Ep 64: Novel Writing with Ann Garvin

Ann Garvin writes books for "women to do too much in a world that asks too much." Enough said; take all my money already!

She published her first book in her late forties, even though one of her professors/mentors used to say to her on a regular basis, “You’re the worst writer I’ve ever met.” (He wasn’t being funny.)

During this episode of the Write the Damn Book Already podcast, Ann and I had so much fun discussing the novel-writing journey, from writing to publishing to marketing (and a whole lot in between!).

INTERVIEW HIGHLIGHTS

• Ann's journey from being a nurse (with a PhD) to being a full-time writer and how she thinks about her future in this space. 
• A fascinating look into what’s moving the levers in the publishing space right now. It’s extremely eye-opening, and allows YOU, as the author, to make much more well-informed decisions when it comes to publishing and marketing.
• Going from 102 to 21K reviews (and whether she reads those reviews!)
• How her process has evolved when it comes to working with her editor to remain true to the story she wants to tell
• How she avoids the “lowest hangi

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Transcript

Elizabeth: If I shared all the outtakes from this episode, we'd be here for days. But I wish I could, because it's sometimes not the best part of the interview, but It's a really close second. Welcome to this next episode of write the damn book already I went down the rabbit hole in this one.

Maybe a week and a half ago I started reading Garvin's latest book. There's no coming back from this And I quickly realized there was no coming back from that because I had the thought I cannot write a book or I cannot write a novel. This woman is just too good. I can't do this.

So I made a reel about it and I tagged her and she was so gracious as to respond. I, of course, jumped right on that opportunity and said, will you please come on this podcast and talk about your writing process, your experience? she agreed. I've been skipping around my house ever since. 

she's like the friend I didn't know I have to have. [00:01:00] she lives all the way in New York. I have never wanted to live in New York city, but lately I feel there are too many people who I'm starting to completely love who live in New York city. maybe it's time for not a move, but just a trip.

I promise. If you are an aspiring author, if you have written one book or two books and you're working on the next book, this episode is for you. Take all your preconceived notions and your assumptions about what it's like to be a full time writer and just set them to the side. And then come back with curiosity to hear Ann's perspective on this whole glorious adventure. When you write your first book at 48 or 49 years old, and it's today has 102 reviews on Amazon, and then you release your fifth book and it has over 15, 000 reviews. the book just prior. Titled, I Thought You Said This Would Work has 21,000 reviews.

You start to make some assumptions. You make some good assumptions. You make some scary assumptions. I love that I was able to voice all of mine to Ann and she was able to correct me. I also wish that this had been a video interview because the number of technological and other challenges we experienced with phones ringing and iPads ringing and not knowing how to turn anything off, was just really validating.

Let's just say it was very validating to know that I am not the only person who can't figure out why the update on my apple watch makes it impossible to turn the ringer off because I do not know where that function has gone. As per usual, I have linked all of Ann's everything in the show notes so that you can follow her, grab all of her books, and you can go down the rabbit hole just as I did into what an absolutely incredible, delightful woman she is.

And now I'm going to turn you over to the interview because I'm already in chapter 2 of I Thought You Said This Would Work, and I need to know what happens. Here's Ann.

***

So here's what has happened. I saw a post a while ago I've done such a deep dive and I don't normally do this, but I started down the rabbit hole and then I couldn't stop. I was like, what is happening? when there's no coming back from this came out, it was everywhere, right? Everywhere I'm looking, I was like, I've got to get my hands on that and then life happened as it does and I kept forgetting and then a week ago, maybe somebody posted. I said, it's happening now. It's happening now. Yeah. So I got it. And then I made the real about how mad I was at you, so good.

It was so amazing. I got I was like, I love her. I hate her. I don't know how to feel about any of this. And then the best part was your response to the real because you were like, I have to take seven medications in order to. 

Okay, let's start at the top. There's no coming back from this. Here's my huge realization about fiction writing. As I'm reading this, I'm a big nonfiction reader and memoir reader.

And in the last, 18 to 24 months, I've gotten back into fiction. So I normally don't read books, On ebook. I'm not opposed to ebook. I just like the feel of my books. I also cannot read it on anything smaller than an iPad because I'm 107 years old and even with magnified readers and a magnifying glass.

I can't see anything, but I downloaded. There's no coming back from this onto the ebook because I had to have it immediately patience is not my friend. And here's what I noticed while reading it. You know how in an e book, they underline the most [00:05:00] highlighted pieces of a book? Yeah.

Okay, so you don't get that in a physical book. You don't know what people are highlighting. That's true. And I had this moment, I was like, oh my god. This is great. I understand why people highlight things in nonfiction because they want to remember go do step one, get out of bed, right?

But here's this thing, and I'm not going to spoil anything. I just have this open right here There's this line, whatever all else comes and goes, memories, parents, houses, children. The truth I'm left with is this, I am mine. What if that was enough? And it's one of the most highlighted.

Passages. Oh, yeah. 

