the books released and now it shoots up and everyone you know wants it in their house. But the other thing you just said I'm going to say really quickly, that was you know, I read something about I think I don't think it was Jane Friedman, but it might have been either Jane Friedman or Joanna Penn talking about author. Was it author brand? It was basically the notion that people don't remember the author's name. They remember the book title. When you said Donna Tartt, nothing clicked for me.

Speaker 2 1:02:36

But when you said Goldfinch, I was like oh yeah yeah, that's just another interesting aspect, I think, of the industry, I think that's interesting too, but she's only come out, I think, with three books, like she puts out like a book a decade or something. The secret history came out in the early 90s.

Speaker 1 1:02:57

And look at it. So it's been like 20 some years and now you're tearing through it.

Speaker 2 1:03:01

Oh, I know I am tearing through it.

Speaker 1 1:03:02

And now I'm going to have to get it, because you said it.

Speaker 2 1:03:05

And so it's so good, I mean. But of course, like I also just finished Ann Garvin's book. You know, that book I tore through. I love a good, quick, funny read and I mean she's got, she's absolutely got my number. But yeah, that book I just finished. I just finished Pineapple Street. That was really good, that's on my list too. Oh my God, it was so good, tom Lake.

Speaker 1 1:03:32

Oh my gosh, my mom just gave me Tom Lake for my birthday.

Speaker 2 1:03:35

Oh my God, it's so good.

Speaker 1 1:03:36

It's getting unmanageable.

Speaker 2 1:03:38

Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 1:03:39

Somebody mentioned this. The other day on Instagram or somewhere, I did a post and I said I'm looking for the best the best air quote books of 2023 that aren't on the New York Times bestseller list.

Speaker 2 1:03:51

Give me books that you absolutely loved.

Speaker 1 1:03:53

Now you've given me several that weren't and they don't have to have been published in 2023. Like, that's the other thing about it is just books that you know haven't. And one of them somebody said and I've got it, I know it's out on one of my stacks out there my last innocent year. Oh, who wrote that? Have you read that one? Daisy Floren.

Speaker 2 1:04:11

Okay, I'm writing it down.

Speaker 1 1:04:13

I think it was Laura, laura Belgrade and her book Tough Titties. Have you read Tough Titties? Oh, I have it.

Speaker 2 1:04:21

I haven't read it yet, but, oh my God, I know it's fabulous.

Speaker 1 1:04:27

So it's just there's like I asked for recommendations and then I think, what am I doing?

Speaker 2 1:04:33

I know, I know, yeah, you can see all those books back there. In fact, the ones that are stacked are ones that I need to get through.

Speaker 1 1:04:43

That's what I'm looking at. Is the stacks. I feel so validated right now because I mean, if you hear a loud thud at any point while we're on this, it's the bookshelf collapsing.

Speaker 2 1:04:54

Uh-huh, it's a serious problem. Yeah, I mean, this is just like-. And then people say people don't read anymore. God, no, I, yeah, I do read. I just feel like I wish I could read faster, sometimes, me too, you know, it's just Me too, and then I love savoring it, though. I like that too, but at the same time there's just so much I want to read. I'm like, oh, I really want to get through that. I really want to be a part of the conversation, like I don't want to be left out, I know.

Speaker 1 1:05:27

Like Zibi. You know who Zibi Owens is. Oh yeah, of course. Okay, so Zibi does a podcast every day of the week. Oh, I know At least five days a week and I'm like ha, she has four children. How are you reading? And she's admitted she's a quicker reader.

Speaker 2 1:05:41

You know she's she's a really fast reader. What? She explained it. God, how she does it. Did she? Did you read what she? She said? How she does it? No, she does. It's like a. It's an interesting way of kind of skimming, Like she doesn't necessarily read every single word. Okay, you know, she might kind of skim or she'll read the first sentence of each paragraph and then if it seems like it's going to be like a big long description, she'll kind of move on so she can get through like a book in an afternoon.

Speaker 1 1:06:10

Okay, and I mean, if I were doing a podcast every day, I think that's what you have to do, you know because but she has like 20 full-time jobs, like I also.

Speaker 2 1:06:20

I don't get it. I I mean hats off to her, but she has more energy than anyone I've ever seen.

Speaker 1 1:06:29

Everyone I talked to on this podcast who knows Zibi. We all say the exact same thing. We're like we don't understand. And then that morning, inevitably like this morning, she made a post that there's a big event happening in New York City in January with like 15 authors. And the thing I love about Zibi is it's not just her authors.

Speaker 1 1:06:49

I mean she's just a celebrant of authors across the board. Doesn't matter who you're published with, but all these people are showing up and you know she's. It's a ticketed event, but I'm thinking what it's so much.

Speaker 2 1:07:01

Oh no, I know, I know I absolutely get you Like the thought. Like my husband and I we do like a. It's such a low key thing but it's. But every year we try and do a, an Oscar party and we invite, like our neighbors and stuff, but it is a source of stress, like the months leading up to it. We're like I don't know how much we're going to spend this time. What are we going to serve? Are we going to make people dress up? I mean it is decorations. Oh my God, we have to get decorations. I mean it is like we don't really fight or anything like that, but we'll fight about that.

Speaker 1 1:07:38

I'm just trying to play on the charcuterie board for Christmas morning, okay.

Speaker 2 1:07:42

You like that is my stress right now. Oh, I hear you. Yeah, I can hear you. I think Zibi's amazing.

Speaker 1 1:07:49

I don't understand her. I want to borrow. If she could bottle and sell a little bit of this, I would pay top dollar. Yeah, thank you so much. Oh, thank you Time and your wisdom.

Speaker 2 1:08:03

I cannot wait for the book to come out.

Speaker 1 1:08:04

I'll link everything in the show notes, and I just so appreciate you.

Speaker 2 1:08:08

Thank you, I appreciate you too.

Speaker 1 1:08:10

Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone you know has a great story or message but isn't sure what to do next. Also, remember to check out, publish a profitable bookcom for book writing resources and tips and to see all the ways we can work together to get your book out into the world. Again, thanks so much for listening and I'll talk with you again soon.