Ann: Because I try not to look too much at stuff because readers can be so mean the minute you start looking, then you start going, Oh, maybe I should look over there. And then somebody writes, Ann Garvin, trash. so I try not to look too much at it I'm always writing another book.

if I'm always writing another book and somebody calls [00:06:00] me trash, then it's like, Throws me off a little 

Elizabeth: But that is so remarkable to me, because this was your fifth book, right? Five? Number five? Yeah. Okay, so here's something in my deep dive that I discovered. Your first book, which was on Maggie's Watch, right?

In 2010? Yeah. that has 102 reviews right now on Amazon. Yeah. I know you know, to some degree, how many reviews There's No Coming Back From This has, right? 

Yeah, a lot more. Yeah, it's just for the listeners, it's like 22, 000. Yeah, it is. It's a lot. 

Ann: first question is do you read them?

I thought you said this would work as 22 000 and there's no coming back from this has 14 now But it's only okay. I may have 

Elizabeth: reversed them. 

Ann: I'm 

Elizabeth: yeah, you're right I thought you said this was work has 22 and there's no coming back from this has 15 are we really gonna fight over this thing?

Elizabeth: one question I had for you was, do you read them? And I think I'm gleaning the answer, but the second [00:07:00] question I have is do you still have any level of imposter syndrome or fear or doubt or anything when you have 22, right?

Ann: Because that's what everyone would assume is, oh, she's good now. Come here! I think you have a note in your thing that says, Put your pets someplace 

Elizabeth: Here's the thing. I don't. And the reason I don't is because it would be so hypocritical because my dog barks at the mere thought that the wind might blow.

Yeah, I know 

Ann: peanut is very upset with other dogs. Come here So here's the thing I think it's the same as you know How they say you're only as good as your last book or your last thing. I mean, I think sometimes that's what I worry about it's very possible that i'll not write a good book And I don't want to get lazy I want to make sure that I'm not repeating myself I'm going through edits for the book that's going to come out this summer and I literally have to pull a tarot card, which is new for me because I just bought him a TJ Maxx because [00:08:00] that's the center of all psychic healing.

I don't know 

Elizabeth: which one is better for me in this moment, the fact that you've just admitted that you just bought a thing of tarot cards or that you got them a TJ Maxx. 

Ann: Okay, so what did it say? 

Elizabeth: So what did it say? 

Ann: It said, be confident. You know what you're doing, you've done it and you know it and keep going. it was helpful because when my editor, reads it, and then I get a developmental editor that works with me on book. And so when they're doing it, if they aren't steering me, if they don't really get exactly what I'm doing, their comments will be pushing me in another direction.

And I'll be like, so did I do it wrong? should I be doing that? What's happening? then I have to be like, be confident, you know what you're doing and then I send a note to my friend and I'd be like, do you think I should take this word out because I use like a lot and she'd be like, Ann, be confident.

So I don't know. maybe other writers aren't like that. 

Elizabeth: But I think [00:09:00] everyone's like that. I think the vast majority are, we just all think we're the only one. 

Ann: sure. And I am so willing to talk about it because I think that if people understand that it's hard, 

each sentence is hard and it never gets any easier than the people that are, wading into writing a book, won't feel so bad about themselves when they don't get it exactly right the first time, whenever I remember I read The Handmaid's Tale, the sequel, the one with the green cover, I thought, My God, it feels like she just wrote this in an afternoon, but in the back of it, when you read the acknowledgments, she's like, Oh my God, thank God for my editor who pointed this and this out, because I would never have done it before her.

And I thought, see, Everybody needs this a little bit, but I will say I don't love, I love editing. I do love editing. I don't love the deciphering of have I done it right? Did I do it that way? Keep going. What is this? What am I doing? [00:10:00] That is a that indecision spaces.

It's just part of the art, but it's stressful. 

Elizabeth: So how do you navigate it? Because, for example, with the original thing about people highlighting a passage in fiction. I realized, okay, they're not highlighting it because it's a to do or they want to remember, they're highlighting it because it resonated.

Yeah. Like it's something that you said that a character said that a feeling the way you expressed a feeling of a character, that the reader resonates with. So God forbid that had gotten edited out. I'm sure there were things by the way, and there are things that get edited out that would have resonated with someone, but how has your process evolved now five, six books in 

Further explain this to my editor or do I just say they must know what they're talking about I'll take their notes and run with it. 

Ann: Yeah, that's a good question. And I think what happens for me is I have to go into myself and go, okay, what are you trying to say?

What's this arc? [00:11:00] Do you need more here? Will it pull people out of the story? Does it not allow the reader enough agency to put their own stuff in there? I have to sort out my experience of being a reader, a writer, and a human to get it right One of the things that I do is I write usually my editor is telling me to give them more rather than take stuff out.

They're always saying, let us in here. Let us know. And I, I'm always fighting against that because I'm always like, is it too much? Am I explaining her emotion? Do I need to put it here? Did her actions show it enough? And sometimes the answer is, Yeah, I think it's fine. And other times I'm like, Oh and I try to figure it out. 

Elizabeth: do you get the ability to say, No, I think it's fine. And your editor will say, okay. Yes, I do. 

Ann: Now there are, sometimes I'll be like, okay, I'll say to my editor [00:12:00] who I really respect and admire. I'll say to her, no, you're pushing me in the wrong direction.

That's not the direction I want to go. I'll be like, this is the direction I want to go. You need to help me say this story because I must not be getting it right. And. sometimes, like with the last book, it took her a few times to finally go, Oh, got it. I think a lot of times people that are editing quickly they're used to reading a lot of stories I try really hard to find something universal, but then dig into something a little different than that, It was very important to me that she was not ruined by my mother leaving the lowest fruit is make her miserable. Cause her mother? What about her mother? And I was like, no, see, it was her father.

That is the thing that gets missed I've got something going on right now. That is. a little bit more subtle than the lowest hanging fruit on it. through [00:13:00] her edits, I'm trying to see where I missed that. it's almost like reading the edits for what she missed so that I could get it right, so that she gets it and we can both be like, Oh, I see.

Elizabeth: that was my question. You actually gave me a question, which I don't know the answer to and maybe it's different in different cases, but you were with Lake Union for the last two books. Are you with Lake Union again for this current one? Yeah, and I love that. Same editor.

Same developmental editor. That's amazing. So is that developmental editor? working on multiple books at the same time? 

Ann: I'm sure she is. I think she's on an incredibly tight schedule. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Ann: I think she has to shoot from the hip fast And I think she does a really good job for that.

Elizabeth: But since i'm so immersed in it it's hard. It's really hard. I have to be like, okay, calm down It's fine she's giving you great advice just settle down, That's fascinating to [00:14:00] me because as an editor, I can edit one nonfiction and one memoir at a time, but I could do two nonfictions at a time.

I don't think I could do two fictions at a time. 

Ann: Here's what I think she does. She's probably doing a relay like when I have my edits She's probably working on another one. Yes, so she's probably going like this which must be incredibly difficult to do 

Elizabeth: I really have to give her so much credit because I even struggled to read I finished There's no coming back with this and then as kindle does at the end.

Ann: They're like, oh, do you want to read? I thought you said this would work. I have to have everything written down No me too I thought you said this would work and I was like of course I want that So then I start reading that and i'm also reading the arc for my friend neely alexander's next book Which is coming out in a few months and i'm conflating all the stories I know exactly what you mean, and then you add I think what's hard about This too is that you add a layer of comic [00:15:00] timing.

That's really important And so if she asks for something I have to not only decide whether I need to give it here or not Does it screw with the flow of the story? Does it screw with the comedy? and I have to really be careful with that because comedy is as much about timing It's actually super subtle like whenever anybody says that's hilarious.

Elizabeth: I'm like, is it hilarious? yeah, I think that makes it more hilarious because it's so subtle. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, 

Elizabeth: what comedians supposedly the deal is they're saying the thing that everyone's thinking but is too afraid to say, I think it's similar to that, where in my experience so far with your books you're like I'm in the characters head.

And then I'm thinking what she would be, and then you say it. And so it's hilarious because it's oh, perfect. 

Ann: oh, yeah. And so I think sometimes when I'm doing the edits. I have to be very careful to not, push into the poignancy and [00:16:00] leave the comedy behind or one or the other.

And often when she asks me to do something, I'll be like that's the funny thing. We can go past that. that's just a funny thing. And yeah, so that piece of it is a little bit more difficult. I think sometimes for me to make sure that I don't screw up the timing 

Elizabeth: I didn't mean to interrupt. There's like a small delay, so it sounds for everyone who's stop cutting Ann off. I'm not attempting to . 

Speaker 3: It's totally 

Elizabeth: Yeah, I wanna talk about two things if you're amenable. The first one is, can we talk about the fact that you have a PhD, you're a scientist.

how did it go 

Ann: I probably shouldn't have been a scientist. when I went to college, I became a nurse, that was my degree. No one ever said, Oh, you should write a book. I'd never tried writing before I was a reader, but my parents weren't writers.

I didn't have an easy segue into it. Never occurred to me. I didn't know anything about it. I knew that I wanted to do something other than be a nurse my whole life, cause I wasn't a [00:17:00] very good nurse. you have to give people the right meds every time. 

Elizabeth: funny. 

Ann: I was funny and nice.

Yeah, but not always. 

Elizabeth: know, 

Ann: people bleed out. so I got into a science track, in some ways, science and storytelling but also What I really loved while I started graduate school, because they put me into teaching right away, was teaching, because teaching is storytelling.

I got to be a teacher for years at the college level. I loved it. My professor, though, my mentor, used to say to me on a regular basis, You're the worst writer I've ever met. And he'd do it meanly. He was always mad at me about it. And I'd be like how can I be so bad? But science is You say the same sentence over and over, right?

And so I would fuck around with that. Like I, I'm sorry. Oh, I favorite word. Use it up. Yeah. I changed the words. All right. And he'd be like, we don't care about that. Stop changing. It's the same sentence. so it was no fun for me to write. since I was a writer, I had read [00:18:00] Laurie Moore's Life and some of her short story things, and then I read a couple of early Elizabeth Berg books, I was so moved by both of their humor and poignancy that I thought, oh, this sounds like something That I could do maybe, but I still didn't try.

And then I got tenure the weight of research let up a little bit. there was a contest in town and I entered it. what's interesting about that is that Christy Clancy, author of Second Home, which is going to be a movie with the guy, Jeremy Lannister from Game of Thrones.

wrote Second Home and Shoulder Season, she does not live far from me, and we both won first and second place. Oh my gosh. that's how I know her. In fact, that's how we became friends, but it was Such a like aha moment in so many ways. Not only was it a ha moment likemaybe I can do something like this.

I often say that [00:19:00] it was probably one of the happiest moments in my life, short of having a baby, I was so excited, and then the other piece of it was. It unlocked. an idea for a story because they gave us a piece of art and we had to write a story about it in 24 hours.

You had to write it in 24 hours. Oh, that was the contest? Yeah. Okay. And so I looked at the picture and thought, this is what writing is. You put a picture in your head and write a story about who's in it. And that unlocked everything for me. And then I couldn't stop. I just couldn't stop.

Is that 

Elizabeth: still 

Ann: your process today? Yeah, because I'm a very visual learner and so I'm sure it is my process still. I think really hard and I see the scenes. 

Elizabeth: Do you see a scene first or do you get an idea like for example, what if it's the father who leaves and not the mother or what if they're upset about the father not the mother.

Ann: what do you 

Elizabeth: play with first. 

Ann: It's a little different every time, like for example, [00:20:00] that one. I had written a book that wasn't working. It did not work In fact, I was in the last edits of it with my publisher And I was really struggling it was during covet my ex husband who i'm very close to Was in the hospital for 45 days with sepsis my kids were everybody It was a wreck and I couldn't get that book to work I said i'm close to 

Elizabeth: my ex husband, too So i'm glad we have that in common because everyone always looks at me cross eyed when I say that And everybody thinks you should get back together, and I'm just 

Ann: I like it.

He's great. I like it that he lives over there. And I like that he's 

Elizabeth: over 

Ann: It's just nice. So I took a joke, one line out of that book, and I made a story about it. I said in the book, something like she made her money from being a costumer. for all of the Nora Ephron movies made into dogs, right?

then I thought, okaywho would that be the worst possible job for? And then I built the character out of that. Now that doesn't sometimes it doesn't always do that way. [00:21:00] Like in, in the dog year, I watched a woman shoplift at TJ Maxx Yep. And she looked so ungodly miserable, but she was also very well dressed and I could not stop thinking about her. so I wrote a story about that. It's a joke I make, and then I jot it down, and I look at it, and I think, 

Elizabeth: So is that kind of common for you to start you get an idea, and then you'll write a little story, and then you just keep building it?

here's what I do. 

Ann: I come, I just noodle around with an idea, like I think about something funny, and if it sticks with me, then I think, I might want to write a book about this. And then, what I do is, I drill down why I think that's funny, 

I get down to the seed of why it's funny and usually it's painful. And so I think really hard about why I think that's painful. which usually has to do with somebody's core wound, probably mine. 

Speaker 3: Sure. 

Ann: and then I'll start to think about it. And I think, You know who would really hate this [00:22:00] situation?

And then I start to build out a full character and I asked myself a bunch of questions to build it out so that I know exactly what point I'm trying to make. And usually that point comes from something that I thought was funny in the original thing. Like the book that I'm writing right now, it's about a poor man, Tony Robbins, who takes over a kid's theater camp and makes it into a camp for anxious and depressed adults.

But he's really bad at it. And so he doesn't have enough money to pay for actual professionals. So he staffs it with anxious and depressed college students. And it's called bummer camp. And I, what I wrote, I am, was so fascinated in this idea because here's what I was thinking. First I thought I don't know who it was I was thinking about at the time, could have been my husband, could have been my brother, who is a little odd little bird, but I was thinking, wouldn't it be great for [00:23:00] people to be able to go to life rehab like they do for addiction rehab, like how great would it be that you could be like, I'm going to take 22 days and go live someplace And figure my shit out.

So then I thought it would be great if it was at a camp. Cause I was a camp nurse once a long time ago. 

Elizabeth: And 

Ann: then I said, camps are staffed with high school kids all the time.

And I went Oh my God, that would be so funny. Then it was easy. I don't know exactly what I'm going to write about. the protagonist isn't that man. The protagonist is the woman who grew up at that camp and got her childhood sort of stolen because she was the oldest, most responsible kid.

And so she's had to distance herself from this sort of sinkhole of a camp that was this theater kid's camp. And she gets hauled back in because of, shenanigans. And I wanted to explore, a couple of things. The hyper responsibility that goes on when we ask people for help.

And then the opposite side of that is when the person that was asked to [00:24:00] help doesn't help, the guilt that they feel. from not, satisfying what everybody expected them to do. There's that piece. And then there's this piece about that. Wouldn't it be great for all of us to have a place to go where we could feel less anxious and depressed?

What do we do with those? This book is going to be it's probably my most wild book But also the one that I was able to lean into the most of my sort of quirky way of writing 

Elizabeth: Do you assess pretty early on what's the internal conflict, what's the external conflict, what's the goal, all those sorts of things?

Yeah. 

Ann: Yeah, because if I know exactly that, then I can have a lot of fun with it. But if I'm trying to figure that out as I'm writing, it'll be like a big lumpy potato. I'll just run with every funny thing that I think is funny. And there won't be a story. Everybody will be like this was fun, but I don't know where are we [00:25:00] going?

Elizabeth: So how fast once you have that. Idea. How quickly can you draft out draft one? are you a person who whips out the first draft and then goes in and adds more layers or do you do it all slowly and methodically? 

Ann: So I write like a person paints a wall.

I start it and then I go over it again and I go over it all the way down to the end. And then I go over it again. I layer change. So as I learn the characters and as they, change with everything that's happening, I have to go back up and change the first chapter 

towards the end. when I'm getting down to the hand in that first draft, I go from the last three chapters up to the first three chapters, over and over again to get it right. 

Elizabeth: So I'm obsessed with the first sentence of the first chapter and the last sentence of the last chapter.

Ann: That's the piece that either hooks them and keeps them. 

Elizabeth: think about it. [00:26:00] Afterwards, you put the book down and your jaw is just on the ground. Yeah. Yeah. What just happened? Okay. You tall poppy writers. So I went down that rabbit hole too.

And here's the craziest thing. Amy and Pellizzari. Am I saying her last name? I know Amy and I have to reach out to her because I don't remember how I know her, but I've known her, for at least a decade. I can't remember now, but I don't believe in coincidence.

I'll have to go get a tarot deck from TJ Maxx and find out like what this means, but how did tall poppy come to be? I'm curious about your, if you're as much as you're willing to share your journey from being a nurse to being a full time writer and doing the tall poppy writer thing, so often people are.

confused because they're being sold some stuff That's not true about you know You write a book and you make a million dollars in five minutes and you can quit your job And you can [00:27:00] make this your full time living and they think they're doing something wrong they also very much would love to make a reasonable or more than reasonable living writing What was that transition like for you 

Ensure that when you were doing the very first book i'm assuming that wasn't like a runaway I didn't make any money in that 

Ann: I still don't make any money on that. Really? Yeah, I don't think anybody reads that book. And that book got edited to its last breath, which was a bummer for me, but it was my first book and I couldn't do anything about it.

it's been a slog. It's been tough. I think probably I felt that way. I remember when the book came out, it was the day of my divorce and I had pneumonia. that was, in 2010, so I probably joined Twitter in 2009.

Social media wasn't what it is or was publishing houses don't do a great job pushing your stuff out. after I'd like you just fine when you're not around, I could see that I, even though I made a list with that book, I could see my career going into the toilet.

And I was thinking, cause I didn't have enough [00:28:00] sales. My publisher wasn't interested in my next book. I was even though you made a list, even though I made a list. Yeah. Was that USA today? Was that when, yeah, it was USA today. I could see the writing on the wall. this is not going to be good for me.

even though That publisher was Tyrus Books at the time, Simon Schuster bought the book. they did a great job they were amazing, but, you can only do so much, right? When I created The Tall Poppies, I think I did that just before the dog year, my thought was, this is the only way that I'm gonna live.

this is the only way that I'm gonna survive as an author, if I create this and everybody Joins in and sends everything out I probably did save my career, but not in the way that you'd think 

Nothing moves the needle and everything moves the needle. So what that means is if I can't move the needle with, 50 women shouting out on my launch day, nobody can. However, I do know that is also bringing in [00:29:00] small numbers of people all the time. So over the course of a career, it's terrific.

The other thing is the tall poppies. We were the first group that sort of decided that generosity was the way we were going to go.

And we got diverse. Titles, diverse authors, like we were the first group that did that, and then COVID hit, social media was also changing during that time, but because we were the firstI had Name recognition in New York because the agents knew who I was and the publishers had a sense But the publishers were still like we don't give a shit because she still doesn't have the numbers but the agents did care and you know who cared was lake union I saw them cherry picking some of the poppies and then they signed up for my newsletter I got rid of one agent, got a new agent because he said, if I'm going to take you on, you should be a tall poppy.

I am the tall poppy. And he was like, Oh, interesting. No, but it made a big difference. So I said to that agent, don't pitch me to [00:30:00] anyone, but Amazon to Lake Union, I only want to go to Lake Union. I knew that they had the reach and the distribution.

And I knew that they treated their authors really well, even more so than the big five, they do their best, they don't have unlimited money, and give the money to the people with the largest advances. Also, they have distribution through bookstores, and the media outlets are so few and far between now that only the big names get that.

And the big names get, chosen from above, and the rest of us are just like spaghetti, right? they probably look at the bottom line, They take a debut. And they say debut and that in and of itself sparks interest and they probably do the math.

If we have a person with their third book and then we have a debut The third book doesn't make as much as they debut get rid of her get another debut 

Elizabeth: It's fascinating 

Ann: now 

Elizabeth: is it your experience and [00:31:00] understanding that some of these smaller boutiques? So there's lake union, which is an amazon imprint. There's zibby books. There's rise writers They're all kind of smaller boutiques. There's a greater partnership You There is. 

Ann: Yeah. I love that. I really hope we continue to see those places flourish. I think the problem isdiscovery for authors, of course, and 

it's a problem of demand. The Britney Spears book has such high demand. but there's very little demand for a new author now there's a little more demand for Ann Garvin books, but If I hadn't had Lake Union and their distribution and their huge commitment to me, it wouldn't have happened for me either.

what makes their distribution different from the big five? The big five doesn't have, Amazon. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Ann: Right. even though they put it up on Amazon, Amazon has all the levers. they can say Hey, do you want to read her not last book? Do you want to read another one?

when you wake up in the morning [00:32:00] on my launch day, you could open your Kindle and there on the front is the book, right? So they have, they don't have that. And the real hard thing for me is, The hardest thing in all ways is how devoted I am to independent bookstores, 

independent bookstores didn't know about me even when I was With the big five meeting the independent bookstores because it was a discovery issue. It's hard to pit bookstores against the authors because of The distribution, right?

the other piece of it is big media. There's so few magazines, there's so few big media. if you don't hit the Reese list or the Oprah list or something, what's left? the only people that get those every time are Jodi Picoult or Jennifer Weiner or some random pick, 

What about their next book? And that's where it gets really hard because there's so much noise that if Amazon wasn't sending me out all the time you would forget Correct. 

Elizabeth: and 

Ann: It's 

Elizabeth: I saw the book And I said, I've got to get that.

[00:33:00] And then life took over, right? It's just, that's what happens. And so I recently heard that it used to be that you had to see something between nine and 13 times. Now it's like 26. because our attention is being pulled everywhere and those of us with attention issues Are in a lot more trouble.

can we talk about self publishing just a little bit? I know that's not your I talk about it all the time. Yeah, do you okay? That's what i've done since oh four. It's probably what i'll continue to do I've been very transparent and worked very hard To not say, I have a problem with traditional publishing because I don't, I've never done it.

First of all. I have a lot of friends who have done it and have been quite happy. I have a lot of friends who have done it and said never again. I have a lot of friends who have done it and been happy and then done it and not been, I think it's very dependent upon who your editor is and what's in retrograde 

There is more opportunity, today, for truly committed Self published or hybrid published authors and we're not talking about the [00:34:00] people who are like you can write a book in five minutes and sell We're not talking about that. Okay, we're talking about people who are just as committed as their traditionally published counterparts where is there a leg up with traditional publishing for what reason does that still feel like a really good?

Fit 

Speaker 3: you. 

Ann: That's such a good question. Here's the answer I don't want to know. I was a nurse, PhD, exercise, physiology. I want to learn that thing. I'm 62. you're 62. I am. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. I dyed my hair. I think that makes a big difference. 

I feel so great about you just made my whole I'm excited now. Okay. Excited. What? A date? What? What's that? Is it because we should date? Maybe. I don't know. I feel just so excited. I've been lamenting that I turned 50 last year. And it wasn't awful, but it was [00:35:00] rough. I would see other people post on their Facebook, it's my 50th, and I'd see it and go, my God, you're so old.

And then I thought, oh, fuck. I, that's what's, I'm, Hi, yeah, and I'm still getting used to it. It's like having five kids. People say, how many kids do you have? And I say five and I still catch myself. I feel great 

Ann: about this. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, Some of it is just and plus I came to writing late.

How old were you when your first book when the first one came 

Elizabeth: 2010. Do we have to do math? Yeah. Okay. I'm not good at that without a calculator. 16 years ago, so 48, 49? Yeah. Is that right? That's about right, yeah. Oh, I love this. Okay. 

Ann: So I had to learn how to write a book and figure out how to do a cover and then also run the tall poppies like I would rather die.

I can't do that. it's too much you should have Kay Bratt on she is the author of many books, but also she is Friends in Fiction. Is it Friends in Fiction, or is it, no, My Book Friends on Facebook, and I can [00:36:00] introduce you she's fantastic, she has learned so much about all of the stuff behind the scenes and that, that's the thing that I admire most about really what you're talking about.

Those committed self published people, the hustle. But I feel like I just can't hustle like that. I built this program. I teach at MFA. I can't hustle and learn algorithms and Facebook. I know I should, but I just can't I'm too tired. 

Elizabeth: I feel the same way I love the writing and I don't mind the publishing.

I think because I'm a masochist, but the marketing. I love talking. I love connecting with people and talking about books, not just mine, certainly, but all books and stories and just meeting people. And that's a great marketing technique. But to have to just get out there is painful.

Yeah, it feels quite painful. And I think it's a misnomer, speaking of Jodi, she was quoted within the last, couple of weeks as saying that indie authors, whether self or hybrid published are just taking the easy [00:37:00] way out.

They just don't want to do the work of trying to quarry an agent or whatever. When I heard that the other day, I thought, my God, there is nothing easy. I don't think there's an easy way out in publishing period, but certainly one of the greatest challenges for an indie author is the distribution.

And how did you phrase it? Getting the word out. 

Ann: And I don't have the distribution. That's the thing that's so daunting to me. And then, you either have to hire or be a cover designer, you have to do all the copy. That is not for wimps. I sometimes think if my publisher dumped me, what would I do?

I just don't want to think about it because if I end up having to learn something I'd be like, publish you. 

Elizabeth: Okay. We got to find someone else to take care of the marketing, but I'll publish it and I'll argue. Zibi, I'm sure she'd get in there before I would, 

It is really challenging and there are a lot of traditionally published authors who are using a large portion of their [00:38:00] advance to hire publicists to hire marketers because they don't get that from their traditional house.

They know they're not going to but the expectation is still there I have a good friend who's traditionally published and when I asked her Why not self publish she said what you said? She said I know myself and if it all falls on me To get all that done. it's never going to happen. 

Ann: No, I'll get an ulcer.

And because I'm also the girl that had oh, I have to do all that. Okay. I'll do all that because that's what I have to do. And then, it would take all the fun out of it for me because I just would stress too much. And I have to say like in the beginning, just building the poppies and writing books and the rest of it.

I don't even know how I did that. So if I had to now pivot again and try To do my own sales and all the rest of it. I think I would die. I can't imagine it. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. And if you're going to do it [00:39:00] yourself, which many people do for one reason or another, not the least reason is. finances, right?

If you can't commit 10, 15 whatever is required. And it doesn't have to be that much, butto have a community where you are launching each other. Yes. And you're speaking to your people about their books and they're speaking to their people about your books.

sometimes it's not a good fit, obviously, If you're talking to a thriller group about a rom com, but that sort of connection piece, you can't replicate it. No, you can't. 

But what do you say? To first time either aspiring authors or authors who have released one book and then they're oh my god Can I do this again? What's something you've learned? 

Ann: So if you're an aspiring author and this is difficult I think you have to find someone that really tells you the truth about, your writing, the more they tell the truth, the better you can get, right?

I read this once and I [00:40:00] wanted to reject it so bad, but I couldn't. the number one reason why people won't get published is impatience. 

Elizabeth: So I have a real on my Instagram that says the one thing every successful author needs to have more of, including me is patience.

Ann: I wanted to reject that because everybody's in a big hurry and I was too. I do think that's probably the number one thing I would tell, get good advice and then, which is good, right? Good advice. But and have patience. And then for those, for an author that's got one book, here's what I would say to them.

I would say, keep going. Because I do think that's, the number one thing is you got to keep going. But I also think it's very smart to say to yourself what am I actually getting out of this? Do I want to continue it? And I felt that way about everything. So the reason that I write is that when I'm writing, I am in the closest state of flow I've ever been in.

I'm enjoying it. I laugh. It's funny. I [00:41:00] don't like other things related to it, but when I'm having a good timeI love it. I love to actually write, but I have to laugh because Fran Lebowitz said that anybody who says they like to write, they must be pretty bad at it. And that's where she's coming from.

if there are people out there that just want to have one book in the bookstore, but now they're faced with because we take our goals right? And so now they're like, I just want two or I just want to sell more books.

Elizabeth: to the front of the bookstore 

Ann: And so I think you have to get really good about saying, my goal is always the same. I just want to keep writing. Number two is I want more readers, but if I don't get more readers, I don't get to keep writing.

So those things are together, right? Unless I decided to do self publishing, which we already decided is probably Not for you. 

Elizabeth: And this is fascinating because one thing that I say to a lot of the, Authors that I'm working with who get stuck because we all get stuck. sometimes there's a feeling of [00:42:00] I don't even know if I want to keep doing this.

And I will just look at them and say, you don't have to. And I remind myself of that as well. When you remember that you have a choice. It might be different if you're under contract with a publisher, but when you know, you have a choiceof whether or not you want to continue or if you are under contract, you can choose not to do another one after that.

Ann: was reading many years ago, I read this story about this older man who wanted to be the oldest man to climb Everest he had tried at least once before and didn't summit. he had been practicing and hiking all over trying to get himself fit enough to do it he went there and it's several thousand dollars.

Not a small thing. Plus you have to be incredibly fit he got to hillary's step right there at the top and they said there's a storm coming We can summit but The storm might come and you need to know that if the storm comes it's going to be game over for us this is your only chance we have to do it now because we can't camp here We got to go the guy said I [00:43:00] want to be able to see my grandson So we let he didn't summon and i'm like to me They should give him the god dang thing because he should get best decision of the year award.

it takes a lot of courage to give up. some people for whatever reason, mental health or otherwise, should give up. I have some friends in that position right now.

First book, really struggling. But those people need to keep going because they're never going to be happy unless they do that doesn't mean they're going to do three four five But for now, they should keep going some people will do it to the extent that they let their health go right and that They're nothing.

It's worth your health. Absolutely. I taught stress management for years and sometimes I followed it and sometimes I don't. And when I don't, I pay for it. I have to step back and reassess, figure out what I'm doing. , 

Elizabeth: I think, 

Ann: think that's true in everything.

Elizabeth: So many things. 

Ann: I was in Europe with my friend and I looked over and there was this. Window that said no [00:44:00] wasted days. And I said They should have another window that says, you should waste a day. 

No. It depends how you define a wasted day. Some people would say, if you just lie on your couch all day with a book and your dog in your lap and you know that's a wasted day, that's a best day. This was like a sports store. So of course it was right. But I'm like a whole lot of people.

Some people need that. Like some people need a little motivation, right? They need someone to go just, it's fine. and I think there's probably a lot of writers like that, that are just, they are good girls too. And they're trying to do everything right. And they're running themselves ragged because what they see is that sales didn't go and somehow or another they're believing You didn't do it, right?

Elizabeth: Correct. 

Ann: And that is something everybody else has a different experience. I wanna assure people that, once that book is out in the world, there's not really that much you can do. the difference between 92 and a [00:45:00] thousand reviews, that's not me. It is a little bit because people like the book and they keep reading it, of course. But the first shifting of those letters, those lovers are coming from someone else. That's larger than me. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Unfortunately, that actually stymies some authors, right?

Because they feel there's this huge wall in front of me that I cannot climb over, go around, or push through. It is immovable. And so therefore, what's the point? And because I am, again, masochistic, I have a sign right up here that says everything is possible. I'm the girl who's always trying to figure out, okay, if we can't go around it, over it, through it, under it, what can we do?

Yeah, me too. 

Ann: Me too. And I always say I'm the original workaround girl, right? Like I never got through anything going through the front door but I also think I have to tell myself you don't have to rise to every occasion [00:46:00] And that's hard for people like us, right?

It's hard. So the woman that Stephanie Burns, who is also an inspiring writer, who who helps me run the poppy, she's my COO. I, told her that every time I come up with a new idea, she's supposed to say to me, no new ideas. That's Her job now to say no new ideas.

No, nothing new. Because I just because I think I could do it. I moved towards it and that I don't have 

Elizabeth: to do that. 

Ann: It's 

Elizabeth: I do the same thing. I think it's a personality thing. I remember reading at the end of whichever one I'm currently in that Tiffany hates Martin.

is she your current editor? 

Ann: She is my developmental editor. she has been for the last three books. Melissa Valentine is my acquiring editor now. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. But Tiffany does the developmental on it before it gets to. Lake Union? 

Ann: they so Lake Union, I send it to my acquisition editor.

She [00:47:00] reads it, brings Tiffany in on it. Got you. Yeah, and so Tiffany works through Amazon and she and I have written three books together. And I think she is brilliant. 

Elizabeth: I think she is I have her book intuitive editing and I cannot tell you to how many people I have recommended that book because it is a master class Times 75 in a book in fact, 

I just instagram messaged you the other day tiffany yates martin And I said, I want you to dev edit The novel I'm working on. So I'm going to need you to let me know if you're open to that and what your schedule is. 

Ann: he does do that. she works at the speed of light.

I don't know how anyone works as fast as she does. she must work With intuition She's just so Speedy I must drive her berserk. 

Elizabeth: I doubt that I don't see how you could drive anyone berserk Unless you and I both drive everyone berserk, which I assume is a possibility But it's not one that I am gonna choose to consider.

I think she just [00:48:00] is so clear On the formulaic like we don't want to think that books are formulaic, but they are You know the artist in us like doesn't want to think about that. We want to be creative, but She knows what these books need to keep people turning She understands story so well, and so I think maybe that's what lends itself To her ability to be so quick.

Ann: Yeah. I find her focus must be Incredible and the other thing she's really good at that I really am not very good at is she's so detail oriented, I'm detail oriented, of course, because I have to write all these details, but she'll be like, wait, what?

And I'll be like, how did you see that? Of course, you're right. I need to fix that. she and I just am always, she pulls the 

Elizabeth: needle out of the haystack. Yes. That's a great quality in an editor. it feels like it's not in line with the story, but it absolutely is. If the main character has a brother in chapter one, but then in chapter eight, they have a [00:49:00] sister.

I swear this is the last question. What are you reading now? 

Ann: Okay. I'll give you a little blurb I'm reading the memory of lavender from Amy running and you can't get it yet because I'm blurbing it.

Oh, how fun. I'm reading that. And then the book that I have my masters of fine arts students read is City of Thieves he was the showrunner for Game of Thrones, so he really gets the story. I want my students to read it so they really understand.

Elizabeth: act play. It's beautifully done. Somebody else just recommended that book to me, and I can't remember who it was. And this is why I asked, because I just want my TBR pile to be toppling, which it is. I need new shelves. I need all the things, because Every time someone recommends a book and I love it No one has ever recommended.

I've only been doing this for a few episodes now when I remember I write it down but nobody is mentioning a book that's top of mind for everyone, Which I love. 

Ann: I'll tell you what [00:50:00] book I read recently that I absolutely loved I think it's the house is on fire it was written and then she was supposed to go down You Like Georgia to talk and she was going to talk about slavery 

they told her she couldn't come. And then she, so it was a, yes, it was a big pooh ha about that. And and she was like, I just wrote about what's. It's, what's true that is factual and based. And so I read that book and boy, is it ever a good book. It's just a really good book. I'm surprised it got any kind of pushback.

It wasn't anything new in terms of slavery. 

Elizabeth: I cannot thank you enough. It's such fun to talk to you. Let's keep in touch. I would love that. I just think you're so fun. Oh, thank you.

Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, this is your friendly reminder to follow or subscribe, leave a quick review and share it with someone, has a great story or message, [00:51:00] but isn't sure what to do next. Also remember to check out publish a profitable book. com for book writing resources and tips

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